Do helpless and prone stack?

[Kildaere]

Trying to figure out if prone stacks with helpless. I am guessing that it does.

1. A melee attack on a helpless target is + 4 to attack. Target is - 4 to AC (prone) and an additional - 5 to AC (zero DEX) for a total -9 to AC. Coup de grace available.

2. A range attack on a helpless target is +0 to attack. Target is + 4 to AC (prone) and - 5 to AC (zero DEX) for a net -1 to AC. Coup de grace available if adjacent and using bow or crossbow.

Do I have this correct?

[blahpers]

It doesn't specifically call these modifiers circumstance bonuses/penalties (which only stack if they don't come from "essentially the same source"), so I can't see why they wouldn't stack.

[HangarFlying]

Are you asking that if a character is prone, are they also considered helpless or are you trying to determine that if a character happens to be prone and helpless, do the modifiers stack?

[Some Random Dood]

HangarFlying wrote:

Are you asking that if a character is prone, are they also considered helpless or are you trying to determine that if a character happens to be prone and helpless, do the modifiers stack?

I think they are asking about the second choice.

[Kildaere]

Yes. If they are helpless and prone, do they stack?

[Archaeik]

Helpless: wrote:

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

Prone: wrote:

The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Bit tricky here... curious to see who else has input, but I'd say RAW they stack, RAI I'm less sure.

It says the bonus is "equivalent to attacking a prone target", yet a helpless target isn't necessarily prone...
Further, Helpless specifies a bonus to melee attackers vs that target, whereas Prone gives a penalty to the defender...

Honestly, I think the intent is for them not to stack, but the difference in wording causes them to.

[Frankthedm]

Archaeik, very good analysis, though I'd go out on a limb and say RAI they were not meant to stack.

[Nezthalak]

I would think helpless is just a more severe condition of prone, and therefore would not stack.

like the fatigued->exhausted progression and other such examples

[SlimGauge]

Having read the above it seems to me that the melee bonus is the same if the target is helpless or prone or (helpless AND prone) but the ranged bonus is different, as well as the effective dex.

Stated another way, the +4 to melee does not stack due to the "equivalent to attacking a prone target" but the -4 to ranged for being prone still applies.

Hard to make a table, but here goes:

___________________DEX_to_AC_____Melee__________Ranged
Helpless___________-5____________+4_____________+0
Prone______________+dex__________+4_____________-4
Helpless AND prone_-5____________+4_____________-4

Now I could be wrong, and since I've stated my position I'm sure a developer will be along shortly.

Edit: blast, there needs to be a way to force fixed-width fonts to make tables.

[LazarX]

I'm going to say no as these are essentially overlapping conditions and that helpless supersedes prone. Prone individuals are still active and can defend themselves albiet at a penalty?

Is there somewhere you're trying to get to with this? Or are you Coup De Graces not easy enough?

[Bob_Loblaw]

What happens if you are helpless but not prone?

[Frankthedm]

LazarX wrote:

Or are you Coup De Graces not easy enough?

CDG doesn't require a hit roll. A normal attack on a helpless target does.

[Lakesidefantasy]

I think the +4 to melee attacks versus helpless targets is intended to be an equivalent expression of the -4 to a prone target's armor class versus melee attacks, so, in my opinion, they do not stack because they are the exact same modifier expressed in different ways.

I suspect the designer assumed helpless targets would be prone, so, I would say, if your target is helpless but not prone then the -4 to armor class (+4 melee helpless equivalent) does not apply.

[SlimGauge]

If you're helpless but not prone (tied to a post for example) your dex is effectively 0 (for a -5 to AC), melee attackers get a +4, ranged attackers get nothing (but do benefit from the -5 to AC from effective dex 0).

[Thorkull]

You can clearly be helpless without being prone (tied to a chair, chained to a post).

I'd say they do stack, if it even matters for melee attacks. You're looking at a 9-point swing in AC (minimum - if the target derives a significant portion of their AC from DEX it's even worse) for being helpless which pretty much means a hit most of the time.

The only case where it's really significant would be against ranged attacks, where the the +4/-4 AC modifiers cancel each other out. In that case, just apply the DEX 0 and roll with it.

[Kildaere]

We are a group that is new to Pathfinder, and this is a question that came up in our last game. Since you can be helpless without being prone (knocked out in saddle, tied to a post, etc..) we were pretty sure they stacked (also as people have mentioned they are different penalties and they are from different sources - one from prone - one from helpless). But when trying to find the ruling in the core book or online, things got a bit fuzzy. Since this is a situation that probably occurs in every combat (so far it has happened in everyone of ours) I figured the rules would be pretty clear. I think that for our home game I am going to go with "they stack". But I am still unsure what the offical rule should be. I plan to dabble in PFS so I am curious for that angle too.