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I wasn't the GM. As I said, I've never had a problem with animal companions in homebrew games, only in PFS have I experienced this problem. AC 19 seems to just completely dominate the lower tier PFS scenarios. I find it unlikely that I got 5 DMs in a row that couldn't roll. I'm guessing the NPCs were needing 16s and up vs the cat and just weren't living long enough.
Perhaps animal companions should not be 1 hit die higher than APL at any point. Also, purchased animals do not scale for free, nor come back for free. I don't think that they are really that comparable.
I think people posting have really gotten fixated on numbers. Remember that this is not even a PC! There is still a druid running around doing who knows what!
What I'm really questioning is whether this is a balanced class feature in PFS. Showing me PC builds that are numerically superior to an animal companions really doesn't solve this question.
None of these "superior" PCs have access to druid spells, or have the skill points of a druid. If we look at the animal companion as a PC, then we have to heap the abilities of its master, too.
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19 AC dominating scenarios is kind of irrelevant, because even a barbarian can pull that off while moving at 40 ft.
Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Chain shirt and heavy wooden shield. Done. He'll also do more damage than an animal companion.
Of course there's a druid too, but I don't think a domainless druid is really going to be a match for any full BAB character at first level. Druids come into their own as casters at 5+, which is coincidentally when the animal companion is going to start slowing down; in fact, the animal companion likely stopped being ridiculous right as soon as it got out of the 1-2 games.
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My theory is that the animal companion was not being designed correctly. That there is no way for the animal companion at level 1-2 to have a 19 AC and still move 40ft per round. That the player was likely using Bestiary stats for the animal companion rather than the stats listed in the Druid section of the rulebook.
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Technically you can just not raise your pet , and you will get a new one the next scenario. You have snowball the lion, who died in a kobold trap. Snowball II who was killed by the redacted in the redacted, snowball III who took a crit from a greataxe, snowball IV who took a disintegrate to the head...
Buying two sets of gear isn't as bad as you'd think. Since the gold cost is exponential, buying two sets at 1 less is the same as buying 1 set of the absolute best you can have.
Why can't you raise your pet? Raise Dead states: "You restore life to a deceased creature," emphasis mine. The FAQ states that a lost creature must be replaced, but I presume this means one that you did not take action to have rezzed during the game. Otherwise, the spell Raise Animal Companion would surely appear on the additional resources page.
Regarding the "pet tax," I was just stating that people who have ACs have less gold to spend on themselves. The amount of gold is beside the point, the fact remains, to all who would rail against people with ACs, if they have a "better" base character than you do, after spending gold on outfitting an AC, then you've done something wrong.
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As David said, everyone is getting too caught up in the particulars of the numbers. Whether its an AC of 19 or 18, an attack bonus of +4 or +5, or a move of 30ft vs. 40ft, is not the issue. He is describing his experience and it is one where the druid/AC appear to be over-shadowing the rest of the players. This phenomenon is not limited to the druid. Most PC's have the potential for being uber-optimized (some more than others) and when traveling with non-optimized PC's it can become a distraction. This is an issue between players and play-styles more than the rules being broken.
If the local group is largely composed of non-optimizers, then the presence of a "power" gamer can be disruptive. It would be the same in reverse. The best course of action is to talk to the player in question. Perhaps ask him/her to pull back a bit with the druid or create another PC that is less optimized. And in response, the rest of the players can create more powerful PC's. That way, you can match character types and keep everyone on an even playing field and all will have the chance to play their preferred style.
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Grrrr. The internet ate my post.
I'm coming to think that this isn't about animal companions, it's about different play styles. There may be some consideration about whether the animal companion had some build issues, but the point remains that if a player wants to dominate and steam roll encounters, they can. OP may prefer to sit on the edge of his seat occasionally.
We all have play styles, and may have an A-list (whether knowingly or not, and whether aware of it or not) regarding the players, characters, and play styles we prefer to play with. Organized play in a convention environment requires coming to an accommodation of those varied play styles and still enjoying the game. Otherwise, a given player will decide to spend their time doing something else.
I recently became aware of Ogre's blog spot on effectively changing the difficulty of adventures by players choosing the degree of effectiveness in their character build. It's a nice piece in the spirit of lighting a lamp instead of cursing the darkness when it comes to matters of what we, as players, can do to modify our play experience, as well as a great introduction to the concept that not everyone plays with the same goal.
