Adding Class levels to monsters and CR calculations

[EvilMinion]

So, at some point, does adding class levels to monster X, change it from being Monster X with Y class levels, to it being a level Y class, who also happens to be X?

For instance take a low CR critter, say a Worg. Our worg is a 4HD creature CR 2. And we will assume falls into the combat category of monsters.

Now this particular Worg has been watching alot of animated movies and decides that he doesn't want to chew on people so much as sing to them. So he starts taking levels in Bard. Bard being non-key for our combat oriented Worg, he goes up one CR for every 2 levels he gains.

So if I have a 16th level worg bard... he would be considered CR 10.
By comparison, if I had a 16th level human bard... he would be considered CR 15.

This seems odd to me. At what point do you say this is not a worg that knows some less useful bard stuff, to this is a bard, that happens to have some less useful worg stuff and bump it up to CR 16 or 17? (ie: more like a level adjustment)

Is there some rule that if your pc class levels equal or surpass your CR or your HD the computation shifts the other way?

Seems like there's alot of balance issues with adding too many pc class levels to npc monsters at only half CR cost without a rule of this sort in place, but I can't seem to find anything.

[Turin the Mad]

Non-key classes add 2 levels per +1 CR until you hit twice CR.

CR 2 worg +4 levels of bard = CR 4, +1 CR per bard level after 4th. A 16th level worg bard would be a CR 16.

[EvilMinion]

Hmm... reading comprehension is important!
Guess I never quite registered that last sentence or two.

[O11O1]

Worgs cannot speak, can they? That seems like it would mess up all his verbal components for spells

[Jeraa]

O11O1 wrote:

Worgs cannot speak, can they? That seems like it would mess up all his verbal components for spells

Worgs speak both Common and Goblin.

[Drakedragon]

I have a related question, except this is about a specific monster. The Skeleton Champion in the Bestiary.

The bestiary says the CR of the Skeleton Champion is the same as a Skeleton of equal HD + 1. But unlike Skeletons, Skeleton Champions keep any HD they had from class levels and the associated abilities that came with them. So a Skeleton with 10-11 HD is a CR 5, and a Skeleton Champion with 10-11 HD (8-9 of which are, say, Fighter), is a CR 6. How does that work? If it has 8-9 levels in Fighter, shouldn't it be of comparable if not higher CR? Because the way that works out confuses me.

[Turin the Mad]

Skeletal champion keeps HD from class levels, so the CR from those levels comes BEFORE the template, not after.

A 9th level Fighter skeletal champion is a CR 9 (8 from NPC fighter +1 from skeletal champion).

[blahpers]

Drakedragon wrote:

I have a related question, except this is about a specific monster. The Skeleton Champion in the Bestiary.

The bestiary says the CR of the Skeleton Champion is the same as a Skeleton of equal HD + 1. But unlike Skeletons, Skeleton Champions keep any HD they had from class levels and the associated abilities that came with them. So a Skeleton with 10-11 HD is a CR 5, and a Skeleton Champion with 10-11 HD (8-9 of which are, say, Fighter), is a CR 6. How does that work? If it has 8-9 levels in Fighter, shouldn't it be of comparable if not higher CR? Because the way that works out confuses me.

I think that's an error in the bestiary. The header for the template says "CR +1", which typically means 1 higher than the CR of the creature to which you are applying the template. The CR description, on the other hand, depicts it as 1 higher than a similar HD skeleton would be. The former makes more sense (CR of a "normal" NPC level 9 fighter = CR 8; CR of a skeletal champion level 9 fighter = CR 9). The latter makes no sense, especially given that the template header does not being with CR (+Varies) the way others do.

Since the rules effectively contradict each other, go with the one that makes sense. Better yet, playtest it yourself and see if the creature feels more like a CR 9 or a CR 6.

[Drakedragon]

Alright, thank you. That's much appreciated. I guess I was looking at that from the wrong angle then.