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Are you serious?
So first of all, you can only put in a number of ranks into each skill equal to your level. At levle 1 you can only put one rank into stealth.
That said, what race is he and what are his modified and unmodified stats? Did he take any feats to add to his ac? Unless you are allowing non-core races I dont see how he has a +6 from dex to ac at level 1.
You can get 21 at level one too. Chain Shirt + 18 Dex + Heavy Shield + Dodge = 21
22 if you're Small.
More info plz.
We can't make a judgment call with so little information.
So first of all, you can only put in a number of ranks into each skill equal to your level. At levle 1 you can only put one rank into stealth.
That said, what race is he and what are his modified and unmodified stats? Did he take any feats to add to his ac? Unless you are allowing non-core races I dont see how he has a +6 from dex to ac at level 1.
Here is my guess as to the rogue build.
20 dex, +5 modifier. 1 skill point, +5 dex, +3 class skill, +4 size(halfling) = 13 could add skill focus to get to 16 and stealthy feat to get 18AC = 2 armor, 5 dex, 1 size + 10 = 18. Could add a buckler for a 19 AC.
No, this is not over powered, pretty typical halfling rogue build. I really don't see the problem.
-Kolokotroni
I assume he's small-sized, so he could have +5 dex, +1 size, +2 armor. Alternatively he could have taken the Dodge feat, it's really not hard to get 18 at level 1.
Certainly, but since the op said his stats were 'insanely high' i am just wondering if some mistakes were made in character creation, or a bestiary race was used or something. Either way I dont know how a rogue could be overpowered in any situation, let alone at level 1.
(13 if you only allow 1 rank per level).
Just want to call this out and reiterate what Kolokotroni said so this does not get lost in the shuffle:
You can ONLY have 1 rank per level/hit die. Ever. Unless you're using a weird house rule.
Generally speaking I'd review the character creation rules and everyone's character sheets to make sure everything is made to spec.
If stuff looks weird, download a character generator. There's some good free ones, like PC Gen and sCoreForge if it's up to date. HeroLab has a free demo mode too. Enter the rolled stats and otherwise build the character as the generator program allows you--should help show if there's anything done illegally very easily.
18 AC is very possible, as is a rogue shining at level 1.
A halfling rogue SHOULD be way better then everyone else at stealth, and skills in general. That is what rogues are good at. Obviously he should operate within the rules but you shouldnt worry about some classes being better then others at certain things. That is how the game works.
Well, that wont last, ACs tend to be respectively higher at first level. If you had a heavy armor sheild fighter in the party those goblins would have had just as much trouble hitting him. That much will even out in a level or two at most.
One of the issues with rolling stats is potential disparity. He did in fact roll very well with 3 16s and no stat under 10. If you want a more even approach I recommend using point buy instead so there isn't such a disparity between players at low levels.
Also, maybe i'm used to 3.0, or minimalist games, but I've never played a campaign that any character at level 1 never fails their rolls, or never gets hit.
I wish that "18 AC" meant "never gets hit" at level 1...
You will see the rest of the characters catch up and surpass the rogue in AC - rogue AC generally is going to fall behind all full-bab classes (fighter, barbarian, ranger, paladin, cavalier, samurai), and all healer classes based solely on armor and shield bonus from equipment, when they can afford it. Rogue AC will fall behind full-caster classes almost as quickly due to spells.
You may be shocked by how good his AC is at 1st level, but by 3rd or 4th you are going to post here saying "Why does the rogue player in my campaign get hit so much? What am I doing wrong?"
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As a rogue, trust me we do not get overpowered.
Yes, yes, at level 7 I can bluff with bonuses ranging from +18 to +26, thus making the world my personal idiot to dupe and manipulate and feint and distract. I may SEEM overpowered in limited situations, but in general the party is actually quite balanced. Don't focus on one or two numbers, look at the whole character, strengths and weaknesses together.
Your player's day can easily be ruined with a single casting of Color Spray, for example.
As a little advice I would really read up on stealth mechanics. I would also let this little halfing's steath skill shine(well be used to great effect anyways).
Started running a pathfinder game with 5 players. Everyone seemed to roll out average stats, including the Rogue. But through proper planning, he's now got some insanely high stats due to his racial modifiers.
His Armor class with basic leather is 18, at level 1. His total skill modifier for stealth at level 1, is 14(13 if you only allow 1 rank per level).
Did i just do something wrong, or is he just adept at breaking games?
Welcome to Pathfinder. It seems like you have a player that is good a min/maxing his character. Those numbers aren't out of line with what a lot of players who optimize can achieve. Are they game breaking? Not in the least.
