Fighter Archetypes and Gloves of Dueling

[Veldebrand]

I read in another thread where someone recommended that someone who wanted to make a dex based fighter take the brawler archetype and get gloves of dueling.

Being a new Pathfinder player myself, I had thought about that when discovering the Gloves of Dueling magic item but assumed it wouldn't work because the Brawler gives up weapon training.

Is the weapon training still a class feature and renamed for the archetypes that 'replace' it? If that were the case gloves of dueling would be great for fighter archetypes. If not then a lot of the archetypes are sub par just for the simple fact they give up the possibility of using gloves of dueling for the +2 bonus to weapon training.

-Vel

[Helaman]

I believe you specifically need weapon training

[Jiggy]

An archetype does not retain any piece of a class feature that it replaces, not even the name (unless the replacement just happens to be named the same thing).

[Helaman]

One archetype that works is the weapon master... it only works for ONE weapon but by the time you can afford gloves of dueling that shouldn't be an issue.

[Joyd]

RAW, it doesn't work at all. A kind DM might allow very similar features to work with Gloves of Dueling anyway. (Since if you don't, it makes a lot of archetypes kind of sadface, but that's the price you pay.)

[oneplus999]

If you are in a PFS game, it'd probably have to be ruled that you can't use Gloves of Dueling, just because there's nothing I'm aware of that provides and exception for archetypes, even when the abilities are so obviously interchangeable.

However, in any sane homegame, I would hope your DM is more sensible. Achetypes came out after APG, the fact that the gloves don't account for these changes I think is pretty clearly something that there's no way they could account for. If every archetype feature needed this type of rules clarification, it would just get too bloated. Another example: Monk's Robes give +1 stunning fist per day, what about all the archetypes that give something else used at the same frequency as stunning fist (eg Flowing Monk's redirect)? It's completely reasonable to suggest those archetypes also get an extra use per day, but it's just something you and your DM have to decide for yourselves.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Rules-As-Written, it probably doesn't work.

Rules-As-Sane, if a fighter archetype's +x attack damage weapon training replacement DOESN'T work with gloves of duelling, congratulations. You've just made that archetype functionally obsolete! Mundane Fighter is now better w/ your specialty weapon group than you are! RAS dictates this should not freaking happen.

PFS obviously uses RAW. Any decent DM in a home game should be using RAS.

[cartmanbeck]

oneplus999 wrote:

If you are in a PFS game, it'd probably have to be ruled that you can't use Gloves of Dueling, just because there's nothing I'm aware of that provides and exception for archetypes, even when the abilities are so obviously interchangeable.

However, in any sane homegame, I would hope your DM is more sensible. Achetypes came out after APG, the fact that the gloves don't account for these changes I think is pretty clearly something that there's no way they could account for. If every archetype feature needed this type of rules clarification, it would just get too bloated. Another example: Monk's Robes give +1 stunning fist per day, what about all the archetypes that give something else used at the same frequency as stunning fist (eg Flowing Monk's redirect)? It's completely reasonable to suggest those archetypes also get an extra use per day, but it's just something you and your DM have to decide for yourselves.

+1