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Hi all. I've ran this scenario twice and was interested in getting some feedback.
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I had two identical maps drawn, one in the middle of the battlemat for the players, and a second one behind the dm screen in front of me. I showed each of the players with their mini where they were in the room with their specific mini behind the DM screen before the encounter started. I represented each player and the 2 enemies with pennies on the map the players could see, while after initially showing everyone where they were individually, keeping their minis on my map behind the dm screen. I had assigned a year on each penny to each player so I could verify and keep track on the main mat, but did not relay that info as I wanted it to remain a bit confusing as to who was who to the players.
The combat went pretty well, there was minimal friendly fire at first. (I know that is a no-no in society, but this seems to be a situation that was specifically set up to create that problem.) In the end everyone kind of backed into the sides of the room readying to strike anything that hit them. Couple of people backed into lighting traps, but eventually with the ready action they eliminated friendly fire and eventually brought him and his shadow companion down.
Contributor
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I was discussing this with Mike (Brock) the other day and I e-mailed him a couple of suggestions based on how I handle it.
"I don't know if you're using a battle map to run the scene, however I'd suggest you try not using one for that encounter.
The whole point of the Shadow room is to be disorienting which is sort of contradictory to Battlemat thinking. You might kind of need to "sell" that aspect of the enconter to the players before telling them you're not using the mat. From there, they'll be watching you the whole time so you need to be really focused throughout the encounter. At least that's how I run it.
You can keep track of things on a secret map if need be, so the players don't think you're "cheating" on their positions or something and ask them what kind of steps they want to take in what directions.
I would also suggest not having Woaltog pretend to be Eliza- only because he doesn't resemble her in the least, have him keep his distance or maybe even let his shadow familiar wisp about and mislead the PCs, and get them to separate while they explore the room. Keep him moving and let the PCs do what they need to do. I also suggest that you think on Woalog's motivation a bit. I'm not sure how the final draft wound up, however Woaltog's primary motivation isn't "kill the PCs", its find an escape route. Therefore, he's really hoping the PCs can find a way out of the room for him, interrupting them in this task isn't something he's really trying to achieve, though once he thinks he can escape the room, he'll gladly kill them.
Anyway, that's sort of how handle that encounter.
Character motivation is super important to me, because when you GM knowing the motivations, the players sense that the NPC has a strong purpose, even if they don't know what it is... You become much more driven as a GM and can "sell" the encounter better."
I also like Sethious's suggestion for using the pennies for those who feel like they must use minis. I know it sometimes gets difficult not to use a map with organized play, because of the nature of how Pathfinder combat rules work (particularly with combat feats). Going mat-less can be really intimidating if your running for a table of players you don't know well (like at a convention) and who might not trust you as a GM.
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When I ran it, I did with him fully intending to kill them as his main priority. I thought there was a mention of him wanting to off everyone in the Decemvirate before escaping, but I must have misinterpreted this as you wrote the scenario, haha. Running with this, I ran him as thinking the PC's were Decemvirate members or allies (which I guess they technically are) of theirs. It was a challenging combat on both ends of the screen, but I think it played out well. I didn't even consider divorcing the battlemat from the run as I have used it since I started running pathfinder, and I find the system to be really reliant on it.
As a side note: Kudos on the Taldor faction mission, that brought a lot of laughs to the table that night.
Director of Brand Strategy
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One way I considered advising in the text that I ended up removing to let GMs do things their own way was to use identical minis for all PCs and Woaltog. Then have each player turn away from the table when it's not their turn, and only look at the position of other minis when it was their turn. The GM can point to the player's PC to indicate where they are in the room (as the character would know where he's standing). Then let the PCs all move their character around, attack, etc. Being able to pass notes to players is really helpful here, as it allows you to tell a player facing away from the mat that they've taken damage without other players hearing.
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Because everyone appears as a blurred, medium, shadowy figure with no distinguishing equipment, I (and Josh, my partner in crime) ran this encounter with only the map but no figurines. We had decided ahead of time to maximize the secrecy of the encounter, so we played a game of Mafia. That is to say we had the players close their eyes, and we would tap a few (2-3 at a time based on initiative) to signal that they could open their eyes and silently write down any questions they had or actions that they wanted to take (including speech). Once a person had finished writing what he wanted to do/know on a 5x7" notecard, he would again close his eyes and hold out the notecard for a GM to pick up. We the GMs then read over the actions, updated our secret map, and then narrated what everyone was seeing. This narration break was also a good opportunity to reinforce descriptions of features of the room.
