|
i never played a ninja before (but i have played a few rogues). i need minmaxing advice.
rules
25 point buy
4 traits
must be human (tian)
1st level
max starting gold for class
must have a good reason for existing in ustalav for the carrion crown
weapon finesse/dervish dance can not be combined with power attack
other expectations
passible trapfinder (doesn't neccessarily need trapfinding), decent combatant, decent scout, okay face, able to survive the first so many levels.
i was considering making her a tian female named Akane Saitou.
|
feats; 1st: twf, weapon finesse
3rd: piranha strike
get vanishing trick, don't use it so much to get sneak attacks, use it to get into a flank without provoking AoOs
25 point by is really strong
10 str
18 dex (16 + 2 racial)
16 con
10 int
10 wis
14 cha
As far as traits go the human race trait "world traveler" makes sence
Her father or brother's name needs to be Hajime Saitou in that case...
4 traits can be a bit of an embarassment of riches... trait bonuses don't stack so you can't carry 4 traits that effect the same thing. Tian traits make the most sense -- do you have, or can you borrow or purchase, a Dragon Empires Primer? You can use the d20pfsrd if you can't but the primer has everything there for you with a buffet of nations, traits, and backgrounds to choose from.
Have you picked a weapon you'd like to use, and whether you'd rather be stealthy and dance around the edges of combat, or be up close and personal, flanking and charging into to get sneak attacks as often as possible?
Regardless, bonuses to initiative are important, so take the Reactionary trait, giving you +2 to initiative. With Stealth and a few ranks in perception, you'll be able to get into a surprise round and make a sneak attack against a flat-footed enemy, and then win initiative in the next round and make another sneak attack before the same or another enemy moves.
If you're likely to be the party face, which rogues/ninja often are since they can put points into bluff, intimidate and diplomacy, and since ninja benefit from high CHA, then a trait to boost diplomacy and Intimidate might be helpful. Since your character name sounds Tian-Min (i.e. from Minkai, the Golarian expy of Japan), you could take the Minkai regional trait of Instigator of Rebellion, which gives you a +1 trait bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate. It also could be an explanation of her presence in Ustalav; she may have fled Minkai when the local cell of rebels she was working with was destroyed. Perhaps she has despaired of Minkai liberating itself from the Jade Regent and wants to start over in a new land. You could also take Jungle Diplomat, a regional trait for the Valashmai Jungle, to get +1 to Diplomacy and +1 to Sense Motive, which could be useful since Ninjas usually don't take a high wisdom.
If the party has a bard, a paladin, or someone else who can take on 'face' duties, then taking Goka Undermarket Smuggler for +1 to Bluff and Sleight of hand, Shenmen Prospector for +1 to Appraise and Knowledge(dungeoneering), Xidao Pearl Diver for +1 to swim and appraise, or Xa Hoi Clan Artisan for +2 to a craft skill, such as Alchemy to make poison for your weapons, could all be good regional trait choices.
Heirloom weapon could be useful if you want to use a weapon that Ninjas are not usually proficient in, such as scimitar, crossbow, longsword, rapier, sap, mace, etc. These may be more available in Ustalav, but you have to pick just one. Other useful equipment traits could be Extremely Fashionable or Dealmaker.
Scholar of Ruins, to get Knowledge(dungeoneering) as a class skill, might be useful as a racial trait. I haven't played Carrion Crown, but I think it involves dungeons. Dangerously Curious (+1 to UMD) might be useful if you expect to try to use lots of magic items. Ghost Sight could possibly be useful, but I don't know whether there are incorporeal undead to worry about in Carrion Crown.
|
|
well. i'm not a fan of 2WF and my previous PC used a 2hander, so i am considering the "freehand" route. so that i can use my off hand to manipulate objects like doors and traps or quickdraw minor pieces of equipment like potions, scrolls or wands.
i might make a samurai named Hajime Saitou her father.
Dervish dancer. Use a scimitar to slice things up.
I second this, along with Piranha Strike and the Heirloom weapon trait I mentioned above. Scimitars are easier to find in non-eastern settings. If your Wakizashi gets sundered, you're screwed.
Take Skerek's ability setup as he described above. Then take the following feats:
1: Weapon Finesse Human: Dodge or Toughness (either will help keep you alive)
2: Ninja Trick: either combat trick for Piranha Strike or Dervish Dancer, or Vanishing trick
3: Piranha Strike or Dervish Dancer
4: Ninja Trick: whichever of the above you didn't take previously.
