I'm starting Rise of the Runelords this weekend with 3 of my friends and myself as GM.
I would like to avoid nerfing the adventure path. In stead I'd like the players to fight tactically use creative solutions and maybe buff them a bit by giving full hitpoints each level or something.
Du you have any suggestions for us to create a well-rounded party with only 3 players? Any ideas to how one player can fill multiple roles (like making a cleric take a level of fighter, give him heavy armour and make tank and healer)?
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Well, my advice is as follows:
1. Hospitaler Paladin. Healer and Tank in one effective, capable, package. Take the mount version of Divine Bond for an extra body. Can be done with a melee Druid plus pet as well, if you like (a lot worse at healing damage, a bit better with conditions).
2. Archer Bard. Ranged support, major buffing, and a little backup healing for the first couple of levels. Archer Inquisitor would also work here, serving as less of a buffer and more of a backup healer, and an Animal Domain one can even add another pet to the group. Probably needs to take Vagabond Child and sub in for a Rogue on trapfinding. A Ranger might also do in this slot, adding really good ranged combat and a pet (though not the support spells), but I'd only do that if you've got a Full Caster (ie: the Druid) on point.
3. Some kind of dedicated Arcane Caster. Wizard, Sorcerer, or Witch, precisely what isn't the point, it's having a save-or-die/area effect guy around, maybe with some additional party buffing and utility spells.
I can see your point about dedicated arcane caster - on top of save-or-die and aoe, the life just gets easier with spells like fly and wish. And thay also need someone to craft magic items i guess.
One player would like to play ranger. I have a hard time seeing him as anything else than damage-dealer. I guess you could dip into fighter and get some better armour, so you can tank.
you could have some weird good fun and go gestalt!
No need to think too much about it. Just make sure you don't have dedicated healers or buffers and you'll be allright.
Classes with pets can help too: a druid, a summoner (standard or syntesist) and ranger with boon companion (or paladin) and you will look like a six-person party. The druid can buff all of the pets (greater magic fang alone make them decent offensive-wise) and if everybody invests in CON you should have no problem.
Finally, you can use 20 or 25 point buy to balance things even more.
Just give them PB 25 and make sure they choose powerful classes (I liked the suggestions above). I would go with one Wizard, one Paladin (alternatively a ranger with favored enemy: giants), one Combat-Cleric (if staying with core classes).
No need for full HP / level - maybe let them roll two hit dice each level and keep the higher result.
And switch Xanesha and her sister. ;)
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All my favorite campaigns have had 3 players. It just works better for us.
Your characters will level faster anyway, and they'll have more treasure per person. It's very easy to balance them out by giving even more additional treasure, if they're struggling. If they're clever they'll probably overpower the monsters anyhow--3 players can mean fewer people to worry about.
In the Horror Campaign that I'm running, my 3 players routinely defeat monsters 2 or even 3 CRs above them. They are VERY much NOT optimized, taking abilities for flavor more than anything -- the ranger didn't even have a high enough Wisdom to cast spells until 8th level, when she negotiated for a +2 headband as a reward...
In addition, it is an extremely low-treasure game. I'm happy to report that the players have no problems whatsoever, and we are having a blast!
Enjoy the easier way of telling an interactive story--fewer main characters!
Moox
My group just started RotR with just 3 PCs (20pt-buy). Atm we're half way through Burnt Offerings (unnerfed, according to the GM) and it has worked well so far. The party consits of 1 Barbarian (aiming for Travel/Liberation Cleric), an Archer Ranger/Barbarian (Wild Rager for way too many attacks) and my Dawnflower Dervish Bard.
Maybe consider letting them take Leadership to get either a pure Wizard or Cleric.
Try to encourage cross over classes. Particularly the summoner and or druid. Those pets make a huge difference in a small party. Bard and witch are also really good choices.
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First, do not stress time constraints. I know Rise of the Runelords has some built-in deadlines - just gloss over them. With a 3 person party, they are going to need to retreat and rest more often. (fewer players = fewer resources = quicker resource exhaustion)
Second, as others have said, having conjuration specialist classes would help (druid, conjurer wizard, summoner). A high charisma paladin is certainly not a bad choice for the front-line fighter - hold the line, heal the party, eventually heal self as a swift action.
Third, if the leadership feat doesn't give you hives, encourage any high-charisma characters to take it.
Fourth, don't do experience points. Just level the characters when it is appropriate, and try to keep them one level above what is expected for a normal sized party. If you use xp to pace progression, the characters are going to start at low levels well behind the power-curve, but at later levels, they will be getting so much extra xp that they will jump ahead of the power curve too much.
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As all have said above, they should be fine. At least two will need to have decent combat abilities and at least one should be able to heal. As said in the post above, the level checkpoints work great. As an award system for clever play and such above and beyond normal play, you could use the Hero Point system. Companion classes work out well in these situations too. A small race cavalier, a druid or a summoner will all help.
