The core rulebook did a great job on the core classes, but they seem to have been passed by to some extent. The rogue and fighter especially lag significantly behind some of the other more versatile classes. Core brought us rogue talents and armor training for fighters giving them new life. But three big books later I think both the rogue and fighter need some upgrades.
The Fantastic Four- the base classes from original D&D: fighter, cleric, rogue, and mage need to all be 'top classes'. The question is how to do this?
Fighter only feats and rogue talents are one obvious place to start. Maybe we have a fighter feat/rogue talent contest?
Fighters should get their talents like barbarians and rogues; perhaps with the ability to choose a combat feat in place of a talent at every even level if they so choose. Using the talent system fighters could do something unique from other classes and depending on what those talents are, gain some versatility, which is really where the class lacks compared to the more varried spellcasters. The ability to swap out so many combat feats every day (perhaps 1 per 4 levels or so) with an hour of training in the morning would go a long way to close that gap in the classes' abilities to react to their environment.
Severe problems with defense are the hallmarks of both classes, and a lack of innate magical power that for some reason doesn't extend to 'anti-magical' power.
And then there's the lack of mobility while fighting, and for the fighter, dearth of skill points for out of combat utility.
To revise the classes, you have to consider what you want out of them, and want them to represent.
Many fighter archetype abilities should be either class abilities or feats restricted to fighters (which is what archetype abilities are...very powerful fighter-restricted feats). Many feats should be condensed and their costs minimized. Things like the 2H fighters improved Power attack and stuff should just be available to any fighter.
Example, Vital Strike: At fighter levels 11 and 16, this should automatically improve to the next grade of Vital Strike.
Ex, Weapon Focus: If you are a Fighter, it gives +1 TH or automatically doubles your weapon training bonus with a given weapon. Then remove the ws,gwf, gws tree. This way, a fighter can reasonably focus in more then one weapon.
Bravery is a complete WASTE. Barbarians get Superstitious and a scaling will save. Paladins get Cha to ALL saves and IMMUNITY to fear.
Add Bravery to all Fighter saves. In addition, the Fighter either doubles his Base Will save against fear effects, or adds his Intimidate ranks, whatever is higher.
Alternately, just give him and the Rogue all good saves.
Pounce should be a feat, not just a rage power.
The Fighter needs more skill feats, and more access to feats which modify skills. having a dedicated feat line for skills and defensive feats would go a long way to alleviating the imbalance. A Fighter can get by with 2 skill points/level, IF he gets, say, a Skill Focus every other level, or similar feat. Alertness and Skill Focus Perception is +10 to Perception at 10th...goes a long way towards alleviating no skill ranks!
-----
Rogues should probably get full BAB on a sneak attack, full attack, or single attack...pick one. Maybe on their FIRST attack. Yeah.
Also, I'd give all Rogues +1 COmpetency bonus to a chosen skill, one skill/2 levels, every 2 levels. That means at level 20 they'd have a +10 Competency bonus in 10 skills, making them the undisputed master of skills (other classes could spend a potion to be as good as the Rogue is ALL THE TIME...take that, ninjas!)
In addition, skills should be revised with deeds that are only obtainable with skill ranks, not bonuses. For instance, if you can only craft adamantine if you have 12 Skill Ranks in the skill, it doesn't matter how high your check is...it's going to require a legendary smith to make that adamantine toy. This helps out the Rogue more then any other class because of their loads of skill points. Virtua ranks, like the bard, just give you cheap numbers, they don't allow the 'extras' a rogue would get. Essentially, skills grant a bunch of extra class benefits. Perhaps a whole subset of skill rank triggers for extra abilities for rogues?
I can so see any Rogue:10+ with 10 Ranks in Stealth getting Hide in Plain Sight. They get something similar with Rogue Talents, just formalize it in the skills.
==Aelryinth
To be honest, the only things that really need beefing up are their saves. The rogue is wicked enough with sneak attack now effecting almost everything. The fighter rules in DPR (or should do) and AC. If I were re-writing them I'd have given them both a second good save - reflex for the fighter, Will for the rogue.
An option to get around the 'needs healing' concept of Rogues and Fighters is to make all their hit points from Constitution 'temporary hit points' that refresh after a short rest, ala 4E, similar to the Wounds/Vitality system.
This should greatly decrease the amount of healing these two classes need over time, while not doing much different in a single fight. You could probably do the same with a barbarian's rage hit points, but that's a very significant power-up for a barbarian, and they have enough advantages that they don't need it.
Giving free skill feats or skill bonuses would aid in UMD for wands, too, or Master Artisan making magic items.
