Granted this is just my preliminary look at this, and I'm terrible at math, but it seems to me that a half-elf or elf should start adventuring quite a bit later than the rulebook shows.
Here's why I think that:
Optimistic lifespan of an elf: 1000+ years. (Referenced very clearly in Elves of Golarion)
Optimistic lifespan of a human (in a harsh fantasy world): 75-80 years.
Shouldn't then the optimistic lifespan of a true half-elf be somewhere in the neighborhood of 400 to 500+ years?
If that's the case, then we're looking at a reduced aging process in the half-elf of about 6.25 (500/80) years to one year. Which, much as the title suggests, is kind of like reverse dog years. A dog ages about 7 years for every year of life. Which means that a 2 year old dog is really closer to 14 years old (which is why they go through that cranky teenage phase sometimes). If you put that in reverse, and say that for every 6.25 years a half-elf ages, they've really only aged one year (at least insofar as physical/emotional maturity goes -- pity on the poor human mother that has to nurse the child for 7 years... :P) then they would have to be 125 years old to be at the same maturity level as a 20 year old human.
If that math has value, then the starting adventuring age for an actual elf should be closer to a range of 200-250 years.
Now, before you start throwing out at me the fact that it's a fantasy world and elves are fantasy creatures, and physiology is just as made up as everything else, maybe they age quicker at the beginning and then slow down at some point, please know that I get it. This is not an exercise in me saying the books are wrong, or the races aren't following the physics of actual physiology. All I'm saying is that the numbers seem kind of off, purely from a mathematical (which I've admitted on several occasions I'm terrible at) perspective.
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'Dog years' are an aproximation, and a bad one. They break down completely with old or young dogs.
Most dogs achieve adulthood at 12-15 months and live 10-13 years for a medium sized dog, 15-16 for a smaller breed. Larger dog breeds reach maturity at more like 2 years, but tend to only last 7 or 8. In neither case are those numbers a good approximation (unless you think people reach physical maturity at 9 and die at 112 or reach physical maturity at 14 but die at 50).
In dogs, and indeed animals in general, length of childhood/adolescence has almost nothing to do with lengthy of life. Tortoises, for example, reach sexual maturity between 6 and 10 years old (depending on type) but live as long as people, and potentially longer (the record is 188 years).
So, no, Elves don't need to age at a precise multiple of human rates. Hell, the people who advocate elves reaching maturity at human rates and then aging slowly are entirely reasonable: There's no reason it shouldn't work that way.
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Perhaps they reach human maturity at relative human ages and then continue to mature to their vaunted elf or half-elf maturity?
Mergy wrote: Perhaps they reach human maturity at relative human ages and then continue to mature to their vaunted elf or half-elf maturity? Not in Golarion. It's specifically mentioned that they're children for decades...which is cool, I'm just saying that different species age/come to maturity and wildly different rates, so the other way works, too. Both options are equally realistic (or unrealistic), as are most other versions of their aging.
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Overall age/starting age/no difference in accumulation of XP is an insoluble mess that it's best to ignore, IMO. Elves learn way slower than humans for undefined reasons, until they become 1st level, then they solve that problem and learn at the same rate, via an undefined mechanic.
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Chobemaster wrote: Overall age/starting age/no difference in accumulation of XP is an insoluble mess that it's best to ignore, IMO. Elves learn way slower than humans for undefined reasons, until they become 1st level, then they solve that problem and learn at the same rate, via an undefined mechanic. Yeah. Thats why I've lowered elves starting age to 20 (they do take slightly longer to mature. And instead of the random starting ages being based on both race and class, everyone just uses the same variable (The lowest amount on the table.) So regardless of race:
Barbarians, Rogues, Sorcerers add 1d4 years
Bards, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers add 1d6 years
Clerics, Druids, Monks, Wizards add 2d6 years
First, 1000+ is beyond optimistic for PF elves. The core rules give Venerable as 350 and max age as that +4d100. Does Elves of Golarion give alternate aging rules for elves?
My problem with elven ages is that they do spend far to long as children compared to their adult lifespan. They reach adulthood after 110 years and then spend only 65 before reaching middle age, 88 in middle-age and 87 as old, then up to 400! as venerable.
No other race spends longer in childhood than adulthood. Dwarves are actually adults for longer than elves: 85 years.
If we wanted elves to have lives proportionally like humans and used Venerable as the baseline, they'd get 5 times as long at each stage:
Adult|Middle-Age|old|Venerable|+Max Age
75 | 175 |265| 350 |+2d100
As it is it seems to me far too many elves are children and far too many old and frail. Neither of which matches the standard fantasy image of elves as always adult but youthful.
Jeraa wrote: Chobemaster wrote: Overall age/starting age/no difference in accumulation of XP is an insoluble mess that it's best to ignore, IMO. Elves learn way slower than humans for undefined reasons, until they become 1st level, then they solve that problem and learn at the same rate, via an undefined mechanic. Yeah. Thats why I've lowered elves starting age to 20 (they do take slightly longer to mature. And instead of the random starting ages being based on both race and class, everyone just uses the same variable (The lowest amount on the table.) So regardless of race:
Barbarians, Rogues, Sorcerers add 1d4 years
Bards, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers add 1d6 years
Clerics, Druids, Monks, Wizards add 2d6 years You do the same for other races as well? Dwarves, gnomes etc?
