Lightsaber forms into Sword styles


Conversions


Ok so was thinking of turning some of the lightsaber forms into sword styles......I need cool names for the and feed back as to if I on the right track with feat swaps for the conversions.

So here is my first attempt.

Sword style 4 mastery (combat)
You are skilled Form 4 sword combat and can use your natural agility to gain an edge against you opponent.
Prerequisites: Weapon finesse, Weapon focus (any sword), combat reflexes, +7 BAB
Benefit: You now add one and a half times your Dexterity bonus (instead of Strength bonus) to your sword damage roll when wielding a sword one handed, and two times your Dexterity bonus (instead of strength) to your damage roll when wielding a sword two-handed.


Uthak wrote:

Ok so was thinking of turning some of the lightsaber forms into sword styles......I need cool names for the and feed back as to if I on the right track with feat swaps for the conversions.

So here is my first attempt.

Sword style 4 mastery (combat)
You are skilled Form 4 sword combat and can use your natural agility to gain an edge against you opponent.
Prerequisites: Weapon finesse, Weapon focus (any sword), combat reflexes, +7 BAB
Benefit: You now add one and a half times your Dexterity bonus (instead of Strength bonus) to your sword damage roll when wielding a sword one handed, and two times your Dexterity bonus (instead of strength) to your damage roll when wielding a sword two-handed.

Why do you have it at 1.5 one handed and twice for two-handed? I could understand a full switch between (as the agile enchantment doesn't allow 1.5 twohanded AFAIK) but this doen't seem fully balanced unless you expect someone to never dump strength for dex using this feat and I highly doubt it.

Silver Crusade

One-handed sword to get 1.5 times dexterity bonus to damage, x2 when two-handed, replacing strength ? This is ridiculously broken.

Just change the Dervish Dance feat to apply with all light and finesseable one-handed weapons, basically getting the Agile property when wielding one, and you'll be closer to something balanced.


He is simply posting a nearly word for word translation from the Star Wars RPG line. They had obviously not thought that it was broken, however almost everyone I knew who wanted to play a jedi did want to play using that form, so there is issue.

In its defense I guess you could say that it is a large feat invest, but those feats are worthwhile.

I would suggest adding another feat prereq and making the BAB higher.


I want to show that not all sword play is about strength, that is why I had Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite, as well as keeping combat reflexes.

I kept the 1.5 to dmg & x2 to dmg because in the RAW:
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

Just changing Dervish Dance so that it worked with all swords I feel would have taken away from that feats cultural flavor as I believe that feat first appeared in the 3.5 pathfinder Qudara book.

I want to keep weapon specialization out of the prereqs so that the sword styles aren't a fighter only thing, the BAB at +7 means all the first
tier combat classes(fighter,barbarian,ranger) will hit that at 7th lvl while the second tier combat classes(Rogue,Cleric,Bard) wont get there till 10th lvl. now in the Star Wars RPG in place of a BAB prereq it had a lvl prereq of 7th lvl meaning both the Jedi guardian & the Jedi consular could get the feat at the same time. I could see making the
BAB prereq a +8 but no higher.


Uthak wrote:

I want to show that not all sword play is about strength, that is why I had Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite, as well as keeping combat reflexes.

I kept the 1.5 to dmg & x2 to dmg because in the RAW:
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

I think what is unbalancing about the high bonuses to damage from your version is that Dex based fighters already gain a buttload of advantage from having a high Dex outside of attack and damage bonuses. They get Initiative, AC, Reflex saves, and skill bonuses to boot. The Strength fighter gets ONLY attack and damage bonuses, so adding 1 1/2x or 2x damage bonus is just a way for their high Strength to shine. The Dex character (rogues in particular) are already shining with their other abilities.

Really, I think just being able to add your Dex to damage instead of strength is enough of a boost to most Dex-based fighters. The Swashbuckler in my group gets 7 attacks a round, and that would up his DPR by 14 points without Cat's Grace up. The Bladesinger has no Str bonus, so her damage goes up by 6 points per attack with this style.

