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Greetings,
The following scenario occurs to me after perusing another thread about astral projection:
- Obtain a ring of three wishes.
- Cast astral projection. You are now in an astral body with astral copies of all of your equipment.
- Use up your ring of three wishes however you like.
- End astral projection. You are back in your original body with your ring of three wishes intact.
- GOTO 2.
Is there anything in RAW that prevents this from working?
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Greetings,
The following scenario occurs to me after perusing another thread about astral projection:
- Obtain a ring of three wishes.
- Cast astral projection. You are now in an astral body with astral copies of all of your equipment.
- Use up your ring of three wishes however you like.
- End astral projection. You are back in your original body with your ring of three wishes intact.
- GOTO 2.
Is there anything in RAW that prevents this from working?
None save that your premises are wrong.
The Astral is not just an image it's a projection of the true form. You expend spells they're still expended when you come back.
It's no different from the ring, you use the charges, they're gone. It's not like astral projection created a separate set of charges it's still drawn from the same resource.
So no, yet another scheme to get unlimited free wishes gets shot down in flames.
I see nothing in RAW to indicate that the duplicate items are drawn from the same resource. Is there some sort of support for this?
Note: I am not advocating that this procedure should actually work. In fact, as the GM for our group, I'm looking for support for nixing this for a reason other than "because I said so, that's why". I'm willing to do that (per Rule 0), but it's a lot less contentious with developer backing. Plus, an answer to this would help resolve similar issues such as:
- "If someone sunders and destroys your astral body's magic axe, does your real magic axe suddenly shatter?" (I would think "no", but it might have ramifications for consumable items per the original problem.)
- "If your astral body is afflicted with, e.g., malaria when the astral projection ends, does this leave your real body with malaria?". (Again, I would think no. Otherwise, it makes little sense that death wouldn't transfer as well.)
- "If your astral body picks up new gear, does it vanish when the spell ends? If so, does that gear end up in your real body's inventory?" (Probably not.)
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Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane; a physical body must be materialized on other planes.
So, even ruling favourably to the whole shenanigan, the wishes would affect only creatures on the astral plane and as long as they are on the astral plane. No "I wish for an increase in constitution" three times and my original body get an inherent constitution bonus of +3.
Same thing when he materialize on another plane. That body get an inherent +3 to constitution and that ring use up 3 charges. Nothing change for the original body.
There are still plenty of ticks that can be done but this should damp some of the worst things that can be done.
I was going to start a thread about cloning magic items (at least temporarily), but the search function turned up this little gem. I guess I will just bump this one.
What exactly is there (besides GM fiat) to prevent a subject of astral projection getting infinite charges from his items, or using scrolls and potions to effect the reality around his projection without actually using up said items?
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I was going to start a thread about cloning magic items (at least temporarily), but the search function turned up this little gem. I guess I will just bump this one.
What exactly is there (besides GM fiat) to prevent a subject of astral projection getting infinite charges from his items, or using scrolls and potions to effect the reality around his projection without actually using up said items?
Common sense and a bunch of functional brain cells?
Common sense and a bunch of functional brain cells?I was going to start a thread about cloning magic items (at least temporarily), but the search function turned up this little gem. I guess I will just bump this one.
What exactly is there (besides GM fiat) to prevent a subject of astral projection getting infinite charges from his items, or using scrolls and potions to effect the reality around his projection without actually using up said items?
Sorry, but I don't buy that. It's little more than a cheap shot rather than a valid argument for or against. Common sense simply doesn't exist where 9th-level spells are concerned. They are meant to break the very fabric of reality. And they're hardly common. Kinda hard for anyone to develop common sense on something so uncommon.
Here's a similar fun question: What happens if my astral form gives an item (magical or mundane) to another person for use? The spell makes it clear that it vanishes when the spell ends, but is it even possible to hand out the item(s) in the first place?
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Actually, common sense is very easy here.
"Is this thing allowing something broken?"
If YES, THEN:
No, it doesn't work in my game. Why? Because I said so. No, I don't care about your RAW, you can shout all day. If you'll shout too much I'll just quit gaming with you.
Of course, this works both ways.