Cause it's not just elves. Dwarves take 40 years to get to where a human gets in 15.
MendedWall12 wrote:
Optimistic lifespan of an elf: 1000+ years. (Referenced very clearly in Elves of Golarion)
No it doesn't. IT says:
Quote: The full measure of an elven lifespan is unknown to outsiders, but most agree that it can last for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. That is not saying that elves can live for a thousand years. It says that most non-elves believe that elves can that long. Just because others believe that doesn't make it true.
Quote: You do the same for other races as well? Dwarves, gnomes etc?
Cause it's not just elves. Dwarves take 40 years to get to where a human gets in 15.
Yes.
Dwarves, gnomes, and half-elves: 18
half-orcs: 14 (unchanged)
halfling: 15
Jeraa wrote:
No it doesn't. IT says:
Quote: The full measure of an elven lifespan is unknown to outsiders, but most agree that it can last for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. That is not saying that elves can live for a thousand years. It says that most non-elves believe that elves can that long. Just because others believe that doesn't make it true.
That's a bit of a reach, IMO. If "most agree" on something, it's likely that there is some level of evidence to support it. If there's a world-wide misapprehension about the age of a major race, you would think they would want to be explicit about it and why, rather than just imply it in passing.
Elves of Golarion--emphasis mine wrote: Elves do not suffer the ravages of age the way other races do. Though it’s still possible to read their relative ages in their faces, with the most ancient elves possessing a more handsome, ethereal look than the girlish appeal of an elf in her low hundreds, all remain unquestionably beautiful. The full measure of an elven lifespan is unknown to outsiders, but most agree that it can last for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Of course, elves can and do expire from mortal wounds, but the ones who survive a violent world for more than a dozen or so centuries tend to move on to different planets, planes, or dimensions long before anyone sees them expire from age. Elven tales say that the eldest travel to places where age is irrelevant, and call that answer enough. dictionary.com-Optimistic wrote: disposed to take a favorable view of events or conditions and to expect the most favorable outcome. I'd say that definitively puts an optimistic elven lifespan at 1000+. 12 centuries is 1200 years.
So would that override for the Golarion setting the ages given in the Core?
That description, in fact, implies that they do not die of old age, but either are slain or "move on to different planets, planes, or dimensions long before anyone sees them expire from age."
Seems a bit odd to live for well over half your life in frail venerable old age: -6 penalties to Str, Dex and Con.
You may live for a dozen centuries or more but you'll be weak and crippled for most of it. For a human equivalent, imagine aging normally to 70+ or so then spending a couple more centuries in that physical condition.
thejeff wrote: So would that override for the Golarion setting the ages given in the Core?
That description, in fact, implies that they do not die of old age, but either are slain or "move on to different planets, planes, or dimensions long before anyone sees them expire from age."
Seems a bit odd to live for well over half your life in frail venerable old age: -6 penalties to Str, Dex and Con.
You may live for a dozen centuries or more but you'll be weak and crippled for most of it. For a human equivalent, imagine aging normally to 70+ or so then spending a couple more centuries in that physical condition.
Exactly. Which was kind of the reason for my original post. The math seems off. The math in your original post seems to be much more "realistic."
MendedWall12 wrote: thejeff wrote: So would that override for the Golarion setting the ages given in the Core?
That description, in fact, implies that they do not die of old age, but either are slain or "move on to different planets, planes, or dimensions long before anyone sees them expire from age."
Seems a bit odd to live for well over half your life in frail venerable old age: -6 penalties to Str, Dex and Con.
You may live for a dozen centuries or more but you'll be weak and crippled for most of it. For a human equivalent, imagine aging normally to 70+ or so then spending a couple more centuries in that physical condition.
Exactly. Which was kind of the reason for my original post. The math seems off. The math in your original post seems to be much more "realistic." It's not just the math though. Ages more than a thousand years explicitly contradict the Core elf ages description: Max Age at 350+4d100, which sets a hard limit of 750. I guess you could assume all of the really old elves use magic to stay younger. Maybe the vast majority "do expire from mortal wounds" long before then.
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Chobemaster wrote: Overall age/starting age/no difference in accumulation of XP is an insoluble mess that it's best to ignore, IMO. Elves learn way slower than humans for undefined reasons, until they become 1st level, then they solve that problem and learn at the same rate, via an undefined mechanic. I think the simplest solution to that problem is to accept that PC/adventurer XP gain is the anomaly. It's the flip side of the also common complaint that PCs can go from nobodies to among the most powerful high-level characters on the planet in just a couple years of game time. IIRC, less than a year passes in most APs.
The answer, IMO, is to assume that the PCs experience is exceptional. Whether due to some internal characteristics or to the intense pressure of their adventures, they learn far faster than normal. Most NPCs, of whatever race, even those with PC classes, do not go up levels by quick adventuring, but by long slow training or practice. Thus elves (and dwarves and gnomes, etc.) do tend to learn more slowly than humans throughout their careers.