That's a lot to give to characters who would have been taking most of the pre-reqs for this feat already. Only the high level requirement (which is fine at +7 BAB) makes it close to balanced.


Why do i remember so many things?

Please note that there were many "styles" of lightsaber combat as noted here.
http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat .php

Also, look at the wookiepedia for more info.

The most interesting is that many of these lightsaber styles were modeled after actual fighting styles of our past, only not with the glowing sticks and the using Ewoks as things to test your blades upon.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Joes Pizza wrote:

Why do i remember so many things?

Please note that there were many "styles" of lightsaber combat as noted here.
http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat .php

Also, look at the wookiepedia for more info.

The most interesting is that many of these lightsaber styles were modeled after actual fighting styles of our past, only not with the glowing sticks and the using Ewoks as things to test your blades upon.

@Uthak is refering to a series of feats found in the Star Wars RPG, pen and paper style.


Why not have that style allow you to add your dexterity as damage on top of your strength. Make it a straight improvement so two handed users get

Dmg + 1 1/2 Str + Dex

1 handed get

Dmg + Str + Dex

__
You could argue since it is s style that obviously certain styles only work with certain weapons so it only works with using a weapon one handed.


John Templeton wrote:
Joes Pizza wrote:

Why do i remember so many things?

Please note that there were many "styles" of lightsaber combat as noted here.
http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat .php

Also, look at the wookiepedia for more info.

The most interesting is that many of these lightsaber styles were modeled after actual fighting styles of our past, only not with the glowing sticks and the using Ewoks as things to test your blades upon.

@Uthak is refering to a series of feats found in the Star Wars RPG, pen and paper style.

Oops, my bad


lets add all stats to everything. that'll balance out the system


AM NOT HELPING wrote:
lets add all stats to everything. that'll balance out the system

Not a bad idea in terms of balance.


How does it look now

Sword Finesse Mastery (combat)
You are skilled at finesse sword combat and can use your natural agility to gain an edge against you opponent.
Prerequisites: Weapon finesse, Weapon focus (any sword), combat reflexes, +7 BAB
Benefit: You now your Dexterity bonus (in addition to Strength bonus) to your sword damage roll when wielding a sword you have weapon focus with.
Special: The sword used for this feat need not benefit from the Weapon Finesse Feat (ex. You can use this feat with a long sword).

Silver Crusade

Uthak wrote:

How does it look now

Sword Finesse Mastery (combat)
You are skilled at finesse sword combat and can use your natural agility to gain an edge against you opponent.
Prerequisites: Weapon finesse, Weapon focus (any sword), combat reflexes, +7 BAB
Benefit: You now your Dexterity bonus (in addition to Strength bonus) to your sword damage roll when wielding a sword you have weapon focus with.
Special: The sword used for this feat need not benefit from the Weapon Finesse Feat (ex. You can use this feat with a long sword).

Still not balanced. High str + high dex + this feat : more damage than a strength based fighter, which is still ridiculous.

Again, make it Dervish Dance or equivalent to a feat version of the Agile property for all light and finesseable weapons, and you'll have something balanced. This isn't.
I'm laughing just picturing how I could make a whip fighter tripping, disarming and dealing lots of damage each round, without an kind of drawbacks. That's basically a minimum +2/+5 to damage bonus for all trips builds, when weapon specialization is +4 maximum with two feats.

Feats that are (maybe) balanced under a specific d20 system will not be when translating to another ; and just because a feat existed in 3.5 does not mean it is good to use for Pathfinder, especially since Agile and Dervish Dance are the current, modern takes on the dex-to-damage concept made to work with Pathfinder coming from Paizo themselves.