==Aelryinth
Fighters should get their talents like barbarians and rogues; perhaps with the ability to choose a combat feat in place of a talent at every even level if they so choose. Using the talent system fighters could do something unique from other classes and depending on what those talents are, gain some versatility, which is really where the class lacks compared to the more varried spellcasters. The ability to swap out so many combat feats every day (perhaps 1 per 4 levels or so) with an hour of training in the morning would go a long way to close that gap in the classes' abilities to react to their environment.
Amongst my piles of theoretical builds and rebuilds, I did a revised fighter that did this talent system, where fighter talents replaced the bonus feat every level. I made all the fighter only feats into talents -- 'cause that's what they really are, IMO, they are optional fighter class abilities that got put into the wrong part of the book and added additional stuff that focused on fighting styles as well as some combat related skill tricks. Need to playtest it, but at the end of the day it didn't look broken.
As for the rogue (going back to the OP), I don't think it lags "significantly behind" in the game--rogues have a neat combination of abilities that few others can have in that combination that make them endlessly versatile and useful in a given campaign. I've often asked for examples for how people have felt weak or useless playing rogues and seldom been given adequate responses. So IMO the "incredible weakness" of the rogue is a theorycraft fallacy that focuses on all the wrong parts of what makes a class work.
THAT SAID I do think the rogue could use a little help in two specific areas, to make an already decent class better (without being broken):
1. Rogues tend to want to be Dexterous for obvious reasons. I think some version of Weapon Finesse and Agile Manuevers at first level as a combination could be given to them to avoid feat taxing melee oriented rogues.
It could even be a limited ability so as not to diminish the feats themselves. Something like:
Rogue Finesse: "Pick one light or finessable melee weapon in which the rogue is proficient. The rogue treats that weapon as if she had the Weapon Finesse feat (i.e., she uses her Dexterity to attack rolls in place of Strength). She also uses Dexterity in place of Strength for Disarm, Steal, and Reposition combat maneuvers.
2. Not all rogue talents are created equal. They ARE what makes rogues unique from other classes these days. But many of them are ridiculously circumstantial. More rogue talents that were more broadly useful would probably help make them stand out.
What would you think about the fighter being 1 AND 1/3 BAB? At multiples of four levels the BAB goes up two.
Then make the rogue full BAB.
That saves messing too much with other things.
DeathQuaker: I'd be interested in seeing your revised fighter if you have it typed up somewhere. I tend to fiddle with gaming systems a lot myself.
Could do talents in such a way as to allow fighters to provide assistance in the form of intimidate/bleed/cripple/etc. debuffs easier or earlier in the game.
Tie some talents to Power Attack, others to Combat Expertise, still more to things like Stalwart, etc. where instead of gaining the bonus for the feat on a turn you instead--using the talent--would get some other type of combat-oriented "move."
So it'd be like the barbarian rage powers that allow the barbarian to apply an effect instead of the Powerful Blow (I think is what it's called), but instead of 1/rage it'd be x/day equal to Int, Wis, whatever mod.
What would you think about the fighter being 1 AND 1/3 BAB?
With Weapon training and the Weapon Focus feats, they effectively are already.
Yes, but lets say fighters had +2 BAB vs +1 BAB every so many levels they would get their iterative attacks faster.
Easier to just make a fighter only feat that iteratives go off at -4 instead of -5. World of Warcraft 3.0 did it that way.
Seriously, Fighters don't need help in the attacks/damage dept.
They need a way to get off full attacks when they want to, not when the enemy allows them.
they need skill points or an alternate.
They need better saves and defiance of magic.
==Aelryinth
So if only fighters could made a full attack on a charge - though let's say a fighter only feat, that would help.
Defying magic is not a fighters strong suit.
I guess if fighters suddenly were granted +2 BAB jumps at every even level, would they be overpowered?
DeathQuaker: I'd be interested in seeing your revised fighter if you have it typed up somewhere. I tend to fiddle with gaming systems a lot myself.
I think it's on my other computer but I will look for it.
So if only fighters could made a full attack on a charge - though let's say a fighter only feat, that would help.
I would say an extra attack is worth a feat. Full attack is worth at least two.
Defying magic is not a fighters strong suit.
As I said, at least one other good save.
I guess if fighters suddenly were granted +2 BAB jumps at every even level, would they be overpowered?
Yes! the other combat classes can barely keep up with the fighter as is!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
FIGHTER
BAB: +1
Good Saves: Fortitude
Hit Dice: 1d10
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (any two) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Intelligence modifier
Fighters are proficient in all simple and martial weapons, all armors, and all shields, including tower shields.