That or there really is supposed to be a physiological difference that takes place in the lives of elves once they choose to adventure... ?
Elves of Golarion wrote: Those elves who interact most with humans are already outliers within their society, and as a result are more susceptible to the “transient” races’ desperate urge to leave a mark on the world. After all, what need does an elf have to leave his mark when he knows he’ll remain long after any monuments have crumbled to dust? This quote seems to suggest that the elves that leave elven society to traffic with the shorter lived races take on some of their qualities for a time. Perhaps they age differently once they've left the tranquility of their meditative paradises behind.
MendedWall12 wrote:
This quote seems to suggest that the elves that leave elven society to traffic with the shorter lived races take on some of their qualities for a time. Perhaps they age differently once they've left the tranquility of their meditative paradises behind.
That elves or other long-lived functional equivalents thereto can somehow "catch" mortality, or that immortality is a function of some environmental factor (nectar and ambrosia, Idun's apples, fountain of youth, etc) are not uncommon fantasy tropes, either, so you're not totally out in left field w/ that approach.
the age thing tneds to be more npc elves.
does not mean that a 30 year olf elf can't go on an adventure
Well as far as the age cap goes 1000-1200 years isnt unreasonable if you assume that the elf in question is a 20th level wizard/alchemist and has the immortality discovery. Especially considering the strong wizard tradition in pathfinder elves it's not THAT big a stretch. So most elves kick off around 400, but a powerful core of extremely high level elves make it to immortality and eventually move somewhere else when the neighbors get to loud. Also IMO anything out of elves of golarion ought to be taken with a grain of slat most(or all) of it was written before the core rulebook was finalized and is overpowered.
Steelfiredragon wrote: the age thing tneds to be more npc elves.
does not mean that a 30 year olf elf can't go on an adventure
While players/DMs can do whatever they want in their own games, the rules are pretty clear:
Quote: Age
You can choose or randomly generate your character's age. If you choose it, it must be at least the minimum age for the character's race and class. Alternatively, roll the dice indicated for your class on Table: Random Starting Ages and add the result to the minimum age of adulthood for your race to determine how old your character is.
So you'll never find an elven wizard less then 120 years old, or a dwarven cleric less then 47. Those are the minimum ages for those race/class combinations. At least by the rules. (However, the rules in this case are stupid, and should be ignored.)
Actually, I like those rules. I like elves being older and maturing more slowly than humans. And dwarves and gnomes and others.
In my world, and I think the most direct reading of the rules, a 30 year old elf is a child, physically, mentally and emotionally, about the equivalent of a 5 year old human.
I like more differences between the races. More weird viewpoints to consider. I'd like to see a player race that aged much more quickly than humans. Maybe adult at 5 or 6 and dead of old age by 30-40.
I also had an idea for a character the last time this discussion came up: An elf with the Adopted trait, raised by several generations of descendents of his dead parents adventuring companions. All sorts of fun issues with that boy.
Also, Elves of Golarion was a 3.5 supplement, predating the PF Core rules. I'm not sure everything in it is canon for the current game.
OTOH, the ages section in the core book is directly from 3.5 so there's no indication of an actual change of intent.
The EoG description seems to be a very Tolkienesque take on elves. More so than in the Core rules. Unless slain, they don't die of age, but move on to other places.
That's a fun take on them too, but it definitely clashes with the Core rules, so either Golarion elves are not the same as the Core version, which is certainly possible, or the EoG description is outdated.
The 3.5 version of Golarion (Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting) says:
Quote: The races of Golarion are identical in their game statistics to those presented in the PH. The Pathfinder version (Inner Sea World Guide) has no racial stats at all - so they would default to what is presented in the core rulebook.
Neither book has different aging tables, so the default is still used. Elves of Golarion is simply wrong about elves lifespan (its nothing more then fluff, not backed up by mechanics.)
But isn't that fluff that was created as a setting supplement to the 3.5 rules? In which case it's fluff based on mechanics. I think the key here is perhaps a separation between Player Character elves, and Non Player Character Elves.
As Chobemaster and proftobe point out, there are universal fantasy tropes and also mechanical ideas that could easily account for the longevity.
If, in fact, elves that choose to adventure with the short-lived races "catch" mortality, or separate themselves from whatever age-slowing things (foods, drinks, meditations, philosophies, etc.) they'd normally be around, the mechanics and fluff could actually be very much in line.
Personally, I've never liked the idea that elves aren't physically mature until 100 years of age either. Personally, in my games the "age of adulthood" refers more along the ones of when the individual is old enough to want to leave home and start adventuring, rather then any indication of physical maturity.
However, childhood as a whole is traditionally avoided like the plague in Dungeons and Dragons; there are no youngster age categories, there is no information on the life cycles of most non-human creatures, and we're even left to rely on our own knowledge of human biology to determine how humans age.
Golden-Esque wrote: Personally, I've never liked the idea that elves aren't physically mature until 100 years of age either. Personally, in my games the "age of adulthood" refers more along the ones of when the individual is old enough to want to leave home and start adventuring, rather then any indication of physical maturity.