You can also use the Rogue Scout archetype with the Ninja since it swaps uncanny dodge.
Hmm, you're right, drat it. In addition, weapon finesse doesn't work with a scimitar either until you get dervish dance.
Ok, you could drop a point of Dex for 3 points of STR and take power attack instead. In that case, you'd definitely want to take dervish dancer at level 2, power attack at level 3, and vanishing trick at level 4, and put your level 4 point into DEX.
I would probably go:
Str 16 (18)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 12
Chr 14Wield a katana 2 handed. 2 handed fighting is just so much better than 2wf, even before power attack.
1st: Toughness, Dodge (or Iron will)
3rd: Weapon Focus
5th: Power Attack
7th: Furious Focus
9th: Iron Will (or dodge)
11th: Great Fortitude
This is good advice. Dervish Dance is a great idea... but ninjas are not proficient in scimitars.
I second this, along with Piranha Strike and the Heirloom weapon trait I mentioned above. Scimitars are easier to find in non-eastern settings. If your Wakizashi gets sundered, you're screwed.
If your scimitar gets sundered, you're also screwed since you're just proficient in THAT scimitar. Right?
Three feats just to use dex for damage is not a good idea, especially when you can just put the points in strength, use strength for damage and to-hit and then have three feats, like toughness, iron will and weapon focus.
Use vanishing trick. Take it. It's the best ninja trick bar none, especially since it's required to take invisible blade. Use it to avoid AoOs and slip into flank effortlessly. Your low BAB will be a real killer until you can turn invisible all the time, and then you can basically enjoy attacking nothing but flat-footed AC at a +2.
Oh. Also, have several weapons. A silver bludgeoning weapon, a cold-iron wakizashi and a crossbow go a long way.
Heirloom weapon simply gives you proficiency in a weapon. It doesn't have to be the specific weapon. In game terms, a scimitar is a scimitar, in terms of how it's used.
|
|
weekly william unfortunately ruled against the combining of dervish dance/weapon finesse with power attack. so scimitar users are screwed.(Confused)
Is this some kind of errata saying Dervish Dance and Power Attack don't work together, or are you talking about specific house rules?
specific house rule.
|
|
I would probably go:
Str 16 (18)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 12
Chr 14Wield a katana 2 handed. 2 handed fighting is just so much better than 2wf, even before power attack.
1st: Toughness, Dodge (or Iron will)
3rd: Weapon Focus
5th: Power Attack
7th: Furious Focus
9th: Iron Will (or dodge)
11th: Great Fortitude
I would follow this build, though pick up Power Attack earlier. Multi-Class with fighter 1-4 levels for armor proficiencies and armor training so you can acrobatic in spiffy armor.
Pick up talents that do not draw upon your ki. Ki should only be used for extra attacks or positioning.
Avoid the TWF trap. Always choose wielding 2HF. It deals more DPR than TWF normally which is even more apparent when using ki for extra attacks. It is less feat and ability intensive which allows you to grab feats that let you survive and focus completely on Str. The only way TWF can be viable is after significant buffs. During that time the 2HF will be killing everything in sight.
An unarmed character is only viable as a monk. The martial artist is a great archetype for the non-mystical monk.
How does weekly william feel about Ninjas taking rogue archetypes that they qualify for? (Since Ninjas are the alternate class of the rogue)?
If available, take the scout archetype.
Take the following feats:
Human Sap Adept
1st Weapon Finesse
3rd Improved Unarmed Strike
5th Sap Master
And the following Ninja Tricks:
2nd: Vanishing Trick
4th: Combat Trick (Knockout Artist)
And fight unarmed. Now, whenever you charge, your target is flat footed, which activates sap master, sap adept and Knockout artist.
This allows you to deal 1d3 (unarmed strike) + 6d6 Sneak attack (from doubled sneak attack from sap master) + 12 (Sap Adept damage bonus based on Sneak attack) + 6 (Knockout Artist damage bonus based on Sneak Attack) when you choose to do non-lethal damage.
Earlier levels you can fight with a sap or a wakizashi, graduating to the damage you see above at 5th level.
Statwise, put everything into dex, have a no penalty con and wis and put everything thats left into Cha.
The only problem is getting enhancement bonuses on your unarmed strikes I suppose, it's terribly expensive. You could either give up the bonus from knockout artist and use a sap or finagle your DM into allowing cheap (read normal) enhancing of your unarmed strike (and not 5x the cost for an amulet of mighty fists) before he realizes how much damage you can put out.