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And...that does nothing to answer my original question: What exactly is there (besides GM fiat*) to prevent a subject of astral projection getting infinite charges from his items, or using scrolls and potions to effect the reality around his projection without actually using up said items?
* I suppose I should say differing playstyles. Less volatile sounding.
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"It doesn't work in my game"
What doesn't work, precisely?
Astral projection describes how it works. If you say that applying game mechanics to a certain situation "doesn't work", or "doesn't work like that", you need to say just how it does work.
Or, in other words:
Player: I do X.
DM: That doesn't work.
Player: You mean it doesn't result in the outcome I want? Fair enough. So then what does happen when I try to do this?
You've got to have an answer, or else your game world dissolves into nonsense. All verisimilitude, all sense that your characters are inhabiting a self-consistent universe, goes out the window.
ETA: And your answer ought to be consistent across different situations, or else, once again, nonsense ensues. Some people are OK with that, of course, as long as the game is balanced. Simulationist vs. gamist sensibilities, I suppose?
RD: I can't find anything in the spell description that would stop the players, other than the material cost of the spell adding up.
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The sell say that there is a ling between your body, its equipment and your new body and equipment. Then it say that there is a traumatic effect when your projection is killed, so you get 2 negative effects.
While not explicitly stated in the spell I would use those two starting point (and the need for game balance) to say that when you use one of your items charges there is a resonance that deplete the same charge on the original item. Similarly, if your sword is sundered, while the original sword physical form is undamaged, its magic field is damaged and it lose its magical properties until repaired.
RAW? No. RAW is silent.
RAI? yes. The rules say that when you use a magic item charge it is expended. in those rules there is no exception for astral projections of items. Same thing for breaking items. if there is no stated exception you should use the general rule.
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To me it looks like a valid loophole.
It works for the characters, it works agaisnt the characters.
Good points Makhno and Diego Rossi.
Diego, does the astral projection spell not qualify as a "stated exception" to the general rule of charged items depleting their charges?
To me it looks like a valid loophole.
It works for the characters, it works agaisnt the characters.
BBEG with infinite wishes. Think about it.
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To me it looks like a valid loophole.
It works for the characters, it works agaisnt the characters.
Therein lies the rub. This is nothing more than finding a loophole to try to exploit the system. No amount of rules will ever contain every single possible outcome. Yes, the OP has found something the rules don't cover.
... But, as I said before, the rules don't cover going to the bathroom either.
By RAW, no. (about as raw as your head will be after the DM is done smacking it with the CRB for trying this, btw).
But RAI I think the intent is clear that it shouldn't work. They made sure to write out that all the extra gear disappears. This shows the intent that they were trying to close the loophole about gear doubling. That they didn't go in and also write that charges are gone is probably something they felt they didn't have to write.
By RAW yes.
By RAI no.
By common sense and simple game balance, no.
-S
To me it looks like a valid loophole.
It works for the characters, it works agaisnt the characters.
Therein lies the rub. This is nothing more than finding a loophole to try to exploit the system. No amount of rules will ever contain every single possible outcome. Yes, the OP has found something the rules don't cover.
... But, as I said before, the rules don't cover going to the bathroom either.
Roll a ranged touch attack (aiming)
To me it looks like a valid loophole.
It works for the characters, it works agaisnt the characters.
Therein lies the rub. This is nothing more than finding a loophole to try to exploit the system. No amount of rules will ever contain every single possible outcome. Yes, the OP has found something the rules don't cover.
... But, as I said before, the rules don't cover going to the bathroom either.
Except that we all know perfectly well (I should hope!) just what is involved in going to the bathroom in real life. Unless stated otherwise, we may assume that such basic aspects of life and reality work just the same way in D&D. (To use a famous example, the rules do not, strictly speaking, say that dead characters can't take actions.)
So tell me, how does astral projection work in real life? What happens, in reality, if I astrally project while wearing my magic wishing ring? What real-world knowledge can I apply to resolve this oversight in the rules?
By the way, I think that Diego Rossi's approach is more or less the way to go here. It seems like the most sensible and painless way to "patch" the "exploit" without nonsensical consequences.
To me it looks like a valid loophole.
It works for the characters, it works agaisnt the characters.