However, childhood as a whole is traditionally avoided like the plague in Dungeons and Dragons; there are no youngster age categories, there is no information on the life cycles of most non-human creatures, and we're even left to rely on our own knowledge of human biology to determine how humans age.
Let alone the gestation periods, and childhood of non-humans. I don't think in any rulebook or supplement I've ever read, that gestational time-periods have ever been addressed. If somebody knows of a book that discusses the gestation of the various races, I'd love to see it. EoG says that Quote: Births are rare among elvenkind, so much so that the successful birthing of a newborn is an event for the whole community. Celebrations often last for weeks as community members give their blessing and items to assist in the child’s care and development. Oracles and divinations are consulted daily throughout pregnancy, and the information gained goes into the child’s naming and upbringing for the first century or so. This would make it seem as though the gestational period itself is much longer than normal. It also hints at the fact that an elven child is still being "brought up" for at least the first century. Yet the race stats in the rulebook says 110 is adulthood. Of course, with humans, depending on the nation, 18 years old is considered adulthood. I look back at myself at age 18 and at the 18 year olds in my classroom and think how young I was/they are. "They're just kids," I think to myself.
MendedWall12 wrote: Golden-Esque wrote: Personally, I've never liked the idea that elves aren't physically mature until 100 years of age either. Personally, in my games the "age of adulthood" refers more along the ones of when the individual is old enough to want to leave home and start adventuring, rather then any indication of physical maturity.
However, childhood as a whole is traditionally avoided like the plague in Dungeons and Dragons; there are no youngster age categories, there is no information on the life cycles of most non-human creatures, and we're even left to rely on our own knowledge of human biology to determine how humans age.
Let alone the gestation periods, and childhood of non-humans. I don't think in any rulebook or supplement I've ever read, that gestational time-periods have ever been addressed. If somebody knows of a book that discusses the gestation of the various races, I'd love to see it. EoG says that Quote: Births are rare among elvenkind, so much so that the successful birthing of a newborn is an event for the whole community. Celebrations often last for weeks as community members give their blessing and items to assist in the child’s care and development. Oracles and divinations are consulted daily throughout pregnancy, and the information gained goes into the child’s naming and upbringing for the first century or so. This would make it seem as though the gestational period itself is much longer than normal. It also hints at the fact that an elven child is still being "brought up" for at least the first century. Yet the race stats in the rulebook says 110 is adulthood. Of course, with humans, depending on the nation, 18 years old is considered adulthood. I look back at myself at age 18 and at the 18 year olds in my classroom and think how young I was/they are. "They're just kids," I think to myself. And then notice that the age humans are considered adult in PF is 15. Not actually uncommon in history. They can start adventuring a year or two later.
Seems odd if the other races mature just as fast, physically and mentally, but simply don't bother doing anything for decades.
Jeraa wrote: Steelfiredragon wrote: the age thing tneds to be more npc elves.
does not mean that a 30 year olf elf can't go on an adventure
While players/DMs can do whatever they want in their own games, the rules are pretty clear:
Quote: Age
You can choose or randomly generate your character's age. If you choose it, it must be at least the minimum age for the character's race and class. Alternatively, roll the dice indicated for your class on Table: Random Starting Ages and add the result to the minimum age of adulthood for your race to determine how old your character is.
So you'll never find an elven wizard less then 120 years old, or a dwarven cleric less then 47. Those are the minimum ages for those race/class combinations. At least by the rules. (However, the rules in this case are stupid, and should be ignored.) oh yeah...
however thems mabe what the rules say but the rules also say not etched in stone and the PCs ARE and always will be the EXCEPTION to all the rules.
even side trails around rules... for instance a fighter can get the imortality arcane secret. said fighter though would have to be able to find and or know a wizard who does know it and is willing to sell it as the fighter cant research.
Rule 0 is king
maybe elves that dont have contact with other races live that long, being around those insane humans does tend to make you age faster.
thejeff wrote: First, 1000+ is beyond optimistic for PF elves. The core rules give Venerable as 350 and max age as that +4d100. Does Elves of Golarion give alternate aging rules for elves?
My problem with elven ages is that they do spend far to long as children compared to their adult lifespan. They reach adulthood after 110 years and then spend only 65 before reaching middle age, 88 in middle-age and 87 as old, then up to 400! as venerable.
No other race spends longer in childhood than adulthood. Dwarves are actually adults for longer than elves: 85 years.
If we wanted elves to have lives proportionally like humans and used Venerable as the baseline, they'd get 5 times as long at each stage:
Adult|Middle-Age|old|Venerable|+Max Age
75 | 175 |265| 350 |+2d100
As it is it seems to me far too many elves are children and far too many old and frail. Neither of which matches the standard fantasy image of elves as always adult but youthful.
Yep, and as a consequence of this, many pro-elf players have tried to argue no no, they physically mature very quickly, they aren't vulnerable for years upon years. They even have some side sources to back them up, but the base rules are quite clear.
Elven child hero militia to the fore!
There is also the fluff that says almost no matter their age, they don't look it. Course, their stats still get adjusted.