Enjoy,
prototype00
|
|
i can ask him if he will allow me to enchant my unarmed strikes. he has allowed it before.
the free action to drop a weapon isn't worth a move action to pick it back up. which is another reason i want the free hand. i intend to deal with traps, doors and similar stuff as well. and dropped tools are going to be a pain to pick up.
And not everyone agrees that sap adept / sap master works quite like prototype spelled out. (For example, you still only have 3d6 sneak attack, even though you're rolling 6d6 for damage, so you wouldn't get +12 or +6, you'd get +6 and +3.) Its never, to my knowledge, been clarified one way or the other though.are 2WF and 2HW really the only routes?
i was hoping for freehand or unarmed as options too.
Eh, it's the 6d6 that I'm most concerned about, and that definitely triggers off enemies being flat footed. The static mods are just gravy. And 9 points of free damage is nothing to sniff at.
Solas, if you can enchant your unarmed strikes, pick up the agile enhancement that will allow you to add your dex bonus to finesseable weapons. Actually that probably applies to any build where you use finessable weapons, best value +1 enhancement for the rogue/ninja really.
prototype00
|
|
And not everyone agrees that sap adept / sap master works quite like prototype spelled out. (For example, you still only have 3d6 sneak attack, even though you're rolling 6d6 for damage, so you wouldn't get +12 or +6, you'd get +6 and +3.) Its never, to my knowledge, been clarified one way or the other though.are 2WF and 2HW really the only routes?
i was hoping for freehand or unarmed as options too.
Eh, it's the 6d6 that I'm most concerned about, and that definitely triggers off enemies being flat footed. The static mods are just gravy. And 9 points of free damage is nothing to sniff at.
Solas, if you can enchant your unarmed strikes, pick up the agile enhancement that will allow you to add your dex bonus to finesseable weapons. Actually that probably applies to any build where you use finessable weapons, best value +1 enhancement for the rogue/ninja really.
prototype00
what book is the agile property in?
Pathfinder Society Field Guide? :P It's also up on the pathfinder OGC page, if that makes your DM feel any better.
prototype00
Heirloom weapon simply gives you proficiency in a weapon. It doesn't have to be the specific weapon. In game terms, a scimitar is a scimitar, in terms of how it's used.
Heirloom Weapon
You carry a non-masterwork simple or martial weapon that has been passed down from generation to generation in your family.
*Benefit: When you select this trait, choose one of the following benefits:
proficiency with that specific weapon
a +1 trait bonus on attacks of opportunity with that specific weapon
a +2 trait bonus on one kind of combat maneuver when using that specific weapon.Note: You pay the standard gp cost for the weapon.
There's a disconnect between the bolded texts in these two posts.
|
|
well, since weekly william tends to use a lot of sunder and item theft. i think an unarmed ninja wouldn't be so bad.
Just steal the items off his dead corpse and sunder them later :)
A melee combatant aside from the monk should always focus on DPR over status effects or fancy manuevers. Let the spellcasters and monks worry about that, you have it simple: Just kill whatever you hit. One of the reasons I dislike critical feats because they soak up feats that could be spent elsewhere and apply a status to something that should be dead by next round anyways.
It's the same concept with stealing, feinting, ect. Mechanically they just don't work as well as slaying your opponent.
|
Oh, I so would be angry in your position. I like my houserules upfront. I can just see my self flipping out after building my character, and having the dm say "my houserules don't let you do that, sorry, I didn't tell you before".
I would ask prior to any build, as it could be the difference between an awesome, or terrible pc.
4 traits are nice, but trait bonuses don´t stack like said above.
You can look that you choose different traits, boosting +hit, damage, saves etc. Maybe there is a trait for trapfinding, since ninjas give it up.
Ninja´s prime stats are DEX and CHA, so i would max those.
A wakizashi with weapon finesse is a solid choice. You can get keen or critical mastery on it later to improve damage and the agile enhancement. I also recommend weapon focus eventually.
Everything that lowers you +hit bonus like TWF or Power attack is more situational. You will need the best +hit often enough to hit anyway and sneak attack makes enough damage normally.
Better concentrate on getting sneak attack more often then not with flanking, feinting or other tricks.
In melee some trick to raise your survival chance is also recommended, examples are offensive defense, shadow clone, or other such talents or any suiting combination of it.
