Ninja needs at least Str 10 (higher if not finessing)
Dex 14+, ideally should be 18 after race...you're a freaking ninja. If finessing, NEEDS to be 18 after race, or else you're really wasting a feat...
Con at least 12, but really needs higher since it's a melee-ish class with weak HD and poor fort saves.
Int has to be at least 10. If you go below 10 int, you've just thrown away one of the major selling features of being a rogue/ninja in the first place.
Wis certainly can't be negative, and ideally has a decent bonus, because of the poor will save, and IME a commonly exploited "rogue weakness"
Cha you need at least 14 for your ki, preferably more.
That's...pretty freaking MAD, guys. At least Monk can dump cha to 7 and isn't that devastated by an int penalty...
I don't know what you think MAD means, but just cause ninja doesn't need 18's across the board doesn't keep it from being MAD.
And I do play rogues...not in PF, cause they're unplayably awful, but certainly I did a lot in 3E, and still do. They can dump cha, so they're less MAD than ninja by default.
So a Ninja with stats 10/18/12/10/12/14, then? That is only a 19 point buy. Quite possible. I don't agree that dropping INT hurts (Going from 8 to 6 skills is far less painful than 4 to 2), I wouldn't even bother with 14 CHA, and I'd probably go for a 17 DEX, but that is just fiddling. The stats you specified are totally possible within a common point buy.
I'm not saying the Ninja isn't MAD, but I wouldn't say it is the MADest class ever. Nor that it is unplayable. Weak? Sure. Probably the weakest class other than straight Rogue. But not unplayable.
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Ninja needs at least Str 10 (higher if not finessing)
Dex 14+, ideally should be 18 after race...you're a freaking ninja. If finessing, NEEDS to be 18 after race, or else you're really wasting a feat...
Con at least 12, but really needs higher since it's a melee-ish class with weak HD and poor fort saves.
Int has to be at least 10. If you go below 10 int, you've just thrown away one of the major selling features of being a rogue/ninja in the first place.
Wis certainly can't be negative, and ideally has a decent bonus, because of the poor will save, and IME a commonly exploited "rogue weakness"
Cha you need at least 14 for your ki, preferably more.That's...pretty freaking MAD, guys. At least Monk can dump cha to 7 and isn't that devastated by an int penalty...
I don't know what you think MAD means, but just cause ninja doesn't need 18's across the board doesn't keep it from being MAD.
And I do play rogues...not in PF, cause they're unplayably awful, but certainly I did a lot in 3E, and still do. They can dump cha, so they're less MAD than ninja by default.
Why is a monk not hurt by an intellect penalty with 4 skills/level, but a ninja can't afford to take an intellect penalty?
I can go human with an 8 intellect ninja and get 8 skills per level. If I do the same thing with a monk I only get 4. I can also use the bonus feat to shore up my will save, and if I really want to finesse, I can easily afford a 16 in dexterity, working up to an 18.
Another array, this one for you finessing fools:
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 14
And another that doesn't go so crazy on dexterity:
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 14
It's not that bad!
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So a Ninja with stats 10/18/12/10/12/14, then? That is only a 19 point buy. Quite possible. I don't agree that dropping INT hurts (Going from 8 to 6 skills is far less painful than 4 to 2), I wouldn't even bother with 14 CHA, and I'd probably go for a 17 DEX, but that is just fiddling. The stats you specified are totally possible within a common point buy.
I'm not saying the Ninja isn't MAD, but I wouldn't say it is the MADest class ever. Nor that it is unplayable. Weak? Sure. Probably the weakest class other than straight Rogue. But not unplayable.
I disagree. The ninja has a ton of tricks (quickened invisibility, eventually quickened greater invisibility, mirror image, an extra attack at will). Yes, they come off a limited resource, but it becomes a versatile class, and what I believe the rogue should have been to begin with.
Stronger than the monk definitely, and I would put it above the cavalier in indoor and difficult terrain games.
Ninja needs at least Str 10 (higher if not finessing)
Dex 14+, ideally should be 18 after race...you're a freaking ninja. If finessing, NEEDS to be 18 after race, or else you're really wasting a feat...
Con at least 12, but really needs higher since it's a melee-ish class with weak HD and poor fort saves.
Int has to be at least 10. If you go below 10 int, you've just thrown away one of the major selling features of being a rogue/ninja in the first place.