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The way I handled it in my game world (Note : Homebrew!) was this :
Halflings, Gnomes, and Humans all live about the same time. They're the ephemeral races.
Dwarves, Elves, and Drow are the elder races, and they live for a very long time (or a VERY VERY long time, see below).
90% of all Dwarves, Elves, and Drow are 'core' book variations. They all tend to take about twice as long as humans to grow to adulthood (about 30 years). They tend to live to around 300 or 400 years as adults, another 200 or so as middle aged, another 200 or so as old, another 200 or so as venerable, and finally another 200 or so as ancient. So the maximum lifespan of most dwarves, elves and drow are about a 1000 years (discounting misadventure).
10% of all Dwarves, Elves, and Drow are 'Nobles'. Noble Drow (from the bestiary), or the Elven or Dwarven equivalents. All of these grow up at the same rate (about 30 years to adulthood). However, once they hit 'adult', they just sort of stop aging physically. Mentally, they still pick up the various age ranges, but physically, they just sort of stop around late adult and hang out for centuries.
How do they handle these super long lifespans? Well, few actually do. Every 1000 years or so, the nobles usually undergo a rite to 'reset' their spirits. They suppress all their knowledge, all their skills, their memories, and then awaken as if newborn (level 1). They then go out and create a new life with a new name. Keeps them sane.
When you run into a noble who's been a noble for more than 10 centuries without undergoing the rites, you've run into an Elder. An Elder is the closest thing to a demigod you can find that's still mortal. An Elder has usually mastered several classes (level 20 in at least 2), and has dabbled in several others. You just don't fight an Elder on equal footing. You bring an army, and a demigod or two if you can. Most Elder's retire from the mortal world, lest they disrupt the balance. They usually reside on the planes.
A Noble can usually live about 10,000 years (10 times normal) baring something bad happening. But they don't physically deteriorate, they just eventually shut down. Lot of speculation they may just get bored and die.
mendedwall12 wrote: Let alone the gestation periods, and childhood of non-humans. I don't think in any rulebook or supplement I've ever read, that gestational time-periods have ever been addressed. If somebody knows of a book that discusses the gestation of the various races, I'd love to see it. Book of Erotic Fantasy
That looks like a great take on it mdt. I'm going to think about some adjustments to my games in the future as well. Right now though I'm locked into the Golarion setting.
This whole thing got me looking more closely at the aging effects which can be found here.
I take serious offense at the human Middle Age modifiers. I'm 37 myself, and work out pretty regularly (which in my estimation is closely akin to an adventurer using their muscles routinely) and I'm stronger now than I was in my twenties. Does this translate into game mechanics?
What if the story revolves around a village that gets ransacked and plundered by orcs, and the men of the village go out to get back what's theirs? Conceivably you could have a 35 year old human character that begins their adventuring career then. Do you assume that when they roll their stats it includes the age effects already? Or do you roll the stats and then adjust for age afterward?
What if a human starts at age 34, and over the course of their adventures pass into "Middle Age?" Do you then drop their STR, DEX, and CON, and raise their INT, WIS, and CHA? Does this in any way have an effect on their ability bonuses that come with certain levels?
This is all hypothetical of course, but things like this could conceivably come up in any game, not even necessarily a homebrew. d20pfsrd.com-Aging--emphasis mine wrote: You can choose or randomly generate your character's age. If you choose it, it must be at least the minimum age for the character's race and class. There is nothing in the rules that says you can't choose to start your character at an older age. I'm guessing if you are an optimizer you wouldn't though, just because of the aging effects. Unless of course you were optimizing a caster class, and then you might like that +1 to the lower three stats.
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MendedWall12 wrote:
Let alone the gestation periods, and childhood of non-humans. I don't think in any rulebook or supplement I've ever read, that gestational time-periods have ever been addressed. If somebody knows of a book that discusses the gestation of the various races, I'd love to see it. EoG says that Quote: Births are rare among elvenkind, so much so that the successful birthing of a newborn is an event for the whole community. Celebrations often last for weeks as community members give their blessing and items to assist in the child’s care and development. Oracles and divinations are consulted daily throughout pregnancy, and the information gained goes into the child’s naming and upbringing for the first century or so. This would make it seem as though the gestational period itself is much longer than normal. It also hints at the fact that an elven child is still being "brought up" for at least the first century. Yet the race stats in the rulebook says 110 is adulthood. Of course, with humans, depending on the nation, 18 years old is considered adulthood. I look back at myself at age 18 and at the 18 year olds in my classroom and think how young I was/they are. "They're just kids," I think to myself.
With half-elves being possible from mothers of either race, I think the only sensible view is that elven gestation is very similar to human, otherwise half-elves would create a significant problem for one, the other, or both moms.
I also wonder, if you're advocating a significantly longer gestational period, if you are married with children.... ;)
As much as I love the lore of the Silmarillion, I don't think immortal, departing elves work very well for a D&D type game. It's too far beyond human comprehension to model what a nation of beings w/ 1000 year life spans would be like, IMO. Middle Earth is strangely devoid of progress, mainly because Prof. Tolkien didn't much care for it, I guess.