Edit: Looks like Bob is on the same wavelength; I like the company. :)
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My theory is that the animal companion was not being designed correctly. That there is no way for the animal companion at level 1-2 to have a 19 AC and still move 40ft per round. That the player was likely using Bestiary stats for the animal companion rather than the stats listed in the Druid section of the rulebook.
Not to burst your bubble, but it is possible.
From Bestiary 2:
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Natural armour +4
Speed 40 ft.
Bite (1d6) and 2 claws (1d4)
With leather barding that's AC 19 with speed 40 ft. I'm not sure what the companion was in the story given, but it is definitely possible.
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My theory is that the animal companion was not being designed correctly. That there is no way for the animal companion at level 1-2 to have a 19 AC and still move 40ft per round. That the player was likely using Bestiary stats for the animal companion rather than the stats listed in the Druid section of the rulebook.Not to burst your bubble, but it is possible.
From Bestiary 2:
** spoiler omitted **
I was referring to the cat, not a different animal companion. His example was discussing a large cat.
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My theory is that the animal companion was not being designed correctly. That there is no way for the animal companion at level 1-2 to have a 19 AC and still move 40ft per round. That the player was likely using Bestiary stats for the animal companion rather than the stats listed in the Druid section of the rulebook.Andrew, the OP stated that the Animal companion at level 2 (thus 3HD) had the feats: weapon finesse and improved natural armor (frankly I would have gone with dodge but there are tradeoffs to either).
It seems that the animal companion is either wearing chain shirt barding or had a mage armor spell on.
To Walter- That's a PF change, as I recall raise dead in 3.5 was only humanoids.
-James
I wasn’t aware you could take feats from the Bestiary unless another legal source allowed them?
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There's also the human option for trading your first level feat for +2 to an animal companion or familiar's stat. Since most low level critters snag weapon finesse, you up their dex to let them hit more often and it just happens to up their ac.
Why can't you raise your pet?
You CAN. You just don't HAVE to. If you leave your pet dead a new one shows up 24 hours later. Raising your pet with gold or pp is a vanity option unless you do it in the middle of the adventure.
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I wasn’t aware you could take feats from the Bestiary unless another legal source allowed them?
The Core rulebook description of animal companions specifically gives animal companions access to some of the monster manual feats.
Animal Feats
Animal companions can select from the following feats: Acrobatic, Agile Maneuvers, Armor Proficiency (light, medium, and heavy), Athletic, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Dodge, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Attack , Improved Overrun, Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Run, Skill Focus, Spring Attack, Stealthy, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus. Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources.
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I was referring to the cat, not a different animal companion. His example was discussing a large cat.My theory is that the animal companion was not being designed correctly. That there is no way for the animal companion at level 1-2 to have a 19 AC and still move 40ft per round. That the player was likely using Bestiary stats for the animal companion rather than the stats listed in the Druid section of the rulebook.Not to burst your bubble, but it is possible.
From Bestiary 2:
** spoiler omitted **
It's still possible after gaining some prestige points.
Str 13, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Feats Dodge
Gear wand of mage armour (cast by a dangerously curious druid)
AC 19, touch 14, flat-footed 15 (armour +4, Dex +3, Dodge +1, natural armour +1)
I'll admit it's a stretch, but I'm not going to call someone a cheater without actually seeing their character sheet.
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I'll admit it's a stretch, but I'm not going to call someone a cheater without actually seeing their character sheet.
For the record, I didn’t call anyone a cheater. Saying that their build is incorrect and calling them a cheater are two different things.
People (including myself) muck up character builds all the time, by mistake.
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There's also the human option for trading your first level feat for +2 to an animal companion or familiar's stat. Since most low level critters snag weapon finesse, you up their dex to let them hit more often and it just happens to up their ac.
Why can't you raise your pet?You CAN. You just don't HAVE to. If you leave your pet dead a new one shows up 24 hours later. Raising your pet with gold or pp is a vanity option unless you do it in the middle of the adventure.
Ahh, my mistake. I was just worried I'd GM'd something incorrectly. :P
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Please don't tell me what I will and won't accept. I'm just *questioning* the fairness of having such a class feature in PFS. I've said several times I've never had this be a problem in homebrew, but in homebrew, the fights are generally *much* more challenging, so it is physically impossible for the AC to be a problem.
But PFS ties everything to level, and only gives 20 character points to work with. So if I want my fighter to actually *know* something for role-playing purposes, the sacrifice in number crunching is non-trivial. That's when the PCs start looking more like ACs in combat ability. What exactly is the druid giving up again?