The APs are for a party of 4 with a 15 point builds. For a party of 3, bump the build to 20. As far as classes, I would recommend:
a) Barbarian/Fighter - alternate levels till Fighter 4, then Barbarian the rest of the way. Pump up Intimidate, Perception and Stealth and outfit him in mithral armor. You have both a scout and a tank in one.
b) Sorcerer (or Wizard) - I prefer Sorcerer because you even with the limited spell selection, you are able to cast lots of them. Have them find lots of scrolls and wands for the not often needed spells that the Sorcerer does not take.
c) Cleric, or if you allow the APG, Battle Oracle and the first mystery is the one that allows heavy armor and martial weapons. This gives you both healing and tanking. Max Diplomacy and you have a party face.
Other than the one multi-class character, I have always found that single class is the way to go if at all possible.
There are several excellent guides to <class> that can be found in the "Guide to Guide" thread. Read those for helpful details.
-- david
Papa.DRB
In my opinion, and based on the types of campaigns I play in, a well round party has these things:
- A dedicated melee specialist
- A secondary melee support character, to flank, etc.
- At least 1 person (but not necessarily the same person) is very good at the following skills: Acrobatics, Disable Device, Perception, Spellcraft, Stealth, Survival
- Other skills at least somewhat decent--At least 1 social skill (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate), Sense Motive, any or all of the Knowledges but especially Arcane, Dungeoneering, Nature, Religion, and eventually Planes. Local if an urban campaign. Use Magic Device is very handy in small parties especially because it helps fill in some caster loss if it exists. And of course all the skills can potentially come in handy, these are just the ones I'd check first.
- Either 1 dedicated healer or 2 people who both have some healing
- Arcane spellcasting
- 1 ranged specialist, either an archer or arcane blaster
- Someone who can deal with traps in some way (this can be any combination of trapfinding, detect magic, find traps, good Perception, etc.)
- There is not a universal saving throw weakness. In other words, for example, if every single party member is bad at Will saves, this could be problematic. At least 1 person should have good saves per each type.
You could make any number of combinations of 3 characters that cover these things. Fighter, Alchemist, Cleric. Cavalier, Inquisitor, Wizard. Summoner, Druid, Barbarian. Bard, Witch, Ranger. Paladin, Magus, Rogue. Etc. etc. etc.
The other option is to rune an NPC. If you feel up to it, run the NPC yourself, and make it one of the standard classes. For instance, if you have a wizard, a ranger, and a rogue, make a healbot cleric for them and you'll generally have an easy time. Or if no one wants to run the fighter, they are fairly easy and straight forward to roll up and don't take much thought in the strategy (I move + attack or I full attack).
Maybe even allow 1 person to play two characters, but make sure (s)he's not running two spell casters as that can really slow things down.
In my gaming group, whenever players have to leave early for various reasons, like angry wives, medical emergencies, etc. I get to play their characters in addition to my own. Last Sunday, 3 players had to leave and I ended up playing 4 characters (my monk, a paladin-archer, a two-weapon ranger, and a cleric), running the initiative order (thank you Combat Manager), and helping out other players in the hobby store by giving advice for different classes (I'm recognized as the local Pathfinder expert).
Granted, it was tough, but if you have a player who knows the system well and is feeling up to it, consider letting him run two characters as a challenge. This also allows him the advantage of being able to play his character ideas at a quicker rate. I, personally, have over 20 different back stories for characters pre-written up on the off chance I get to play one, but games just don't come quick enough to play all my ideas.
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Thinking about this, and DeathQuaker's great checklist, This is a group combo I think would work well..
Druid - Melee Combat focused build + strong combat companion
Ranger - Urban Ranger archetype, can split between ranged and melee
Magus - Some arcane power and the ability to wade in and fight.
also a possibility, but missing some pieces(namely the roguish stuff
Paladin - Sacred Servant archetype, more powerful spellcasting plus a domain
Cleric - Animal and travel domain (not sure if any deities have both
Wizard - Foresight School, high initiative control/utility caster
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It is easy to balance a party of 3 players. The hard part is getting them to play the classes needed.
Oracle>Druid>Cleric : Divine caster with a reach weapon. The Oracle can fill divine caster, melee or range combat, and party face. The Druid, and animal companion can fill combat heavy role, divine caster. Cleric can fill melee or range combat, and divine caster.
Ranger>Paladin : Ranger (Urban Ranger) can fill melee or range combat, traps, and back up healing. Paladin can fill melee or range combat, good healing, party face.
Bard>Witch>Sorcerer>Wizard : Bard can fill arcane caster, party face, back up healing, and buffing. Witch can fill arcane caster, back up healing, knowledge skills. Sorcerer can fill arcane caster, party face, and wand healing with umd. Wizard can fill arcane caster, and knowledge skills.
Ideal party make up if you can get them to play the classes. IMO.
Oracle of Battle : Focused on Reach Weapon Combat, Divine Casting, Healing, Secondary Party Face.