But that doesn't necessarily make sense in the D&D/PF rules framework. With 1000 years to work on it, 20th level wizards should be dime-a-dozen in elvish communities, with all kinds of crazy custom spells and magic items just dripping off them. Elven nations battling nearby Orcs becomes absurd in a medium or high magic setting. It's the caster vs martial debate writ large. Look out, the orcs have a cadre of 5th level Barbarians!! Oh, they just ate 15 meteor swarms from flying, greater invisible, non-detection, protection from arrows mages, with a gated-in Planetar to clean up. Next. Orcs would need Gruumsh himself to show up to even have much of a chance.
It's also very hard, IMO, to reasonably conceive of how to role-play a 200+ year old character. The scope of experiences and observed history is far outside our comprehension.
2e tried to introduce Eldar-Elves, and it was a mistake, corrected in 3e. I'm gathering that Elves of Golarion tried to do so again, but the CRB reined that back in.
Chobemaster wrote: MendedWall12 wrote:
This would make it seem as though the gestational period itself is much longer than normal. It also hints at the fact that an elven child is still being "brought up" for at least the first century. Yet the race stats in the rulebook says 110 is adulthood. Of course, with humans, depending on the nation, 18 years old is considered adulthood. I look back at myself at age 18 and at the 18 year olds in my classroom and think how young I was/they are. "They're just kids," I think to myself.
With half-elves being possible from mothers of either race, I think the only sensible view is that elven gestation is very similar to human, otherwise half-elves would create a significant problem for one, the other, or both moms.
I also wonder, if you're advocating a significantly longer gestational period, if you are married with children.... ;) I wouldn't worry too much about that kind of thing: The two species are obviously distinct and yet can interbreed, humans can also interbreed with orcs, but elves can't (or maybe just don't, I suppose). It's a fantasy world. It's magic. Really the only sensible view is that none of them can interbreed, so why try to be sensible.
Maybe half-elves gestate at the proper rate for the mother, then, once born, grow up at half-elf rates. Maybe the genetics of the child produce hormones that influence the mother's normal pregnancy to last the appropriate time for the child. You can hand-wave it however you want.
For your last point, I'm not married with kids, but I have friends who are. I'm not advocating long gestations (or childhoods) because I think pregnancy is wonderful and want it to last or because I want to torture elven women with years of bloating. Elves aren't human. If they have long pregnancies, that's normal for them. Maybe they carry differently and aren't much inconvenienced until the last months.
Coridan wrote: mendedwall12 wrote: Let alone the gestation periods, and childhood of non-humans. I don't think in any rulebook or supplement I've ever read, that gestational time-periods have ever been addressed. If somebody knows of a book that discusses the gestation of the various races, I'd love to see it. Book of Erotic Fantasy This book says that the gestation of an elf is 24 months. As Chobemaster points out, that creates some ridiculousness for a half-elf. Either the elf carrying the half-human child is going to have a much shorter gestation, or the human woman carrying the half-elf child is going to be pregnant for much longer. Math-wise it would seem a half-elf gestates for about 16-17 months. Of course the rate of growth during that period would be slower than a human mother was used to, and faster than an elven mother was used to.
As you point out thejeff, fantasy world, magic abounds, perhaps the baby adapts to the gestation of the mother. Interesting to think about either way.
Also, Chobemaster, I am indeed married with three school-age children. :P
MendedWall12 wrote: I take serious offense at the human Middle Age modifiers. I'm 37 myself, and work out pretty regularly (which in my estimation is closely akin to an adventurer using their muscles routinely) and I'm stronger now than I was in my twenties. Does this translate into game mechanics?
What if the story revolves around a village that gets ransacked and plundered by orcs, and the men of the village go out to get back what's theirs? Conceivably you could have a 35 year old human character that begins their adventuring career then. Do you assume that when they roll their stats it includes the age effects already? Or do you roll the stats and then adjust for age afterward?
What if a human starts at age 34, and over the course of their adventures pass into "Middle Age?" Do you then drop their STR, DEX, and CON, and raise their INT, WIS, and CHA? Does this in any way have an effect on their ability bonuses that come with certain levels?
So you've been working out more than you did in your 20s, I suspect. I know I'm stronger now, at 43, than I was back then, for similar reasons. I also know I'm not as quick or flexible and it takes longer to recover from muscle injuries and the like. The first could be trained, I'm not so sure about the second. Many's the time I've wished I took up rock-climbing at 16 not 35. Real people are probably less static than the rules reflect.
I'd say an adventurer (at least those relying on physical abilities) would be more akin to a professional athlete than to working out pretty regularly. There aren't a lot of professional sports where players peak after 35 and they tend to be the less physically demanding ones.
As far as rules go, yes that's exactly what you do. Determine stats normally, then apply age modifiers. Level bonuses are applied normally. A human character who started at 34 with a 16 str, put the level 4 bonus to str, reached 35, then also put the level 8 bonus to str would end up with a 17 (16+1-1+1).
Obviously, rule 0 applies. If you wanted to run a older people campaign and not penalize melee and boost casters, you could simply rule the starting stats already reflect the age modifiers.