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Bonus Feat, Signature Weapon
2. Bonus Feat, Saving Grace 1/day
3. Defensive Training 1
4. Bonus Feat, Fighter Talent
5. Offensive Training 1
6. Bonus Feat, Saving Grace 2/day
7. Defensive Training 2
8. Bonus Feat, Fighter Talent
9. Offensive Training 2
10. Bonus Feat, Saving Grace 3/day
11. Defensive Training 3
12. Bonus Feat, Fighter Talent
13. Offensive Training 3
14. Bonus Feat, Saving Grace 4/day
15. Defensive Training 4
16. Bonus Feat, Fighter Talent
17. Offensive Training 4
18. Bonus Feat, Saving Grace 5/day
19. Defensive Training 5
20. Bonus Feat, Fighter Talent, Offensive Training 5
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the fighter gains a bonus combat feat.
Signature Weapon: At 1st level, the fighter may choose to gain proficiency in a single exotic weapon or choose to gain the Weapon Focus feat in a weapon he already is proficient in.
Saving Grace (Ex): At 2nd level, the fighter may re-roll a failed saving throw as an immediate action once per day. Alternatively, he may add half his fighter level to a single saving throw once per day as an immediate action. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, he gains an additional daily use of this ability.
Defensive Training (Ex or Su): At 3rd level, the fighter may choose Armor Training (as the standard fighter), or Armor Enhancement (+1 enhancement to any armor you wear at 3rd level, +2 at 7th level, +3 at 11th level, +4 at 15th level, and +5 at 19th level).
Fighter Talent (Ex, Sp, or Su): At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the fighter gains one of the following abilities. The fighter must meet any requirements of the selected talent.
Generalist (Ex): The fighter gains a bonus general feat.
Graceful Avoidance (Ex): When using Saving Grace, if you successfully make a saving throw against an effect that normally causes half damage or a has a partial effect, you take no damage or suffer no ill consequences instead.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Prerequisite: Uncanny Dodge.
Major Magic (Sp): Prerequisite: Intelligence 11, minor magic fighter talent
Benefit: A fighter with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the fighter's level. The save DC for this spell is 11 + the fighter's Intelligence modifier
Minor Magic (Sp): Prerequisite: Intelligence 10
Benefit: A fighter with this talent gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This spell can be cast three times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the fighter's level. The save DC for this spell is 10 + the fighter's Intelligence modifier.
Monster Slayer (Ex): The fighter adds half his class level on Knowledge checks made to identify monsters and the special abilities of a monster; he may make these Knowledge checks untrained.
Signature Weapon Mastery (Ex): The fighter may select one of the following feats and apply it to his signature weapon: Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization. This fighter talent can be selected multiple times; each time it is selected, a different feat must be chosen.
Skilled Combatant (Ex): The fighter adds half his fighter level to Bluff checks made to feint in combat, Intimidate checks made to demoralize opponents in combat, etc.
Sneaky Attack (Ex): The fighter adds his Dexterity modifier to damage rolls against opponents that are flat-footed or flanked by him.
Team Player (Ex): The fighter gains a bonus teamwork feat.
Tough Combat Maneuver Defense (Ex): The fighter adds his Constitution modifier to his Combat Maneuver Defense.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As the barbarian ability of the same name.
Versatile Combatant (Ex): The fighter can use his Strength or Dexterity score in place of his Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score when qualifying for feats.
Vital Striker (Ex) Prerequisite: BAB +6. Benefit: You gain Vital Strike as a bonus feat. When your BAB is +11, you gain Improved Vital Strike as a bonus feat. When your BAB is +16, you gain Greater Vital Strike as a bonus feat.
Offensive Training (Ex or Su): At 5th level, the fighter chooses to either gain Weapon Training 1 (and Weapon Training 2, 3, and 4 at levels 9, 13, and 17, and Weapon Mastery at 20th level) or the ability to grant his signature weapon a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls; this improves to +2 at 9th level, +3 at 13th level, +4 at 17th level, and +5 at 20th level; these enhancement bonuses stack with any enhancement bonus the weapon may already possess, up to a maximum of +5 (this bonus maximum increases to +6 at 20th level).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For the Rogue:
Rogue Trick (Ex): Rogues are very versatile, and learn how to change with their situations. Each day, the rogue gains a small pool of points he can spend on a variety of different abilities. The rogue gains 1 point at 1st level, plus 1 additional point at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter. The abilities the rogue can gain are as follows:
+1 to AC and CMD
+1 on attack rolls and CMB
+1 to damage rolls
+1 to Fortitude Saving Throws
+1 to Reflex Saving Throws
+1 to Will Saving Throws
+1 to Strength and Dexterity based skill checks
+1 to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma based skill checks
+5 feet of speed
+2 to initiative
+5 hit points
At 10th level, the rogue gains the following additional options:
+1 to attack, CMB, and damage rolls
+1 to all Saving Throws
DR 1/-
Acid Resistance 5
Cold Resistance 5
Electricity Resistance 5
Fire Resistance 5
Sonic Resistance 5
+2 to AC against attack rolls to confirm critical hits
+2 to AC against attacks of opportunity
+2 on checks to avoid non-lethal damage
1 daily luck re-roll on any d20 roll.