Several players trying talking, and I narrated these vocalizations as if they were going through a voice modulator (like one used when interviewing an individual whose identity is being kept secret). In this way nobody even knew who was shouting - and shout some of the PCs did. In addition, the secret system kept the players from identifying the NPC and his shadow when the latter were acting.
Be sure to remember animal companions, eidolons, and familiars. Every figure in the room is scattered randomly, and every figure appears to be of medium size. Even the basic link feature does not help a great deal when identifying who is who. A large figure might appear as a medium creature but still take up the full four squares, leading some characters to believe that they've bumped into an invisible target next to a shadowy figure.
Overall, the players enjoyed the experience and the change of pace. After about three full rounds using this system, enthusiasm can begin to lag, so make sure that you emphasize the platform with the stones to push the PCs to an eventual escape in case they are not making any progress at all.
The system flowed fairly smoothly, but part of that came from having a talent co-GM who could update the secret map, help in writing responses, and deliver whispered messages. I offer fair warning that this process could be slower for those GMing the encounter solo.
The party consisted of a fighter/barbarian, a magus, a ranged inquisitor, a battle oracle, a cavalier, and a conjurer (teleportation), and they were at this point fairly familiar with each other's tactics. This battle really messed with them - mostly to their enjoyment - and demonstrated how strange a place Skyreach could be. All of it took around an hour and a half to resolve.
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So now that our group has finished Eyes, I've gone through and read all the threads I can find on it. I gotta say, this was an amazing arc and we had great GMs. We were the 4th group in Georgia (Mike ran the first two, John et. al. ran the 3rd, and one of the players from the 3rd - along with John, Josh, and some last-minute help ran us through.) I gotta say this because it's going to sound like I'm complaining. I'm not, just trying to offer suggestions for future runs.
What happened to us:
It sounded like it should work but it pretty much guaranteed a lot of death. Only one person stepped into an alcove in the first round (me). My first card came back with "Make a Reflex save." The second round three figures stepped into alcoves and my card came back with "You take 40 points of electricity damage. Make 3 Reflex saves." The third round also had three figures in alcoves (one was the bad guy). When I stepped into an alcove and took electricity damage I had no idea what the source was since there was an extra figure there I thought someone might have cast on me. It wasn't until three people stepped into alcoves the second round and I had to make three saves that I figured out they were trapped. Certainly if I'd had to make a save when I stepped into that alcove on round 1 I wouldn't have stepped in another in round 2. If it wasn't for a Raging Vitality barbarian, a resurgent transformation, and two people who got off resist energy spells that room would have been a TPK. So two problems: 1) The simultaneous action meant way too much bad stuff happened at once. 2) I think the sheer volume of stuff the GMs were trying to do at once meant that stuff got missed. Perception checks in the 40s were turning up nothing (including the platform with the stones).
It was pretty fun trying to figure out who was who. Two figures took flight the first round and we all said (silently to ourselves of course) "OK, one is the alchemist and the other is the sorcerer." (Because they always do that.) Once we had someone identified we could then say thing like "Rai Loi just flew next to Cardamus" the turn after only one figure flew to get information out.
My suggestion would be a hybrid of John and Sethious' earlier posts and what was done with us. Especially if you can get two GMs and the space for two tables. Set up a map with replacement figures. Mirror it on a table to the side. Then call over the players to the side table in initiative order and point to one of the figures. "That's you. What is your turn?" Write down any speech and the moves made. If any saves are needed, have everyone make them immediately. Then have the next player come over. Take Woaltag's turn as it comes. When the round ends, go back over to the main table and move all the figures (in a random order of course) and repeat whatever characters said (in a random order of course).
Players will gradually figure out who is who and avoid the problems we had where we had no idea what actions had consequences until it was far too late.
Overall this is an awesome encounter but it takes a fine balance between so much information that even the best players can't help but metagame a bit and so little information that players are dying with no apparent cause or recourse.
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I finally ran this for my group last weekend at the local gaming store, and for encounter 1, I secretly assigned each player a number at the table, and told them to NOT tell anybody else their number. I then (warned them a week before hand) had the players blindfold themselves, and then would quietly walk around the table on that person's turn and tap them on the shoulder. We would silently communicate their intentions and when I would use Woultag to attacks someone, I would simply announce the number of the player who was being attacked. It made for a very LONG encounter, but the players liked it.
[Deleted question. Bought a PDF of Advanced Bestiary and figured it out]
It would appear that the Copper Guardian is missing a revelation.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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Quick question regarding the campaign points for this scenario.
"Andoran faction PCs who successfully release Aistor Garislog’s psychic essence from the Pillar of Screaming Angels in area 3 earn 1 Prestige Award. Andoran faction PCs who host the essence in order to bring it back
to Almas receive 1 bonus Prestige Award."
fall under this proviso of the campaign point section?