I don't really understand what you're trying to do here...
Lightsaber forms are modeled after modified real fighting styles, but that doesn't mean you can wield solid metal weapons the same way you can wield a lightsaber (as in, use lightsaber forms with solid weapons).
Weight IS an issue. Inertia IS an issue. Target's physical body stopping solid things while lightsabers go right through IS an issue.
IMO, you shouldn't be able to use greatswords efficiently while dumping str.
YMMV, and of course yo can houserule whatever you want.

That said... I'd also just refluff the dervish feat, or just call it superior agility (prereq bab 7, weapon focus, + something you won't have anyway) and let it treat chosen weapons as if they had the agile enhancement.


Jedi where MAD, so this feat made playing a Jed much easier. Since Star Wars d20 didn't give AC from armor, but a "defense bonus" from all classes that actually scaled pretty well, and all armor was replaced with damage reduction, having a High Dex "which still gave you Dex AC" and being probably the A MELEE CLASS IN A SETTING WHERE EVERYONE USES GUNS AND GUNS DO A LOT OF DAMAGE,"3d6 was a hand blaster. Some of the bigger non vehicle guns got up to 3d12 or higher" the guy using a lightsaber was pretty much the only guy running through the battle field.

Jedi Guardian and Jedi Consular needed Dex more then strength.

In that sense that feat was pretty useful, considering it was a class specific feat "it required 7 levels of a Jedi class".

The game as a whole valued characters fighting multiple targets as appose to fighting giant dragons and giants. "Although those existed like Kryat Dragons and Rancors". So Being able to kill one storm trooper in one attack when he had less then 30 health at level 7 meant nothing when you consider that there are probably 20 more in the room and more coming. "Storm trooper accuracy from the Imperial sharpshooter school :p"

Not to mention force powers where based off your "health" or vitality. "not your real health buy close enough"

I could imagine 1.5 damage with two hands. You have one hand on the bottom of the hilt that adds more to the swing for more of momentum. Considering if you make it stay as a level 7 "or a +7 bab" feat, that should be fair. I would say tough, that even though you are allowed to two hand a one-handed sword, you still are not allowed to use a weapon that requires two hands.

I don't think you should add both ability scores to it, unless you are very strict about your ability scores, since that could mean someone who rolls two 18s could easily do far more damage, granted they got lucky.

if you want to make Dervish dancer still a viable feat while this feat is in place you can make it so that you can ONLY use this feat while using both hands on a weapon, and maybe still allow two handed weapons, considering you are asking for weapon finesse, I don't think there are any weapons that can.

Dervish Dancer ask for martial weapon proficiency, weapon finesse, and dis-Allows you using shields.

You are asking this feat for a +7 base attack (which would be level 10 for other high dex classes that would benefit like rogue and monk), weapon finesse, weapon focus, and combat reflexes. This a pretty costly feat, and you are getting it reasonably late, while dervish dancer you can get pretty early (level 2).

You could instead maybe have Dervish dancer as a requirement for this feat, that that people who wanted to use their dex bonus for damage and where going sword and board, two weapon fighting, or wanted to use two handed weapons?

Just throwing ideas around.


Sounds like the lightsaber was wielded sorta like a Katana.
Just use those rules.


The thing about converting lightsaber forms to sword forms is that lightsabers weigh next to nothing compared to a metal blade. A lightsaber requires virtually no strength to use effectively, being a universal edge and whatnot.

So lightsaber forms, while based on real-world combat styles, are adapted in such a way as to make use of the near-weightlessness of the lightsaber. There is no way in hell you're gonna be able to get double-dex to damage out of any metal weapon and make the fluff remotely believable.


Well as I have gotten nothing but brow beaten about this sense putting this up, I will forever hang up my hat as a game writer/ developer.

The few of you that didn't beat me with the "how dare you think out of the box" stick, I thank you.

Silver Crusade

Please. Were you called stupid or anything in the same vein by anyone here ?