Therein lies the rub. This is nothing more than finding a loophole to try to exploit the system. No amount of rules will ever contain every single possible outcome. Yes, the OP has found something the rules don't cover.
... But, as I said before, the rules don't cover going to the bathroom either.Except that we all know perfectly well (I should hope!) just what is involved in going to the bathroom in real life. Unless stated otherwise, we may assume that such basic aspects of life and reality work just the same way in D&D. (To use a famous example, the rules do not, strictly speaking, say that dead characters can't take actions.)
So tell me, how does astral projection work in real life? What happens, in reality, if I astrally project while wearing my magic wishing ring? What real-world knowledge can I apply to resolve this oversight in the rules?
You apply the real life knowledge of gaming rules that tells you when you see something clearly exploitative.
The intent and use of this spell is not intended to allow you to go and burn charges for free. If it was, that would be spelled out in the spell- and it would be named something quite different. This is a spell that allows you to travel astrally. Using it to break some other rule because they decided not to devote word count on it, is just looking to find a loop hole and exploit.
Real world says: if its too good to be true, then it is.
I don't need real world knowledge of astral projection to know this is just a loophole and exploit.
-S
It doesn't say that your copy items have any magical properties, so the astral ring is only pretty trinket.
It dosent say charges are copied just objects.
Still hoping to find an answer to this one. To that end, I hit FAQ on blahpers' second post above. I encourage others to do so as well.
Perhaps we can close this loophole.
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Still hoping to find an answer to this one. To that end, I hit FAQ on blahpers' second post above. I encourage others to do so as well.
Perhaps we can close this loophole.
FAQ the first post as it contains the question.
And yes, this is a common trick in 3.5 but the loophole should be closed in PF. Astral copies of consumables should drain the originals, and that's how I would rule it.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Still hoping to find an answer to this one.
They can't answer all FAQ's and they can't close all loopholes in the core book without it being 1500 pages.
I just wish people would stop looking for and championing the strange things like this that the DM will make a reasonable ruling (to reject or accept) and move on.
There is no rule on how to handle this, so there is no hard RAW to hang a hat.
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Oh hey, I'd forgotten about this thread.
Regarding the BBEG having infinite wishes: Wasn't that the plot point near the end of one of the adventure paths?
Regarding the validity of the question: The ring example is extreme, but the principle might apply to other situations that aren't as patently absurd.
Regarding my own situation: I liked the "astral wishes only affected astral characters", and clever wishes outside the normal bound is wish, as usual, gives the GM free reign to be clever in limiting the effect. In any case, it hasn't come up yet.
"Long ago there lived a cleric named Cheezo the Technically Legal. Every day he wore two wishing rings and transported himself into the astral, and wished for everything he ever wanted. Eventually, tiring of the damage he was doing to reality, a band of pleromas and lhaksaruts travelled to his supposedly secure location, undid the spells that surrounded his comatose body, removed the rings, and took him away... and he was never seen again. Learn well from this, young apprentice."
Does Golarion have a god of bureaucrats?
i can see the necessity of clarifying this.
Any character would have different tactics depending on what happens.
I dont see it as being mean to the DM, just trying to have an understanding of planar travel.
Regarding the BBEG having infinite wishes: Wasn't that the plot point near the end of one of the adventure paths?
The BBEG was a noble efreet. He could grant 3 wishes per day to other people. And Legacy of Fire was back in the 3.5e days, so it was played as 3 wishes per day per person instead of 3 wishes per day, period. He could force other people to make wishes for him. It went like "You get 3 wishes, make 2 of them how I tell you and I let you have 1 to yourself."
Besides Asmodeus? ;)
Bah, of course. Tells you how much I've been playing in Golarion lately.
They can't answer all FAQ's and they can't close all loopholes in the core book without it being 1500 pages.
No, but they sure can get a whole hell of a lot of them if we help--and we don't need 1,500 new pages in the book when we can have an easily searchable FAQ of theoretically infinite length.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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searchable FAQ of theoretically infinite length
We would like a 10,000 answer FAQ, but I don't think the average Joe would nor do I think Paizo wants FAQ to become that. They also don't like FAQ for obvious questions with obvious answers but also with strange rules interpretation answers. They have consistently complained about these type of FAQ requests.