"The PC deals no needless damage to the Decemvirate’s property and steals none of the valuable relics held within the Sanctum of the Ten (individual award)."
I'm not sure if the psychic essence counts as a valuable relic or not.
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Quick question regarding the campaign points for this scenario.
** spoiler omitted **
Yes.
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Hmmm... I see where you are coming from.
You would think that the factions should be equal (as far as the likelihood of getting the points) but I absolutely can't see a way that a Taldor player can do the faction mission without stealing a relic (and therefore losing both points). If an Andoran (Or Qadiran, etc.) does exactly the same things elsewhere as the Taldan but her faction mission happens to be different, why should she get more campaign points than the Taldan? For equality alone I would say that every item would count as a relic.
And no, that wasn't a pro-Andor joke.
But that's my opinion, I really don't know.
Calling John? . . .
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I had a pretty successful time running this on Roll20. I primed the players with warnings that it was going to take cooperation to manage the encounter before we started. Then when they arrived at the portal room, I forbade them from saying anything about their character actions of speech outside of whispers to me as the GM. I then read off what they were saying in the same voice while moving silhouettes around the map. There was a fair amount of confusion and it was a lot of effort to keep the combat moving briskly. It eased as they got the stones in play and could start talking again.
The rest of the scenario was excellent, with my poor team blundering past and out of campaign points while gleefully performing faction missions (and failing the secondary parts of the faction missions). The released prisoners and sphinx didn't last more than two rounds, nor did the clockwork golems (but the death bursts and wall of gears abilities shredded them something fierce!).
The final battle was amazing, with Adril and one of his accomplices winning initiative on the party and closing with Shemis. It became a tense battle to get a defensive line between them and required two breath of life charges from first aid gloves after Adril got a full attack in. The party ranger was at 10HP from being double teamed when the party dropped Hestram and came to his rescue. Not before a couple close calls with Vital Strike however!
Over all, two Venture Captains and three Favored of the Ten came out of this run. Good times had by all.
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I have run and played the Eyes series and it is still unclear to me how much time, if any, elapses between parts 3 and 4. Should they be run as if it is one continuous scenario with no rest or replenishment of abilities and spells? Or, through the magic dimensional hopping and nebulous PFS between-scenario time everyone is at full upon arrival to Skyreach? I couldn't find the answer in either scenario. Getting ready for a third run this summer.
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I have run and played the Eyes series and it is still unclear to me how much time, if any, elapses between parts 3 and 4. Should they be run as if it is one continuous scenario with no rest or replenishment of abilities and spells? Or, through the magic dimensional hopping and nebulous PFS between-scenario time everyone is at full upon arrival to Skyreach? I couldn't find the answer in either scenario. Getting ready for a third run this summer.
Magic nebulous thingy. The scenarios had different writers and the challenge levels are commensurate with a rested-to-start group in Part 4.
I have talked to groups that ran directly from 3 to 4. They struggled mightily with Part 4. Even a group widely considered to be far overpowered had trouble. They completed the scenario but their casters were basically limited to doing nothing but using wands and alchemist's fires after the first room because they were out of daily abilities. If it wasn't for the always potent gunslinger they probably couldn't have made it through.
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Man the convicts really did a number on the group I gm'd for. Rogue turned into a heegehog, paladin almost got splattered by sneak attack scorching rays and then she and witch just about died because of creeping doom, only barely making it thanks to three consecutive dragon roars from the monkbarian.
Shows how important winning that initiative can be. When I was playing, our archer dropped two of them on his first turn.
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One of my VLs and I are helping another GM prep Eyes of the Ten, and we stumbled onto a rather odd question that we were hoping to get feedback on:
So, Adril Hestram is the mastermind behind this, and his triumphant finale is to kill Shemis inside Skyreach. He's had multiple interactions with the PCs - hearing their stories and seeing them on Akiton, if nothing else (possibly knowing lots more about them if they played in scenarios where they reported to him).
His character sheet lists 200 platinum and 144 gold. If he's aware of something super nasty that the PCs can do, can a GM have him spend some of that gold to help protect himself?
Example - Super (bordering on "broken") quick-grapple-pin-strangle-specialist Brawler who openly advertises how awesome she is at bringing enemies to submission in "world record" times. Could he pop 90 platinum for a Lesser Talisman of Freedom in order to give himself Freedom of Movement for 3 rounds should she happen to go for him?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts!
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I'd love to say yes but that would open a can of worms for every other less than capable boss in the campaign. Just basic stuff, like a potion of invisibility, of feather step or alchemical gear, or a magic weapon would save many a foe.
