A friend of mine is playing Pathfinder with me and it is their first experience with d20. She doesn't agree with the way prepared arcane spell casters work because "it doesn't make as much sense" as a sorcerer. The way I've explained it is that it's not that they can't simply prepare more spells than the book says they can, just that at their level of practice they can't only remember that many activations reasonably. As I understand it most of the spell is cast ahead of time (to "prepare" it) and then the last catalyst or focus is used with a command word or phrase to trigger it.
Basically, the reason they can't prepare more per day is because they're afraid of that thing that happens when you switch from "Gears of War" to "Rainbow 6: Vegas" and end up turning on your night vision when you run out of ammo because the buttons are all switched up.
So what would have if a wizard DID prepare more spells than he could 100% remember the controls for? Perhaps if your have 3 lvl 1 spells per day and he prepares 4 instead? Maybe if he does that he gets 15% spell failure chance for all spells he casts (not just the extra 1). This would increase by another 15% for each additional spell he prepares over his maximum. The spell fumble chance increases by 25% for every spell of the maximum level you can cast that is prepared above your normal limit.
Help me flesh out this idea. I wouldn't make it a permanent rule, just something we'd use for a game. So it wouldn't need to be perfectly balanced, but what do you think?
Additionally, Clerics and Paladins are not able to over prepare, their god gives them as much power as their god is going to give them. Instead they are granted access to -Dire Prayer-
Dire Prayer: A paladin or cleric can Call out for another use of a cure spell when he is out of magic, or if the magic he has left simply wont do enough good. He calls out to his patron, making a concentration check DC15+1per spell level of the cure spell he is attempting to cast. If successful, the cure spell is cast normally.
Improved Dire Prayer: As Dire Prayer, except the caster can call for a spell of any level above 5th to be returned as a healing spell that cures 1d8 points of damage for every spell level that is being prayed for, plus an additional 1 hit point per caster level. This spell acts as any other spell with cure in the name except for the number of dice it heals.
Have her play a sorc. seems like you don't need any house rules DnD has use venetian casting and its a fundamental balance and style aspect of the game. remember cantrips are unlimited use and by the time cantrips are really useless you have plenty spells per day. Also don't forget the school powers.
Have her play a sorc. seems like you don't need any house rules DnD has use venetian casting and its a fundamental balance and style aspect of the game. remember cantrips are unlimited use and by the time cantrips are really useless you have plenty spells per day. Also don't forget the school powers.
OHMYGOD I am a HUUUUGE Aria fanboy, tell me more about this Venetian Casting!
(p.s. I'm just having a little fun, no offense!!)
Have her play a sorc. seems like you don't need any house rules DnD has use venetian casting and its a fundamental balance and style aspect of the game. remember cantrips are unlimited use and by the time cantrips are really useless you have plenty spells per day. Also don't forget the school powers.OHMYGOD I am a HUUUUGE Aria fanboy, tell me more about this Venetian Casting!
(p.s. I'm just having a little fun, no offense!!)
That doesn't make a lot of sense. As I remember it, Aria was a show about doing nothing, but in a good way.
But Pathfinder and casting clearly is a lot of doing something.
I really like the idea that a wizard could try to squeeze more into his daily spell allotment with risking of mixing up the words.
You could even make a special fumble chart for that (for example the wizard mixes the triggers of two spells and looses both)
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Klaatu Barada N... Necktie... Neckturn... Nickel... It's an "N" word, it's definitely an "N" word! Klaatu... Barada... N...
That doesn't make a lot of sense. As I remember it, Aria was a show about doing nothing, but in a good way.
Indeed, but it takes place in Venice (the adjective of which is "Venetian"). I was just poking fun at BlueAria who said "venetian" instead of "Vancian."
Klaatu Barada N... Necktie... Neckturn... Nickel... It's an "N" word, it's definitely an "N" word! Klaatu... Barada... N...
I've been seeing a lot of evil dead quotes lately... i approve.
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The d20 wheel of time had an over channel system where you could really hurt your self or lose the ability to use magic for ever. I don't remember how it was done, but they had a special spell list and magic system so it would not track over well.
In any case, if there are any non casters they may feel penalized if they don't also have an amazing boon.
First of all sorcerors dont prepare spells, they know x spells and pick from them as they cast. Not sure if you have that straight or not. Wizards ofcourse do prepare, and that is based on the theme of the dying earth novels by jack vance (hence Vancian spellcasting). There was simply a hard limit of the amount of spells you could cram into your head, and once you used it, it would leave your mind completely (hence spell slots). They better you were, the more you could prepare.
That said, you should take a long hard look at spell points from unearthed arcana (in 3.5). The concept of tieing the ability to cast with fatigue and exhaustion might be more palatable to your player.
The Slayers d20 book from Guardians of Order had a non-vancian system that I always wanted to try.
I'm not sure I'd classify giving yourself an extra 25% miss chance as an "amazing boon."
I am aware that sorcerers don't prepare their magic. That is why I have specified that I am talking about prepared spell casters. I am also aware that their are other spell-casting systems and have used many of them, some of them are super cool. But, what I'm trying to do here is just tool around a little with the idea of "-why- can't I memorize more than the book says?"
I don't even have a wizard in my current party, I'm just trying to make wizard-like spell preparation make more "sense" to my players, to make the world as a whole more palatable to them. Just, entertaining a thought. Sort of a what if?
Honestly vancian casting is pretty obscure. I am not sure how profitable it would be to tweak it to make it make more 'sense' to people who dont get it initially.
And the reason this is an issue, is the ONE thing non-primary spellcasters have over primary spellcasters (like the wizard) is longevity. Even with an increased chance of failure, if I can keep on casting spells as a wizard past the normal per day limit, you nullify the one limitation they had in the first place.