Keep in mind, that this is not, by far, the worst case I have heard of. I have observed a session where a master summoner build made the *entire group* unnecessary. I've also seen fighter archery builds that can shell out more damage than the rest of the group combined.
It just seems that the druid achieves a limited version of this effect by just showing up, because of the way ACs are implemented.
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So I've read the entire thread, and although you have some very valid points, it sounds to me like you have a bigger root issue at hand. To me it sounds like you are not getting enough of a challenge in PFS, and what challenge you do get, gets eaten up by other players.
While we have to take into consideration, that it's not all your fault, sometime there are *those* builds that are amazing and do insane things, this doesn't mean that there is no challenge for you in PFS still. I read in the conversation that you play a Cleric. As one of the few resident cleric players in the building, let me tell you, that clerics can keep up quite well with the rest of the party, but it all depends on how you build. If you build a cleric with the mission to be a squishy support, then guess what, PFS is a total bore. And eventually you die a horrid death and leave PFS with that sentiment.
But.. If you build clerics with unique domains and take feats that clerics wouldn't normally take, you would be surprised how well clerics can hold up among the party. I would be happy to help if you are at a loss as to how to make your cleric "kick some more ass"..
If it's difficulty that annoys you, consider playing some 3-7 games. At that tier, those with insane DPR's get hit in the face with this issue. Roleplaying Skill DC's. And once you get to 5-9, you get to meet not only some spellcasters that will give you a run for your money, but some fellow clerics that will blow you mind as to what they can do. Especially when they are the villans.. (6d6 Negative Energy with high Will Save? No thank you.)
Then there is always the idea, of playing some where else. Some spots get comfy and run "not-so-insanely-risky" modules. Some play "roll or die" modules. It all depends on what you are looking for. If they are playing a Season 0, you're in for a real challenge. So look around for other games in your area, and try a different group, you may find what you seek.
No matter what, the game is what you make of it. If you're bored, then you will always be bored. If you want a challenge, you have to make one for yourself in PFS.
Good Luck!
P.S: If you take a diety that has the "Animal" domain as a choice, you get an Animal Companion at 4th level just like the druids. Yeah it may be the equivalent of a 1st level companion, but that does work all the same. :D Balance in all classes my friend.
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I've seen combat clerics in practice before. This generally requires, in my experience, a couple of actions to "spell up". I'm fine with this, but at the tier I'm playing at, everything is usually smoked by the time I buff up. I expect this to get better in 3-7. I think I've only played one scenario at that tier, and we had some enchanter that charmed our way out of most encounters.
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I've seen combat clerics in practice before. This generally requires, in my experience, a couple of actions to "spell up". I'm fine with this, but at the tier I'm playing at, everything is usually smoked by the time I buff up. I expect this to get better in 3-7. I think I've only played one scenario at that tier, and we had some enchanter that charmed our way out of most encounters.
The idea is to have some foreknowledge of encounters by doing scouting, and to have your 10 minute/level and 1 minute/level buffs up and ready beforehand, leaving you only to maybe buff yourself once with a round/level.
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Also keep your eye out for shortcuts that can reduce the time required to apply buffs, for example the Heroism subdomain which lets you apply a heroism aura as a swift action. There are a few more popular things of this nature out there as well.
I am very partial to the Holy Vindicator as well for battle clerics. It is one of the few prestige classes where you lose virtually nothing, since it continues advancing your channeling. You get a versatile buff as a move and eventually swift action as well as some other goodies. You lose only three levels of spellcasting, and one feat to the silly channeling feat prereq. Its still worth it.
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So I'm not mistaken in perceiving the necessity for buffs on the cleric? I mean, with 20 character points, there is not a lot left after Wis/Cha. Or in my case, I just said screw it and bought 4 14s.
The necessity of buffs is a fallacy. You can exist quite well on +2 damage and +2 to hit (minus of course BAB). They are nice, and are very helpful. I have a couple characters where I bought all 14’s (with racial adjustments a dwarf gave me a 16 Con/Wis and 8 Cha) for a monk. He is quite effective in combat at 3rd level.
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So I'm not mistaken in perceiving the necessity for buffs on the cleric? I mean, with 20 character points, there is not a lot left after Wis/Cha. Or in my case, I just said screw and bought 4 14s.