Wis certainly can't be negative, and ideally has a decent bonus, because of the poor will save, and IME a commonly exploited "rogue weakness"
Cha you need at least 14 for your ki, preferably more.That's...pretty freaking MAD, guys. At least Monk can dump cha to 7 and isn't that devastated by an int penalty...
I don't know what you think MAD means, but just cause ninja doesn't need 18's across the board doesn't keep it from being MAD.
And I do play rogues...not in PF, cause they're unplayably awful, but certainly I did a lot in 3E, and still do. They can dump cha, so they're less MAD than ninja by default.
Hmm… let's do what you just did for the Fighter
Str at LEAST 18 because duh!
Dex at LEAST 12 for AC, but ideally more because of armour training.
Con 14+ because duh!
Int at LEAST 10, because you want to have at least a few skill points, don't you? Also, you need 13+ if you want to do certain things.
Wis at LEAST 12, because who wants to be the enemy's charm b$&+#?
Cha, you can dump away.
Not much different than the Ninja, is it?
To reiterate what a few people have already said, it's not THAT bad. Sure, you can't dump 3 stats like the wizard, but most classes don't have that luxury. Ninjas are on the MADder side of the spectrum, but they are far from unplayable. The fact that Wizards and a few other classes are as SAD as they are is the bigger issue IMO. Madder classes makes for more interesting build choices. It's only when you mix MAD classes with SAD classes that it becomes a problem.
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That's...pretty freaking MAD, guys. At least Monk can dump cha to 7 and isn't that devastated by an int penalty...
How is a Ninja devestated by an Int penalty? Are 7-8 skill points a level not enough? I'd never do it, but from an optimization standpoint it's solid
And Str 8 isn't the end of the world either. Especially not with Agile Weapons available.
I don't know what you think MAD means, but just cause ninja doesn't need 18's across the board doesn't keep it from being MAD.
It means needs more than two stats? Ninjas need Dex and Cha. That's really it. They also need a bit of Con (in the way literally everyone does) and shouldn't dump anything too low, but that's hardly MAD.
I can do a starting Human Ninja with Str 8, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Chr 14 (or dump Int instead), grab Weapon Finesse and TWF, and be good to go in 15 point-buy. 20 point buy and I don't need to dump any more, 25 and I can easily afford either Dex 20 or Cha 16. 10 point buy I can just drop the Dex to 16 and still be good.
And I do play rogues...not in PF, cause they're unplayably awful, but certainly I did a lot in 3E, and still do. They can dump cha, so they're less MAD than ninja by default.
*blinks, in a mystified awful* How...did Rogues get all the way to 'unplayably worse' in Pathfinder? I'm curious. I agree they're weaker than they should be, but that sounds excesive.
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Ninja needs at least Str 10 (higher if not finessing)
Dex 14+, ideally should be 18 after race...you're a freaking ninja. If finessing, NEEDS to be 18 after race, or else you're really wasting a feat...
Con at least 12, but really needs higher since it's a melee-ish class with weak HD and poor fort saves.
Int has to be at least 10. If you go below 10 int, you've just thrown away one of the major selling features of being a rogue/ninja in the first place.
Wis certainly can't be negative, and ideally has a decent bonus, because of the poor will save, and IME a commonly exploited "rogue weakness"
Cha you need at least 14 for your ki, preferably more.That's...pretty freaking MAD, guys. At least Monk can dump cha to 7 and isn't that devastated by an int penalty...
I don't know what you think MAD means, but just cause ninja doesn't need 18's across the board doesn't keep it from being MAD.
And I do play rogues...not in PF, cause they're unplayably awful, but certainly I did a lot in 3E, and still do. They can dump cha, so they're less MAD than ninja by default.
Hmm… let's do what you just did for the Fighter
Str at LEAST 18 because duh!
Dex at LEAST 12 for AC, but ideally more because of armour training.
Con 14+ because duh!
Int at LEAST 10, because you want to have at least a few skill points, don't you? Also, you need 13+ if you want to do certain things.
Wis at LEAST 12, because who wants to be the enemy's charm b*%@@?
Cha, you can dump away.Not much different than the Ninja, is it?
To reiterate what a few people have already said, it's not THAT bad. Sure, you can't dump 3 stats like the wizard, but most classes don't have that luxury. Ninjas are on the MADder side of the spectrum, but they are far from unplayable. The fact that Wizards and a few other classes are as SAD as they are is the bigger issue IMO. Madder classes makes for more interesting build choices. It's only when you mix MAD classes with SAD classes that it becomes a...