IIRC, our archer killed him before he got to act, including two goons. It happens.
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I'd love to say yes but that would open a can of worms for every other less than capable boss in the campaign. Just basic stuff, like a potion of invisibility, of feather step or alchemical gear, or a magic weapon would save many a foe.
I do agree with you, but this boss in particular spends at least four scenarios learning about / studying his foe (the PCs), possibly even more. Also most scenario BBEGs don't get nearly enough gold to buy much of anything, whereas this one gets so much that it's even pointed out as a special ability at the end of his stat block.
Plus, my VL makes the point that this is the epic "retirement from normal PFS play" moment of a PC's career, and it should be a rather big challenge for them.
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Okay, the incendiary cloud trap in area 20.. most of the other rooms do a [b]lot[b] more damage, but they are instantaneous.
How long does the incendiary cloud trap hang around for? Normally the spell lasts for 1 round per level - now most of the effects seem to operate at level 14 or 15, and you would have to be at least 15th level to actually cast that spell. Does it last 15 rounds?
Also, how long do the rooms take to rotate to a new position? One round?
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I've been looking into interesting spells to use with Shadow Conjuration. First a question though. Is the ranger bound by the same limits as PC's with regard to racial spells? There's a nice summoning spell that belongs to the drow.
I assume the caster automatically makes the disbelieve check on these.
Fog Cloud: Add concealment into the mix to make it even harder to tell who's who. 80% chance to see normal
Ash Storm: Fog cloud's big brother shuts down all visibility. Again, 80% chance to see normal.
Stinking Cloud: He's not immune though, so there's still a 20% chance he'll have to make the save.
Protective Spirit: stop some of the AoO's coming at you. I guess if they disbelieve there's only a 20% chance the attack is stopped.
Rain of Frogs: I don't know how the silhouette illusion handles swarms, but I think you just put one guy for the whole swarm. But auto damage and potential con damage is nice.
Fleshwarping Swarm: The Drow one. All the fun of the swarm, but also a -4 dex penalty.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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On the other end, I don't see what Andrexiel is supposed to actually DO. The claws will probably hit, but do tiny damage. Brain drain is all-or-nothing for about 20 damage. She's got a lot of nice symbols, but those all take 10 minutes to cast unless something alters it that I don't see.
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Yeah, I usually handwave the Andrexiel fight - she usually gets a Brain Drain off and that's about it. Besides, I'd rather have the extra time for the upstairs fight anyway, and I'm usually at the point where I need to be watching out for time.
As for the shadow conjuration, usually I end up summoning a bunch of smaller things. This is mainly to confuse everyone with all the extra people coming in and also to clog up the battlefield to make it harder for the PCs to grab the ioun stones.
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Andrexiel can present a good role-playing moral dilemma if you decide to open with conversation instead of immediate attacks. “Hi! I’m afraid you have to turn around and go back. My job is to not let anyone through.” The PCs need past, but she’s just a loyal servant of the decimverate.
For shadow conjuration, Woltag’s tactics specifically say he conjures creatures. Unless the PCs invalidate that somehow, that’s what I’d stick with. It adds to the confusion and mayhem as Iammers said.
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Andrexiel can present a good role-playing moral dilemma if you decide to open with conversation instead of immediate attacks. “Hi! I’m afraid you have to turn around and go back. My job is to not let anyone through.” The PCs need past, but she’s just a loyal servant of the decimverate.
Just to add when role playing Andrexiel, pretty much every reason that the PCs would come up with for wanting to get past her isn't true. Shemis isn't in any danger at the moment and Adril Hestram hasn't managed to get past her. In fact, not that she's fully aware of the situation, but she's actually in the right here - keeping the PCs from going up is the best way to defend the Decemvirate. Your goal with the roleplaying encounter should be to be frustrating enough as Andrexiel that the PCs trigger the combat - either by ignoring her or by giving up and just attacking. And if they do the second, make sure to tell them how dumb they're being. It makes the reveal with the ioun stones that much better.
It adds to the confusion and mayhem as Iammers said.
*cough*
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When we played we negotiated our way past to go save Shemis but the Scarab Sage character stayed behind to fight her meaning we didn't have him to help against the rest.
He fought her for ages using a Riddywhipple benefitting from Form of the Dragon 1 as she chased around trying to get to him.
And that's the perfect situation for a certain effect of the Campaign points.
As far as part 4 goes, there isn't all that much in the entire part that is particularly challenging to a group of level 13's nowadays, even if you limit it to 4.
Slaying arrows put a bit of fear in our last run through - that plus messing up the puzzle room, repeatedly.