A couple of things:
First, you don't need to have a high CHA unless you're focused on Channeling a lot.Second, WIS doesn't have to be maxed out unless you're focused on casting, specifically with offensive spells that grant saves. When you're casting bull's strength, there's no difference between 20 and 12 WIS.
Relatedly, have you seen the Crusader archetype in Ultimate Combat? You get fewer spells/day and only one domain, but get some combat-related bonus feats at 1st and every 5th level.
So a melee cleric might be a cleric of the Mother of Monsters (favored weapon: falchion) with stats like so:
STR 18 (16+2 if you're human/half-elf/half-orc)
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 13
CHA 10
At first level, you get heavy armor proficiency as a Crusader bonus feat. Take Toughness for your regular feat.
At fourth level, bump your WIS to 14. Shortly thereafter, buy a +2 WIS headband for a 16, which is all you need for the rest of your career.
And this is without even having a dump stat!
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For a cleric dedicated to melee I would often find myself putting 10 points into strength for a 16, and probably racially adjusting to 18. It makes less and less of a difference, however, as you level up. 3/4 BAB + buffs means you can get pretty close to what the full BAB characters are doing, if you want to be in melee.
Clerics also do not need that much charisma unless you really want to focus on channelling. Since channelling loses steam later on, it's okay to go into the game without a 14+ in charisma.
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David, I recently was working on a Combat Cleric build, so I listed it below if you're interested.
Build is a half-orc with the toothy racial variant in place of orc ferocity, giving him another attack at a -5 (why not!). Take 2 levels of fighter with the Unbreakable archetype, followed by 4 of cleric with the Crusader archetype (worshipping Gorum, channeling negative energy to harm living creatures), followed by 6 of Holy Vindicator (assuming 12 levels for PFS play).
Stats:
STR: 16 DEX: 12 CON: 15 INT: 8 WIS: 13 CHA: 14 or
STR: 17 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 8 WIS: 13 CHA: 14
Bonus Feats:
1/1: Endurance, Diehard
2: Power Attack
3: Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Normal Feats:
1. Toughness/or whatever you'd like
3. Channel Smite
5. Alignment Channel (selecting evil, so now you channel to harm living or evil, i.e. living or undead)
7. Selective Channeling
9. Heroic Defiance
11. Deathless Initiate
It's a kind of wonky build, so here's your progression.
Fort/Ref/Will
1: 2/0/0
2: 3/0/0
3: 5/0/2
4: 6/0/3
5: 6/1/3
6: 7/1/4
7: 8/1/5
8: 8/2/5
9: 9/2/6
10: 9/2/6
11: 10/3/7
12: 10/3/7
1: +1
2: +2
3: +2
4: +3
5: +4
6: +5
7: +6
8: +7
9: +8
10: +9
11: +10
12: +11
1:
2:
3: 1d6
4: 1d6
5: 2d6
6: 2d6
7: 3d6
8: 3d6
9: 4d6
10: 4d6
11: 5d6
12: 5d6
Sp. Lvl: 1 2 3 4
1. -
2. -
3. .........1
4. .........2
5. .........2 1
6. .........3 2
7. .........3 2
8. .........3 2 1
9. .........3 3 2
10. .......4 3 2 1
11. .......4 3 2 1
12. .......4 3 3 2
As you can see, you're a little behind normal spell progression, and your channel is down by 2 levels, but your BAB remains fairly strong. This build would be all about smite channeling, or just channeling and harming yourself and baddies, combining with Faith Healing to pull yourself up from negatives while still kicking around with diehard.
Gearwise you'd be looking for a +2 wisdom item to get your last level of spellcasting, and things like a Phylactery of Negative Channeling and Vicious would be required ;)
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So I'm not mistaken in perceiving the necessity for buffs on the cleric? I mean, with 20 character points, there is not a lot left after Wis/Cha. Or in my case, I just said screw it and bought 4 14s.
Side note: Will be Pming my guide to building formidable clerics in PFS later.
Buying four 14's isn't a bad idea. Two go into Wis/Cha, one goes into CON and the other can go to your weapon speciality of choice. STR=Melee or DEX for Ranged.
Also, I saw people say that you should forgo a CHA score and keep it at 10. I highly DO NOT recommend this. Reason being is that you deal with a lot of undead in PFS and in combat, if you need to mass heal, Channeling does not provoke, but all your other options to heal would. Even if you have a 12 and take Extra Channel as a feat that means you would have six channels per day. And sometimes that channel is the difference between life and death for some players.