For example, his AC while high, is unbeatable, heck even a Orc Warrior will hit him almost 1/3 of the time and could likely knock him down with a single hit.
A high stealth modifier will allow perhaps one sneak attack an encounter. With only +1d6 that is hardly game breaking either.
If you follow the rules, you should be fine. If he starts to beat encounters too easily just make them harder. The only thing to watch for is that with his optimization he doesn't start to outshine other players to the point they aren't having fun.
Please tell me the opening post is an early april fool's day joke.
Rise of the Runelords is designed for D&D 3.5, which Pathfinder is based on. Changes were made along the way, though, so there will be inconsistencies. It's certainly not that hard to convert it, but if you're new to the system, it'll be much easier to not have that added layer of complexity.
I'd recommend picking up a newer adventure path to start, although I don't know what would be a good suggestion.
Like I got my hands on the Runelords adventure path, and its pregen characters clearly have skills like listen, spot, etc. But my Pathfinder book(5th run i think?) has them combined to perception.
Rise of the Runelords was created before the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game was released. RotRL is made for the d20 OGL (D&D 3.5) system. You'll need to do a fair amount of conversion to use it with PFRPG. (Check d20pfsrd.com for conversion of almost all the critters) Alternately, there's a huge PFRPG (hardcover?) version coming out soon, so you may want to just wait a bit before diving into the AP.
As I said, I also couldn't find anything for max ranks allowed, and now that I think about it, I couldn't find starting feats, or when they get more(maybe I overlooked it) I only found mention of their advancement based on your class in chapter 1.
Generating a Character "Step 4—Pick Skills and Select Feats: Determine the number of skill ranks possessed by your character, based on his class and Intelligence modifier (and any other bonuses, such as the bonus received by humans). Then spend these ranks on skills, but remember that you cannot have more ranks than your level in any one skill (for a starting character, this is usually one). After skills, determine how many feats your character receives, based on his class and level, and select them from those presented in Feats."
You can see when you get more feats and ability scores on Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses under Advancing Your Character.
I want to say thanks, for the expedient help and advice. Like I said, new to pathfinder, and I'm coming up with some incositencies with the book material. Like I got my hands on the Runelords adventure path, and its pregen characters clearly have skills like listen, spot, etc. But my Pathfinder book(5th run i think?) has them combined to perception.
I see, ok, so first of all, rise of the runelords (for now) was written for 3.5 dnd. It has not yet been officially converted to Pathfinder RPG. That is where that confusion comes from. So you will need to keep an eye on things like that if you want to run rise of the runelords for the time being. The good news is you can if you want get the update version for pathfinder rules in july in hard cover form Which I am sure will make lots of dms lives easier.
As I said, I also couldn't find anything for max ranks allowed, and now that I think about it, I couldn't find starting feats, or when they get more(maybe I overlooked it) I only found mention of their advancement based on your class in chapter 1.
You get 1 feat at 1st level (humans get a second feat). Then you get an additional feat every odd level, 3rd, 5th,7th etc. Some classes, such as the fighter, give bonus feats. You can see that in the table Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses here. Which also appears at the start of the classes chapter in the core book.
Also at the start of the skills chapter it says:
"Acquiring Skills
Each level, your character gains a number of skill ranks dependent upon your class plus your Intelligence modifier. Investing a rank in a skill represents a measure of training in that skill. You can never have more ranks in a skill than your total number of Hit Dice. In addition..."
You can find that text here and at the beggining of the skills chapter of the book.
And yes, now that I think about it, fighting CR 1/3 - 1 encounters at this level, with minimalist gear, the rogue will shine. I wasn't thinking about all the other variables. It was a new group, first session, and some people were getting butthurt. As a DM they should be butthurt against me, not the other players.But seriously, thanks again you guys.
Not a problem. This is a complex game, and there are lot of things to explore and learn. Welcome to pathfinder. Happy gaming and have fun!
He was of the mindset of "Meh, I got this s#*!." and walked into a group of five goblins and didn't get touched. I think he failed one attack roll last night, and that was chance, it was a natural 1.
Sounds like he got lucky and will eventually get his comeuppance. Those goblins should hit about 20% of the time. So on average he should have been hit once a round, more if the goblins were flanking. On average he should only have hit about half the time. So, the odds of him repeating this feat are near zero.
probably a good idea as a starting dm, you want to keep things as simple as possible. There are lots of great adventures and adventure paths to choose from, just make sure they have the PFRPG tag instead of the OGL tag (here in the paizo store). You may also want to consider just getting a few modules for now. These are shorter self contained adventures that are meant to span only a couple of sessions. That way you can allow you and your group to get used to playing the game before diving into a heavier and longer running Adventure paths.