Ranger/Rogue : Skill Utility, Switch Hitting Combat, and Wand Healing.
Bard : Party Face, Buffing, Arcane Caster, Secondary Healer, and Melee Combat Focus.
Another suggestion if you feel it appropriate, give them a NPC that you control, making you a player and a GM. Maybe make it 1 level behind or you could be a buffer/healer/controller intended to make the other players feel awesome. The controller bard from Treatmonk's guide would be a good choice - he uses whips and nets.
Combat Cleric - (any God with decent melee weapon as favored; my favorite cleric build is separatist Milani - Liberation and Travel) - channel smite, guided hand = decent fighter/healer.
Ranger (trapper)/Wizard - traps, sneaking, magic
Any 3rd class will do (I'd probably play Inquisitor). You are ready for the world
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Another suggestion if you feel it appropriate, give them a NPC that you control, making you a player and a GM. Maybe make it 1 level behind or you could be a buffer/healer/controller intended to make the other players feel awesome. The controller bard from Treatmonk's guide would be a good choice - he uses whips and nets.
One thing about that, you don't want to run an NPC that plays a critical tactical role when GMing. GMs have enough to do managing the adventure and controlling the enemies. If I must NPC something as a GM, and i stress must, I prefer to have a not-to-bright fighter type that doesn't provide anything but muscle. 7 int 7 wis, don't trust their judgement!
I'd say with 3 people just an advantage on the point buy or maybe a high powered dice roll setup and maybe some extra loot will give them the edge they need to stay alive and have fun. You could also have either some leadership takers in the party or run a support character along with the party.
Asta
PSY
Balanced Suggestions:
Pally- Oath of Vengeance
Ranger- Urban (Wolf Tripper buddy and suggest 'Giants' for FE)
Either Wizard or Witch
Pally can Melee, Ranger can switch hit, Wolf can eventually trip Huge foes
Neither need much buffing, Freeing the Caster to SOD/Controll
OR
Arcane Duelist
Inquisitor
Hexcrafter Magus
All 3 can melee but the Inquisitor should probably take power attack and focus feats on ranged to switch hit. Inquisitor should take animal domain for another body (Again wolf tripper)
Plenty of spells and all 3 can heal (The magus can use Infernal.Healing Gtr)
The bard covers party buff,
The inquisitor should be human and take bonus spells for condition removal
Hexcrafter takes care of blasting and Slumber Hex and Ice.Tomb for SOS
Light on High level spells but If the Magus focuses on Int/Str then the Hex DC will scale as good as a full caster.
Also allow 25 pt buy.
Thank you for all the ideas :D I'll Print this thread and take a look at it with the players.
I think we'll end up using 25-point buy and look at the suggested combos (but let the players choose whatever they want, ofc).
I'm new to Pathfinder, so playing a follower npc and keeping track of rules is probably a bit too much for me.
Gestalt Characters are a really fun idea, but since 2 of the players and myself are new to Pathfinder, it's probably too complicated for us, but we'll see what the players say.
If we go gestalt, it will probably be 15- og 20- point buy to balance it out a bit ;)
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Do not use Gestalt characters if you are new to the game. It will kill your game. Unless you are a experienced DM that knows how to adjust combat to fit the party.
Gestalt add a new level of power. There so many combinations that become over kill. With out the experience to understand how they will work. It's best not to do something like this.
25 point buy is going to be over kill as well. 20 point buy even with a new group will be more then enough. 15 point buy can be done with a experienced players. The down side is with 3 players. There action economy is lower then a normal party. Still with a good combination of classes they will be more then a match for the CR system.
Uh how about do nothing.
Really the PF characters are significantly more potent than their 3.5 forebears. So you could just run any 3 PF builds against the 3.5 baddies and likely be fine. It saves you the conversion headaches, makes the TPK encounters less threatening (Xanesha is still maybe a TPK) and means you don't have to adjust anything. If you are going with point buy I'd bump them up to 20 points and not stress it.
I could be wrong but I doubt it, I've run a couple of the old modules sans conversion with the new rules and blown through them.
I'm starting Rise of the Runelords this weekend with 3 of my friends and myself as GM.
I would like to avoid nerfing the adventure path. In stead I'd like the players to fight tactically use creative solutions and maybe buff them a bit by giving full hitpoints each level or something.
Du you have any suggestions for us to create a well-rounded party with only 3 players? Any ideas to how one player can fill multiple roles (like making a cleric take a level of fighter, give him heavy armour and make tank and healer)?
My Master Summoner (Halfling) serves as the party buffer, his summoned monsters are effectively melee tanks and his eidolon has been tricked out with Skilled evolutions to serve as the party rogue and scout.
To that I would add a Zen Archer and an Oath of Vengeance Paladin.
Excellent Ranged threat, excellent melee threat, solid buffing/battlefield manipulation and adequate healing.
Of course, nothing wrong with throwing a DM-run NPC in there to round things out if you'e really concerned.