Buffing is a part of the cleric lifestyle, but you can't rely on it. Building with strong MW armor or even taking a Heavy Armor Prof can come in handy, especially if you wish to specialize in being a battle cleric.
It's all in what you want your cleric to do. Which is why many people get frustrated with Clerics, because they take a little more time and thought than most think people think to build.
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I'm familiar with all levels of the game in 3.5, but Pathfinder is significantly different. I really didn't know what to expect when first starting off in PFS, so I should probably cut myself some slack for just kinda splitting the difference on everything and playing it safe.
Unfortunately, my feat selection is based around channeling because I thought it might be important. I picked up weapon focus at 3rd level and will probably grab power attack at 5th.
I have to also admit that I got really used to flying all the time in 3.5, and Pathfinder has kinda clamped down on that. That being said, it's been a while since I was stuck moving 20ft and it's a hard adjustment.
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Also, I saw people say that you should forgo a CHA score and keep it at 10. I highly DO NOT recommend this. Reason being is that you deal with a lot of undead in PFS and in combat, if you need to mass heal, Channeling does not provoke, but all your other options to heal would.
I thought we were talking about melee characters, not healers.
As for undead: spending points on channels so you can harm undead, when you could instead spend those points on being more effective against ALL enemies INCLUDING undead, seems pretty backwards.
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I guess another aspect that I was trying to take into account was the fact that I really don't have a set group in PFS. I didn't like the idea of going all in on a melee cleric with essentially random groups. I wasn't counting on the encounter format being "1 to 3 NPCs per room that can't hit anyone with a decent AC" that seems to dominate PFS at lower tiers.
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Side note: ...snipping lots of good stuff...
Also, I saw people say that you should forgo a CHA score and keep it at 10. I highly DO NOT recommend this. Reason being is that you deal with a lot of undead in PFS and in combat, if you need to mass heal, Channeling does not provoke, but all your other options to heal would.
....snipping more good stuff to save space...(my side note:
actually Wands also don't provike. Though they are not MASS healing, you can use them in combat. and 4 points of CHA only nets you two additional heals - which you can get with a feat (extra channel).
The issue with wands is that they are touch attacks, if you are in melee and you try and touch a fellow man, in a threatened square, it will provoke. If the wand is not already out, it takes a move to pull it out and that does provoke. Wands are helpful, but unless you are willing to do nothing but run around and heal one by one, channels do help when you have three or four people in serious conditions all at once.
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Also, I saw people say that you should forgo a CHA score and keep it at 10. I highly DO NOT recommend this. Reason being is that you deal with a lot of undead in PFS and in combat, if you need to mass heal, Channeling does not provoke, but all your other options to heal would.I thought we were talking about melee characters, not healers.
As for undead: spending points on channels so you can harm undead, when you could instead spend those points on being more effective against ALL enemies INCLUDING undead, seems pretty backwards.
Your mileage may vary, but I'm not saying that ALL your stat power should go into CHA for channel purposes. You do have to have a decent STR or DEX for your weapon of choice. But while we are healing, if you have 2 channels plus a feat makes four, add three and you have seven channels per day. Again it depends on the build and your mission as a cleric, but CHA is important. Especially in high levels when you have skills called Diplomacy, and Intimidate and Bluff, and Sense Motive that is based off of CHA and if you have a bad score that works against you as a cleric.
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The Travel domain is great, but I think that you are going to have a hard time finding a deity which has the travel domain and also supports a meele cleric by have a good weapon and another good domain choice.
I'm sure that with sufficient splatbook diving you could find one, I'll take a look later.
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The issue with wands is that they are touch attacks, if you are in melee and you try and touch a fellow man, in a threatened square, it will provoke. If the wand is not already out, it takes a move to pull it out and that does provoke. Wands are helpful, but unless you are willing to do nothing but run around and heal one by one, channels do help when you have three or four people in serious conditions all at once.
1. The touch from a healing wand does not provoke. The only part of using a touch spell that provokes is casting, and that's bypassed by the fact that you're not casting, but activating a wand, which explicitly does not provoke.
2. Drawing a wand counts as drawing a weapon or weapon-like object (wands are even given as an example) and does not provoke.
Channels do help if you have most of the party bleeding out all at once. But if that happens more times per day than 10 CHA can handle, you're already in over your head. If one person goes down and is dying, run over and CLW them with a wand so they stabilize and then get on with ending the fight.