Good point about the professional athlete versus the regular exercise partaker. Though I consider myself to be in tip-top shape, I do not, in any way compare to a professional athlete as far as conditioning is concerned. As for the recovery time, I suppose that that is what the rules are trying to reflect: as the body ages it does take longer to recover.
Actually, I worked out as routinely in my twenties as I do now, then gave up for a bit as marriage and family took precedence on my time. Now that my children are school-age time is more available. It only took me a year of regular weight-lifting to surpass where I had been when I stopped working out. Perhaps my weight routines are smarter and more targeted than they were back then. That would be reflected by the increase to INT and WIS... ;)
MendedWall12 wrote: But isn't that fluff that was created as a setting supplement to the 3.5 rules? In which case it's fluff based on mechanics. I think the key here is perhaps a separation between Player Character elves, and Non Player Character Elves.
As Chobemaster and proftobe point out, there are universal fantasy tropes and also mechanical ideas that could easily account for the longevity.
If, in fact, elves that choose to adventure with the short-lived races "catch" mortality, or separate themselves from whatever age-slowing things (foods, drinks, meditations, philosophies, etc.) they'd normally be around, the mechanics and fluff could actually be very much in line.
Jumping back to this, which I'd wanted to address earlier but didn't have time when I read it and then got distracted by later posts
It's an interesting idea, with some neat role-playing potential.
Especially since it doesn't seem reversible: If you are a PC elf, these are the aging rules you use. Not, you age twice as fast while you're adventuring, but if you retire back to the elflands, you get to ignore the max age limits.
If you apply that to not just PCs, but to anyone who interacts too much with "mortal" races or lives outside the elven lands, then doing either becomes a much crazier or more heroic choice. You're not just risking the normal perils of adventuring or living in the dangerous human lands, you're guaranteeing an early death. By hundreds of years. Maybe half your potential lifespan. More if you go with a literal reading of the EoG fluff that suggests elves don't naturally die of age.
Maybe that's why, assuming elves do mature at something closer to human rates, they're considered adult until they're 110+. The elders don't want them to throw half their lives away until they've had a decent time to consider it.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
I'm going to fix this by not having half-elves in my homebrew setting. ;)
thejeff wrote:
It's an interesting idea, with some neat role-playing potential.
Especially since it doesn't seem reversible: If you are a PC elf, these are the aging rules you use. Not, you age twice as fast while you're adventuring, but if you retire back to the elflands, you get to ignore the max age limits.
If you apply that to not just PCs, but to anyone who interacts too much with "mortal" races or lives outside the elven lands, then doing either becomes a much crazier or more heroic choice. You're not just risking the normal perils of adventuring or living in the dangerous human lands, you're guaranteeing an early death. By hundreds of years. Maybe half your potential lifespan. More if you go with a literal reading of the EoG fluff that suggests elves don't naturally die of age.
I don't really see anything that says it's NOT reversible, either. A campaign that actually spans hundreds of years with the same characters is so outside the norm that I'd argue the rules haven't really considered it. The rules mechanic IMO isn't for a PC advancing through those ages, it's what to do with a character WITH those ages, and relevantly, characters interacting w/ the rest of the world. No need to stat up elves that never meet anyone or do anything.
Irrespective of reversibility, though, I think you have to apply it the same to PCs and NPCs. IMO, a first principle of the game (as opposed to 4e for example) is that the rules are describing the reality of the gameworld. Reality doesn't know if a character is a PC or not.
That's very true Chobemaster. Irrespective of NPC or PC those rules do apply. The not statting up elves that never interact with anyone is a good point too. Perhaps the fluff of EoG really is just for the fantasy environment of the game, and shouldn't be put into the mechanics at all. Maybe it's just to add a bit of that elven mysticism to the feel of the game.
Chobemaster wrote: But that doesn't necessarily make sense in the D&D/PF rules framework. With 1000 years to work on it, 20th level wizards should be dime-a-dozen in elvish communities, with all kinds of crazy custom spells and magic items just dripping off them. Elven nations battling nearby Orcs becomes absurd in a medium or high magic setting. It's the caster vs martial debate writ large. Look out, the orcs have a cadre of 5th level Barbarians!! Oh, they just ate 15 meteor swarms from flying, greater invisible, non-detection, protection from arrows mages, with a gated-in Planetar to clean up. Next. Orcs would need Gruumsh himself to show up to even have much of a chance. I'm not sure how much difference the lifespan makes within the rules. If you take PCs experiences as the norm, it's easy to hit 20th level in just a few years of game time. (Assuming you can keep the real-world campaign running long enough.) There could be plenty of 20th level orcs as well. They like to fight more and are thus more likely to gain levels. Under the rules, reaching high levels is more about survival rates than about length of time.
If you're going to ignore the PC/adventuring style experience gain and assume normal people gain levels just through training and practice, then you're also free to make up rules about different common racial level gain, etc.