I think if I were to homebrew a version of the wizard to make it MADer, I would require at least two high mental stats: Intelligence for bonus spells, and either charisma or wisdom for spell DCs. You would also be able to tie either one to your will save.
In your own example, you have Fighter dumping a stat, which is something Ninja can't do...
And a Fighter can have Int 7 and lose only 1 skill point from Int 10. He only needs Int 13+ if doing tripping or something.
But yes, I suppose saying its unplayable was too far. It's certainly be very weak with such spread out scores, though. Like the "less dex focus" array of Mergy's. He's using what to hit with? The 12 str or the 16 Dex? With medium BAB, that sounds like he's going to have trouble hitting. And it's still the only straight class in the game that has no stat it can dump. (I refuse to accept Mergy's claims that it's "not so bad" to play the "skills class" and proceed to lose skill points :p )
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I think if I were to homebrew a version of the wizard to make it MADer, I would require at least two high mental stats: Intelligence for bonus spells, and either charisma or wisdom for spell DCs. You would also be able to tie either one to your will save.
Easiest house rule to make Charisma a good stat for everyone: Let them take it instead of Wisdom on Will saves if they like.
IME, results in fair amount of Wisdom dumping and hilariously low Perception scores, but I'm okay with that. And it perhaps more accurately reflects the kind of people who'd become adventurers...
But yes, I suppose saying its unplayable was too far. It's certainly be very weak with such spread out scores, though. Like the "less dex focus" array of Mergy's. He's using what to hit with? The 12 str or the 16 Dex? With medium BAB, that sounds like he's going to have trouble hitting. And it's still the only straight class in the game that has no stat it can dump. (I refuse to accept Mergy's claims that it's "not so bad" to play the "skills class" and proceed to lose skill points :p )
Going down to Ranger or Bard level skills per level hardly makes you not a skill class.
And dumping Str a bit doesn't hurt you too much either.
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We've houseruled Charisma to be the determining stat for spell DCs and Will saves for all classes. Thus, when a spell is cast, the saving throw is a direct competition between the characters Cha.
Wis is not dumped as often due to the mighty Perception check and it's importance to the game. (We did move projectile ranged attack rolls to Wis to reduce the god-stat Dex a bit.)
I think if I were to homebrew a version of the wizard to make it MADer, I would require at least two high mental stats: Intelligence for bonus spells, and either charisma or wisdom for spell DCs. You would also be able to tie either one to your will save.
+1. That's what I would do too.
For the Wizard, Int would be for bonus spells, Wis would be for DCs.
For the Sorcerer, Cha would be for bonus spells, Wis would be for DCs.
For the Cleric, Cha would be for Bonus spells, Wis would be for DCs
For the Druid, Wis would be the universal caster stat (they're already MAD enough)
And you'd need a high enough score in BOTH your caster stats to cast a spell, i.e. a wizard would need both an int and a wis of 16 to cast 6th level spells.
I'd also split will saves into two categories: Most will saves would be tied to wisdom, but fear and charm/compulsion saves would be tied to charisma.
We've houseruled Charisma to be the determining stat for spell DCs and Will saves for all classes. Thus, when a spell is cast, the saving throw is a direct competition between the characters Cha.
Wis is not dumped as often due to the mighty Perception check and it's importance to the game. (We did move projectile ranged attack rolls to Wis to reduce the god-stat Dex a bit.)
And that's a really cool way to do things too!
And I do play rogues...not in PF, cause they're unplayably awful, but certainly I did a lot in 3E, and still do. They can dump cha, so they're less MAD than ninja by default.*blinks, in a mystified awful* How...did Rogues get all the way to 'unplayably worse' in Pathfinder? I'm curious. I agree they're weaker than they should be, but that sounds excesive.
I guess it depends if you want to compare core-only 3E with PF, or include at least some splatbooks with it. Core rogue in 3E sucked. The devs realized this, but instead of re-writing the class itself, just put in item after spell after feat after alt. class feature after... to basically let rogue sneak attack nearly anything, as he can in PF. If you want to disregard all of that and look only at core, then yes. The rogue in 3E was unable to hurt ~1/3 - 1/4 of the monster manual and is thus inferior to the PF rogue, I suppose.
But look at other things. The trick with PF rogue is, the nerfs aren't in the class itself. The nerfs all came in other places. In PF, a rogue can no longer sneak attack (SA) with splash weapons. In PF, a rogue can no longer SA by blinking. Blinking flask combo alone actually made core rogue arguably good, as the stuff he COULD SA, he could decimate pretty well. PF also nerfed how balancing works, so that you could no longer full attack SA someone on grease or the like.