You're suggesting mechanics, people rightfully point out that they are broken by showing exemples of how the mechanic you suggest is currently handled under the system, and how yours in comparison can be abused.
You get advices on how to make your concept work in a balanced way that will gimp no one nor encourage power creep in your game.

Then you repost a feat that goes against half what has been said previously, and complain because we point out that you still produced something unbalanced and easily abusable.

No "beating" there, just pointing out the design mistakes. If you didn't want honest criticism by Pathfinder's rules lawyers, why even ask to begin with ? There is "thinking out of the box", and there is "ignoring advices, system balance and existing mechanics just for the sake of originality".

EDIT : Also, I apologize if the previous posts have been deemed as rude. Wasn't the intent, only honest criticism intended as said previously.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Uthak wrote:

Well as I have gotten nothing but brow beaten about this sense putting this up, I will forever hang up my hat as a game writer/ developer.

The few of you that didn't beat me with the "how dare you think out of the box" stick, I thank you.

What people were pointing out is this:

1) Replacing Str's bonus to damage with Dex horribly lopsides balance in favor of dex-based builds. Literally, a Str based fighter has nothing to contribute to a fight.

2) Using one feat to add Dex to damage represents a scaling damage bonus from one feat that applies to all weapons. Compare with Power Attack, that at least gives a penalty to hit, and Weapon Spec, that gives a +2 with ONE WEAPON.
This MIGHT be a viable feat if you merely had it replace (Greater) weapon specialization, and thus made it fighter only.
Paizo has been pretty careful to give damage bonuses out in fixed amounts. Damage that scales with an ability score gets lopsided really fast without a balance to it.
Note: There's a dex to damage feat in Tome of 9 Swords, but it's limited to a handful of smaller weapons, and you have to be in a Shadow Hand Stance to use them.

3) A Lightsaber is, in Paizo terms, a Wraithstrike weapon that works against EVERYTHING...i.e. all touch attacks, all the time. You can't block it, or parry it, and most armor does nothing against it...it's all edge, a slice of plasma that with a flick of your wrist can cut a man in two. It's not even as heavy as your average baton.
Of COURSE you wield this weapon with Dex...and jedi use telekinesis on top of it. You don't need Strength for it...there's no brute force needed. The only thing you need is the ability to place it where it will do the most damage, and let the fact it's a lightsaber do the work for you.
So, feats that make sense with a lightsaber won't make sense in a world where fighters aren't swinging fractal blades or disintegration-edge lights or monomolecular swords.

Sure, such things have flavor...but balance is harder to come by.

===Aelryinth


Most of the games I run ...I run with a 15point but & 1d6 bonus points. So player have any where from 16 to 21 point to buy abilities. I'm well aware for the potential for a fighter with a high str (18@+4) and high dex (18@+4) would do. But give that in the sap fighting thief thread that I wrote in the rules page....I thought what i was looking to do was well with in the realm of balance.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

At low levels it wouldn't be a problem.

Unfortunately, the game doesn't stop at level 4.

When a character gets a 30 Str and 24 Dex, or verse vica, and is cranking out +7/+10 or God Help You, +10/+15, or +15/+20, and getting the AC bonus, reflex save, init mod, and doesn't even have to be a Melee...you'll see where there are balance issues.

The sap wielder has his own set of problems to deal with, and while they make nice theory builds, nobody is going to play a sap wielder in a normal campaign.

They'd grab a dex to damage feat in a HEARTBEAT, however. I sure would. It's like Craven, adding +1 dmg to SA's per Character level...what's not to love?

==Aelryinth


I currently have have a player doing the sap fighter build in my Jade Regent game ......I'm worried because with both feats when he fights with two saps (two-weapon fighting) he will pull and average of 33 points of dmg per hand. and he only has a strength of 13, given the rules for nonlethal dmg his first hit knocks the unconscious the off hand kills them out right .....a 2 hit kill at lvl 6 every time?!

Balanced?!

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