Chobemaster wrote: It's also very hard, IMO, to reasonably conceive of how to role-play a 200+ year old character. The scope of experiences and observed history is far outside our comprehension. It's also difficult to role-play a gnome or a dwarf, both of which have very different base personality traits than humans. I don't see how 200+ years of age is much more different. Even beyond the other personality traits of elves, just growing up expecting to live for 100s of years would shape you very differently than us. Elves aren't humans, even when they're young. 200+ year old elves aren't 200+ year old humans and, IMO, it's the elf part that makes them different, not the 200+ years part. It adds, but it isn't the main difference.
thejeff wrote:
I'm not sure how much difference the lifespan makes within the rules. If you take PCs experiences as the norm, it's easy to hit 20th level in just a few years of game time. (Assuming you can keep the real-world campaign running long enough.) There could be plenty of 20th level orcs as well. They like to fight more and are thus more likely to gain levels. Under the rules, reaching high levels is more about survival rates than about length of time.
If you're going to ignore the PC/adventuring style experience gain and assume normal people gain levels just through training and practice, then you're also free to make up rules about different common racial level gain, etc.
It's also difficult to role-play a gnome or a dwarf, both of which have very different base personality traits than humans. I don't see how 200+ years of age is much more different. Even beyond the other personality traits of elves, just growing up expecting to live for 100s of years would shape you very differently than us. Elves aren't humans, even when they're young. 200+ year old elves aren't 200+ year old humans and, IMO, it's the elf part that...
Obviously the PC experience isn't the norm or everyone over the age of 30 would be 20th level. I also disagree w/ the flat assumption that liking to fight more=more likely to gain levels. That presupposes consistent survival over a long period, which should NOT apply carte blanche to non-elite-stat NPCs.
Certainly agree RPing different races can be hard, and it quite often lapses into stereotypes for that reason. Why make it EVEN HARDER by also dealing with 100+ year starting ages? The ability to live to be 1000 or "only" 300 is of no practical consequence to 99.999999999999% of PCs.
TriOmegaZero wrote: I'm going to fix this by not having half-elves in my homebrew setting. ;) That's pretty solid, IMO. They are an obvious artifact of the Tolkien-based concepts of the original game, so if you're diverting from that (and the rules have continued to leave that feel in the dust, though they started to do so almost immediately), then they are probably a question-raising anomaly as much as anything else.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Yeah, I never read Tolkien, so my setting will probably not be that similar. I am going with ageless elves and dwarves however.
Chobemaster wrote: thejeff wrote:
It's an interesting idea, with some neat role-playing potential.
Especially since it doesn't seem reversible: If you are a PC elf, these are the aging rules you use. Not, you age twice as fast while you're adventuring, but if you retire back to the elflands, you get to ignore the max age limits.
If you apply that to not just PCs, but to anyone who interacts too much with "mortal" races or lives outside the elven lands, then doing either becomes a much crazier or more heroic choice. You're not just risking the normal perils of adventuring or living in the dangerous human lands, you're guaranteeing an early death. By hundreds of years. Maybe half your potential lifespan. More if you go with a literal reading of the EoG fluff that suggests elves don't naturally die of age.
I don't really see anything that says it's NOT reversible, either. A campaign that actually spans hundreds of years with the same characters is so outside the norm that I'd argue the rules haven't really considered it. The rules mechanic IMO isn't for a PC advancing through those ages, it's what to do with a character WITH those ages, and relevantly, characters interacting w/ the rest of the world. No need to stat up elves that never meet anyone or do anything.
Irrespective of reversibility, though, I think you have to apply it the same to PCs and NPCs. IMO, a first principle of the game (as opposed to 4e for example) is that the rules are describing the reality of the gameworld. Reality doesn't know if a character is a PC or not. Right, which is why I suggested adventurers or those living outside the elven lands.
You might need to stat up elves who haven't left the elf lands if PCs go there. Do all the elves they meet suddenly become subject to the Core aging rules when they meet outsiders? Resulting in all the old elves being carefully segregated from visitors, lest they suddenly drop dead of old age.
If it is reversible and campaigns that span hundreds of years weren't considered, then what's the point of having those aging rules. No one will ever be affected by them. Just say PC elves can't start older than X years. PCs will never last long enough, NPCs can be assumed to have gone home at some point.
I think you don't just have to apply the same rules to PCs and NPCs but there has to be a game-world reason for it. Like the suggested ideas of interacting with short-lived races or being away from some beneficial effect of the elf lands.
But then it wouldn't necessarily apply to even new PCs, unless they're required to have lived outside the elf lands since their youth. Under this scheme, elves live for easily more than a thousand years, unless they leave home and/or interact with short-lived races, if I decide my character is 500 years old and going out into the world for the first time, what age category is he? Adult, because he's just come out and started to age by the Core rules. Venerable and possibly dead of old age, even though he would have lived centuries more if he'd stayed home?
Or just forbidden by GM fiat? In which case, why have the aging rules at all?
TriOmegaZero wrote: Yeah, I never read Tolkien, so my setting will probably not be that similar. I am going with ageless elves and dwarves however. Speaking purely from my perspective as a teacher of literature, (we explore the Fellowship in one of my elective classes) I find that to be nigh on to blasphemous. :P
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Luckily, Brian Jacques took up the slack in my formative years, so I have Redwall as a basis for what I think fantasy should be. ;)
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