In short, they basically nerfed the ranged rogue's entire bag of tricks. Which is bad, because rogues can't really survive in melee...
But wait! Rogues got a d8 HD, right? ...Except every class below d8 HD got a boost, and the monsters in PF are slightly tougher in response to that. But there's still flanking, right? Oh wait...PF nerfed tumble so that now instead of a flat DC 15, it's based on enemy CMD, which means you need max ranks and high dex just to achieve ~50% success rate. Except at high levels. Then you also need Boots of Striding and Springing and Skill Focus (Acrobatics) to keep up with the exploding numbers of monster CMD and retain your lofty 50% odds. Here's a tip: If your tumble is failing half the time, and you're getting one attack and the monster's getting one on each of your turns (ie, you're skirmishing)...the monsters attacking you 50% more often than you're attacking it. You're going to die. If you're just using it to get to flanking...you have good odds of being hurt, just to end your turn next to the monster for him to full attack you...
And you better pray the DM didn't decide to give his monster this feat, btw. That prevents SA on the monster from ANY means. Nice! Don't worry, though. Not every monster will be able to meet its rigorous pre-reqs of..."None."
We've houseruled Charisma to be the determining stat for spell DCs and Will saves for all classes. Thus, when a spell is cast, the saving throw is a direct competition between the characters Cha.
TOZ, I'm not nit-picking, I'm really asking: is caster level not a part of that equation?
Edit: my local group plays E8, so CL is never a game breaker.
We've houseruled Charisma to be the determining stat for spell DCs and Will saves for all classes. Thus, when a spell is cast, the saving throw is a direct competition between the characters Cha.TOZ, I'm not nit-picking, I'm really asking: is caster level not a part of that equation?
I would guess the answer is that caster level is still used where it is applicable, e.g. for spell resistance. He only mentioned charisma as being the god stat for SAVING throws, not for anything else.
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I covered a lot of what PF rogues cannot do. How about some things a splat-enabled 3E rogue CAN do? I already covered the awesome flask + ring of blinking core-enabled combo. SA in a can...err...flask, gotta love it.
Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape): Rogue trades his trap sense for the ability to say, "You're immune to SA? **** you, you're taking half my SA damage anyway!"
Augment Crystals (Magic Item Compendium): You can store one at a time on your weapon, move action to remove or put a new one on. There was a 10,000 gp one to let you SA undead (and some other boons) and a 6000 gp one to SA constructs (and some other boons).
Staggering Strike feat (Complete Adventurer): Anyone you SA in melee has to make a fort save based on damage dealt (ie, really friggin' high) or be staggered for 1 round. This feat single-handedly made melee rogues viable. Even w/ SA, a full attacking rogue would lose by attrition against most level-appropriate monsters full attacking him back. But with this feat, he no longer had to concern himself with his performance in a fair fight!
Acrobatic Backstab skill trick (Complete Scoundrel): Once per encounter if you tumble through someone's space (DC 25), your next attack is automatically a SA.
Craven feat (Champions of Ruin): Doesn't actually help you get SA, but +HD damage on each of them certainly makes it more scary!
Maneuvers/stances (Tome of Battle): Lots of awesome here. Cloak of Deception gave you Greater Invis. till end of turn as a swift action. Island of Blades stance made you count as flanking with anyone else threatening the foe, regardless of positioning. Distracting Ember let you summon a 1 round indestrucible flanking buddy as a swift action. Assassin's Stance just gave a nice +2d6 SA damage boost.
Just some tools in the rogue's arsenal off the top of my head.
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For the same reason that paladins can afford to dump wisdom because of their great saves, a ninja or rogue can definitely dump intellect because of their great skills.
There is no need to max out every skill, and there is no need for more than 8 of them (which is covered by a human with an 8 intellect).
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TOZ, I'm not nit-picking, I'm really asking: is caster level not a part of that equation?
I don't understand the question. Simply put, spell DCs are 10 + spell level + Cha mod regardless of class. (Sorcerers/Oracles are unchanged, Wizards are a bit more MAD, Clerics/Druids have to consider their priorities a bit more.) Will saves are now calculated with Cha bonus instead of Wis. (Another win for spontaneous casters.) Caster level just determines how much damage or the duration of the spell.
Edit: What Dave said.