Remember, you can’t attack from Stealth- he’s not going to be able to use that skill and get Sneak attack, unless it’s on a surprise round (and sure he certainly may well get surprise on a number of monsters for a round with that skill). But his damage will suck, even with sneak attack.
In Rise they also can get a “Background feat” which is more like a trait.
Remember, you can’t attack from Stealth- he’s not going to be able to use that skill and get Sneak attack, unless it’s on a surprise round (and sure he certainly may well get surprise on a number of monsters for a round with that skill). But his damage will suck, even with sneak attack.
In Rise they also can get a “Background feat” which is more like a trait.
Why exactly can you not attack from stealth.
From PHB > Skill> Stealth
Sniping : If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
Edit: Attacking breaks stealth (usually), but thats a significant distinction.
“It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.” That’s the general rule. Now yes, there is a specific rule that allows it for sniping.
Do note the Blog where Paizo is trying to re-write the Stealth and perception rules to include a condition called “hidden”. But as for now, only Invisibility makes your foe lose his dex- (other than flanking, surprise round, or going first in round one of combat).
Because attacking from stealth doesn't deny the opponent their dexterity nor are they flat-footed. It's one of the ways Rogues get gypped when it comes to tactics. They are pretty much limited to flanking and bluff for sneak attacks. Even then, once you start fighting things like barbarians, only bluff becomes reliable.
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Halflings don't get a +2 racial bonus to Stealth, just acrobatics, climb, and perception.
Halflings are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
I would say (along with james who posted this already :P) the rules as written currently allow the use of sneak attack from stealth.
Getting Started:
"You apply your character's Dexterity modifier to [...] Armor Class (AC), provided that the character can react to the attack."
Combat - Armor Class
"If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC."
Stealth
"[Allows] you to [...] strike from an unseen position. [...] It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking [...] Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement." (emphasis mine)
So you don't get your Dex bonus to AC if you can't react to an attack, and you use Stealth as part of movement. At the time of an attack made after successfully using stealth, your target is unaware of your presence and can't react to your blow.
(Unless this has been discussed at length before and I completely missed it... :P)
I would say (along with james who posted this already :P) the rules as written currently allow the use of sneak attack from stealth.
Getting Started:
"You apply your character's Dexterity modifier to [...] Armor Class (AC), provided that the character can react to the attack."Combat - Armor Class
"If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC."Stealth
"[Allows] you to [...] strike from an unseen position. [...] It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking [...] Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement." (emphasis mine)So you don't get your Dex bonus to AC if you can't react to an attack, and you use Stealth as part of movement. At the time of an attack made after successfully using stealth, your target is unaware of your presence and can't react to your blow.
(Unless this has been discussed at length before and I completely missed it... :P)
It has. There’s even a blog where the devs came up with a fix for the rules, allowing Hidden as a condition so that Stealth could result in a Sneak attack etc.
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcml&page=7#306
There is indeed, some confusion about the ways the rules are worded. But the Blog makes it very clear that Stealth does not currently normally allow a Sneak Attack, that in order to do so they have to add a Hidden condition, re-write Perception, Stealth etc. So far, that rules change has been stalled, as it’s also clear (read the thread coming from the blog) that this opened up a HUGE can of worms.
Even tho the Blog is very clear, this has not stopped others from making similar points to yours, and others from refuting those points. Threads have gone on for many posts.
You can take solace in the fact that your way seems to be RAI. But according to the game devs, it’s not currently RAW.
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Halflings don't get a +2 racial bonus to Stealth, just acrobatics, climb, and perception.Halflings are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
I'm a little confused now, Jiggy. Is your bolded quote of the rules meant to show that I am wrong about the halfling bonus to stealth or merely to reinforce what I had already told james maissen?
If it is the former, james had already included the +4 size bonus in his calculation, and then further added another racial stealth bonus, which he admits was a silly mistake on his part.
If it is the latter, please disregard the previous statement.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Halflings don't get a +2 racial bonus to Stealth, just acrobatics, climb, and perception.Halflings are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.I'm a little confused now, Jiggy. Is your bolded quote of the rules meant to show that I am wrong about the halfling bonus to stealth or merely to reinforce what I had already told james maissen?
If it is the former, james had already included the +4 size bonus in his calculation, and then further added another racial stealth bonus, which he admits was a silly mistake on his part.
If it is the latter, please disregard the previous statement.
Actually my post mostly has to do with having not read the details of the post to which you were replying. :P
This all seems like rule/expectation confusion, not an overpowered pc problem. When I see something like "the/this rogue is overpowered", I tend to go owl faced, and say "O Rly?"
I snorted cereal on the table when I read the thread title, then went owl face.