This is essentially like giving the wizard a very powerful staff, which is a really expensive magic item. Consider the level where most wizards ought to be getting staves and imagine them getting that at lower levels with only the cost of an addition chance of failure.
And forget about being able to break spell levels, allowing the wizard to beat out spell level is a MASSIVE boon. That is a big division of power, and no additional chance of failure is going to stop me from using it.
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no additional chance of failure is going to stop me from using it.
Are you sure? you have 7 spells per day, and you would take a 25% failure chance to get 8? That means, statistically you'd get off 6. Massive boon my butt.
Preparing an extra for 25% more spell failure doesn't seem gamebreaking.
Well, if you're just trying to explain it to the players, I'd just say preparing more spells is "too much to remember" and a wizard that over-prepares has to make on-going concentration checks or risk losing all their spells that day (except cantrips) in a magical backlash that deals damage to the spellcaster at a rate of 1d6 per prepared spell.
That should be sufficient enough for most wizards to definitely avoid over-preparing.
When I first got into DnD i found the spells per day system really weird. And evne today i think its kind of odd.
TriOmega, your comparison doesn't really work. I mean Let's imagine you get up in the morning, and take out a list of phone numbers that include some you need to call today. You memorize the ones you want to call.
Later you call one of the numbers. Does that mean you immediately forgot the number afterwards? You would probably be able to call it again.
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But you're not forgetting the phone numbers. You're carrying cell phones that can only call one number, then the battery dies. A wizard programs them in the morning from his little black book, while the sorcerer knows three numbers but can dial any of them on any of his phones. But once the phone is used, it needs a new battery that you can't get until you go home for the night.
Tortured analogies aside, if you don't get it, you don't get it. I get it just fine. One of the biggest hangups people have is 'forgetting' the spell, which just isn't reflected in the rules. There is no mention of spell memorization or forgetting the spell once it is cast in the 3.x/PF rules. It's your own preconception held over from previous editions. You still know the spell, but you've spent the energy you invested in it, and can't use it again until you invest the energy required.
To waste more time with analogies no one will accept, you bake a bunch of pies in the morning, and eat them through the day. This doesn't mean you don't know how to make a cherry pie after eating the last one, just that you aren't having another until you take the time to bake it.
A decent analogy would rather be loading your gun. The magazine can only hold so many bullets, and once they're shot, you have to reload the gun.
So the wizard is not memorizing the spells (as in the gestures, words, materials/focusses) so much as he is just casting them into his brain (or wherever) where they are stored until cast and any other spell no matter how well he knows the components just won't work?
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So the wizard is not memorizing the spells (as in the gestures, words, materials/focusses) so much as he is just casting them into his brain (or wherever) where they are stored until cast and any other spell no matter how well he knows the components just won't work?
Look man, your discussion is not with us. It's with a nice guy called Gary who wrote this game, and with another nice guy called Jack who wrote books that inspired Gary when he laid out what we call "vancian magic".
Sadly, Gary isn't around any more, but from what I know his answer to arguments that ran along the line of "it's not logical/not realistic" was a kind smile, a gentle shrug and a jovial "yeah, but it's fun and folks like it!".
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So the wizard is not memorizing the spells (as in the gestures, words, materials/focusses) so much as he is just casting them into his brain (or wherever) where they are stored until cast and any other spell no matter how well he knows the components just won't work?
Sure, sounds right.
Would you ask a gunslinger why he can't shoot an empty gun when he has everything he needs to load it in his pocket?
Your question seems kinda odd. The reason you can't prepare more spells than you have spell slots is because you can't. You can't put 10 bullets in a six shooter either. There just isn't a way to do it.
You can make a house rule or use a different magic system but as things stand you are talking about the nuts and bolts "physics" of magic.
In my opinion, you shouldn't change it.
A Spontaneous caster can only cast the spells they know day in day out.
A Prepared caster can decide to cast a variety of spells one day, and then use a different selection the next. In addition, they may learn more spells without level using scrolls or others' spellbooks.
It brings in a little strategy, and if you learn of any advantages, a prepared caster can get a useful spell at a small cost. If you are a spontaneous caster and just happen to not have that spell, your stuck until next level.
So the wizard is not memorizing the spells (as in the gestures, words, materials/focusses) so much as he is just casting them into his brain (or wherever) where they are stored until cast and any other spell no matter how well he knows the components just won't work?Look man, your discussion is not with us. It's with a nice guy called Gary who wrote this game, and with another nice guy called Jack who wrote books that inspired Gary when he laid out what we call "vancian magic".
Sadly, Gary isn't around any more, but from what I know his answer to arguments that ran along the line of "it's not logical/not realistic" was a kind smile, a gentle shrug and a jovial "yeah, but it's fun and folks like it!".
I'm not discussing at this point, I just wanted to see if I get what previous posters said right.
Dunno how this is so hard. Wizards and sorcerers use magic, an obscure, difficult to define energy source. The only difference between the two is that wizards can be described as having less magical energy overall, whereas sorcerers are brimming with it. However, a wizard learns to harness what magical resources he or she might possess through study and practice, alotting a precise fraction of their power, aura, mojo, whatever you call it, to each spell. Sorcerers use magic as a force of will, bypassing the diagrams and theorems altogether, but limiting their breadth of skill. But at the end of the day, when your resources are burned out, it's game over for either caster. Now...if you want to cast more spells as a wizard, try playing a primalist, a shadowcaster, or carry around the appropriate items (scrolls, wands, staves).
Witches rule btw. And my witch has a book of spells...currently down to 10 worthwile pages aka scrolls.