It's also important to note how much niche protection rogues lost in the changes to class skills.
In 3E, it cost 2 points to raise a cross-class skill 1 rank, and you could raise your ranks to HALF the level someone with it as a class skill could. Compare to PF, where it always costs a point and the wizard 20 can have just as many perception ranks as the rogue.
And then there's the fact that a single level dip and/or use of traits can get you any class skill bonuses you might want and leave you totally up to par with a Rogue 20 at it.
Class skills in PF are even less significant than in D&D 4E; at least in 4E it's worth a +5...
TOZ, I'm not nit-picking, I'm really asking: is caster level not a part of that equation?
I don't understand the question. Simply put, spell DCs are 10 + spell level + Cha mod regardless of class. (Sorcerers/Oracles are unchanged, Wizards are a bit more MAD, Clerics/Druids have to consider their priorities a bit more.) Will saves are now calculated with Cha bonus instead of Wis. (Another win for spontaneous casters.) Caster level just determines how much damage or the duration of the spell.
Edit: What Dave said.
Yeah, got you, I actually confused caster and spell level there.
(Whatever, it's a learning experience.)
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I view the ninja as a much more social rogue, and also as a great infiltrator, provided you have another way to bypass traps.
Actually, if you're worried about magical traps, the bard (archaeologist) does it better than the rogue now.
i would just play my ninja as a trap specialist ranger 1 then ninja x.
you still hit like a ninja and disarm traps like a rogue.
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you still hit like a ninja and disarm traps like a rogue.Not exactly. Your Trapfinding bonus will stay at only +1.
As for the Rogue Talents: They are appropriate for what they are - fillers for dead levels.
If you've got a trap heavy game, go bardchaeologist; if you don't frequently run into magical traps, or if you have a conjuration wizard on your team, then you don't need to worry about them and have the leisure to go ninja.
Besides, lets say your wizard gets 6 skill ranks per level. Which of these are you giving up so that your GM can have other wizards make fun of you for being sub par all the time: Spell Craft, Fly, Craft: Lab Equipment, Knowledge: Planes, Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Religion, Knowledge: History, and so on and on. If you 20th level wizard managed to wrap up 20 ranks of Perception, I'd probably have him kicked out of the wizard order, tar and feathered, and refused 9th level spells.
So, to be clear, your argument is that the skill changes don't matter for the Rogue, on the grounds that a stereotypical Wizard will take stereotypical Wizard skills. Does this hypothetical "Wizard Order" stop at tarring and feathering Wizards who take ranks in Perception, or is it anyone who doesn't wear the appropriate long robes and pointy hat? Is my Ranger not allowed to pick locks with the Disable Device he uses for poacher's traps, lest Aragorn come and kick his butt?
The skill change had a major impact on Rogues. That even without a trait or dip any random class can swipe things off the list of the one that is supposed to be "good at skills" has helped water down the Rogue class, and made them weaker in the eyes of many. That some characters may not take advantage of this is pretty much irrelevant to the point.
Augment Crystals (Magic Item Compendium): You can store one at a time on your weapon, move action to remove or put a new one on. There was a 10,000 gp one to let you SA undead (and some other boons) and a 6000 gp one to SA constructs (and some other boons).
Some of the points are valid however pathfinder rogues get to SA undead and constructs for free.
Yeah, but can you isa the question. The freedom to sneak attack undead if offset by the difficulties in making them lose Dex to AC. You can flank, but you don't have 100% chance to not be hit if you tumble nor the AC to stand a full attack next round.
You could use a wand (invis, G. invis if Summoners make wands).
Augment Crystals (Magic Item Compendium): You can store one at a time on your weapon, move action to remove or put a new one on. There was a 10,000 gp one to let you SA undead (and some other boons) and a 6000 gp one to SA constructs (and some other boons).
Some of the points are valid however pathfinder rogues get to SA undead and constructs for free.
Listing that and Dungeonscape's variant was to show that rogues in 3E COULD sneak attack other stuff like undead and constructs, as that is the major boon PF supposedly gave them. Yes, at core printing of 3.5 they could not. But the designers quickly realized what a mistake that was and threw in solution after solution is as elegant a way as they knew how to fix that mistake. PF had the benefit of learning for the 3E years, so I'd certainly hope at launch it got the "let rogues sneak attack more stuff" part down.
EDIT: Yeah, the crystals cost money. But having the 3E version of tumble, blink, balancing rules, etc...? That's priceless.