To disable magical traps you could try to buy a wand of Aram Zeys trapward or the other Aram Zey spell from Pathfinder soceity field guide.
|
|
i plan to used those traits to shore up my to fort, will, initiative and unarmed damage.
i have a rough unarmed build with
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 14
it doesn't have as much to hit or AC as one would expect at first. but that can easily be shored up by items.
the enhanced int gives more skill points, the wis gives better perception and will saves, the enhanced constitution gives better hit points and fort saves. and i could always exploit vows to get extra Ki. so what if i lose face duty? a vow of silence and vow of fasting will eventually in the endgame provide the equivalent of 2 extra Ki feats and i can always find a way to pick up sign language.
sneak attack can carry the needed damage just fine.
|
|
are 2WF and 2HW really the only routes?
i was hoping for freehand or unarmed as options too.
my favorite ninja is a flurry of stars hidden waves ninja.
its up to 4 levels of oricle and ninja. you get to toss, with twf chain, up to 9 ninja stars at level 12 from inside an obscuring mist spell. you can deal a s%** ton of damage. 9d2 + 56d6 sneak attack (up to 6d6 per attack) + 9x STR, assuming all of your attacks hit the target, depending on how you build it
my build is something like:
ninja 1-2
oricle 3
fighter 4 (weapon master)
ninja 5
fighter 6-7
ninja 8-12
your sneak attack is only 4d6 at 12 instead of 6d6, but you only net a -4 on all your main attacks, which is made up for getting hit by the ninja through the mist.
ffeats are
human- twf
1- weapon focus ninja star
3- point blank
4f-rapid shot
5 quick draw
this is as far as i remember off the top of my head.
the Ki pool does look tempting, but so does the rogue's trapfinding.
If you want trapfinding as a Ninja, one way is to take a single level of Trapper ranger, which will give you a small boost to your BAB, a favored enemy which can be useful once you see what kind of creatures you're facing most often, greater weapon and armor selection, a +1 to finding and disabling traps, and the ability to disarm magical traps just like a rogue.
i plan to used those traits to shore up my to fort, will, initiative and unarmed damage.
i have a rough unarmed build with
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 14it doesn't have as much to hit or AC as one would expect at first. but that can easily be shored up by items.
the enhanced int gives more skill points, the wis gives better perception and will saves, the enhanced constitution gives better hit points and fort saves. and i could always exploit vows to get extra Ki. so what if i lose face duty? a vow of silence and vow of fasting will eventually in the endgame provide the equivalent of 2 extra Ki feats and i can always find a way to pick up sign language.
sneak attack can carry the needed damage just fine.
Are you going to be doing a monk/ninja? The monk vows are only available to monks. If so, you only have to pump Wisdom or Charisma as long as you take at least 4 monk levels; when you get the ninja ki pool, it says that if you have a ki pool from another class you can decide which stat it uses. Wisdom would be the obvious choice if you're not going to be the party face. Zen Archer monk synergizes really effectively with Ninja, but so do a number of other monk archetypes.
The unarmed problem is more that an amulett of mighty fists is really expensive and can only be +5 enhancement overall.
But of course its nice playing oportunity.
Dipping into monk costs one point BAB, but opens up other stuff.
WIS to AC (but thats better for a rogue with ki pool, because you then only max DEX and WIS).
3 levels monk give you acces to the monastic legacy feat, raising your unarmed damage.
Get a monk´s robe for higher monk bonuses.
Combine this with Unarmed Combat Mastery master trick and you end up with a real high damage. (8monk(3lvl+5monks robe)+ninja-4+1/2non-monk) This can make up for 2d8 at level 13 already, what is level 19 normal monk.
|
|
Are you going to be doing a monk/ninja? The monk vows are only available to monks. If so, you only have to pump Wisdom or Charisma as long as you take at least 4 monk levels; when you get the ninja ki pool, it says that if you have a ki pool from another class you can decide which stat it uses. Wisdom would be the obvious choice if you're not going to be the party face. Zen Archer monk synergizes really effectively with Ninja, but so do a number of other monk archetypes.i plan to used those traits to shore up my to fort, will, initiative and unarmed damage.
i have a rough unarmed build with
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 14it doesn't have as much to hit or AC as one would expect at first. but that can easily be shored up by items.
the enhanced int gives more skill points, the wis gives better perception and will saves, the enhanced constitution gives better hit points and fort saves. and i could always exploit vows to get extra Ki. so what if i lose face duty? a vow of silence and vow of fasting will eventually in the endgame provide the equivalent of 2 extra Ki feats and i can always find a way to pick up sign language.
sneak attack can carry the needed damage just fine.
according to the SRD, ninjas can take vows too. (or anyone with a Ki pool)