+5 to a specific skill
10% miss chance against ranged attacks.
Climb Speed of 10 feet
Swim Speed of 5 feet
At 20th level, the rogue gains the following additional options:
+1 to Strength
+1 to Dexterity
+1 to Constitution
+1 to Intelligence
+1 to Wisdom
+1 to Charisma
Fast Healing 1 (up to 1/2 the rogue's maximum hit point total)
+4 to AC against attacks of opportunity and attack rolls to confirm critical hits
10% miss chance against melee and ranged attacks.
DeathQuaker: I'd be interested in seeing your revised fighter if you have it typed up somewhere. I tend to fiddle with gaming systems a lot myself.I think it's on my other computer but I will look for it.
Here it is. It is a very rough draft and needs work--and more talents added (half the talents are just the fighter-only feats reworded, but the rest are new).
I tried to keep it as close to core as possible so you could still use archetypes as written--the only notable changes are the talents, and I bumped up the skill points to 4+ (which is negotiable). Less notably, I added a "staves" weapon category for weapon training. Bravery is rewritten to apply to demoralize as well.
FIGHTER
Role: Fighters excel at combat—defeating their enemies, controlling the flow of battle, and surviving such sorties themselves. While their specific weapons and methods grant them a wide variety of tactics, few can match fighters for sheer battle prowess.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.
Class Skills
The fighter's class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Table: Fighter
(same as core Fighter, just "Talent" instead of Bonus Feat)
Class Features
The following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).
Fighter talents: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter learns talents that help him hone his martial expertise. Unless otherwise noted, a fighter talent cannot be taken more than once.
Some fighter talents have prerequisites, which must be met before the talent is taken.
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new fighter talent in place of one he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the fighter talent in exchange for the new one. The old talent cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another talent, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one talent at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the talent at the time he gains a new fighter talent for the level.
The following fighter talents can be taken starting at level 1:
Acrobatic Combatant: The fighter gains Acrobatics as a class skill. (Maybe also acts as alternate prereq for Mobility and Spring Attack?)
Noble Warrior: This talent can only be taken at first level. The fighter loses Intimidate and Knowledge: Dungeoneering as class skills, but gains Bluff, Diplomacy, and Knowledge: Nobility.
Combat Talent: A fighter can choose to take a combat feat instead of a fighter talent. This talent can be taken more than once, a different feat chosen each time. Feats can be taken more than once as a combat talent if the feat normally can be taken more than once (for example, weapon focus).
Field Medic: The fighter has learned to lend aid to his fellow combatants when they have fallen. The fighter gains Heal as a class skill, and whenever an ally falls in combat (0 hp or less), he may take an immediate action to move 5 feet toward the fallen ally. This does not provoke AOOs. If the fighter chooses to take this movement, he cannot use the Step Up feat for the next round and cannot make a 5 foot step on his next turn.
Iron Fist: The fighter’s unarmed strike damage increases to 1d4. A fighter can take this talent a second time to increase his unarmed strike damage to 1d6. If the fighter also has monk levels, he uses his monk damage dice instead, and this talent has no effect.
Vigilant Guard: The fighter has experience as a guard and has learned to stay on the alert at all times. Perception becomes a class skill for the fighter, and the fighter gets a +1 class bonus to Initiative.
Insulting Riposte: Prerequisite: Noble Warrior fighter talent
Whenever the fighter makes an AOO with a melee weapon, he makes a cutting remark and adds his Charisma modifier to damage if he successfully hits. This only works on creatures which can understand the fighter, and the fighter must be able to speak to use this ability.
Shield Specialization: Choose one type of shield (buckler, light, heavy, or, if you are proficient, tower shield). With the selected shield, you gain a +2 bonus to your Armor Class against critical hit confirmation rolls. In addition, you may add your base shield bonus (including the bonus from the Shield Focus feat if you have it, but not including enhancement bonuses) to your CMD.
At fighter level 12 or higher, you may take this talent a second time to increases this bonus to +4.
Trip Trick: Choose one melee weapon in which the fighter either has the Weapon Focus feat, or in which he has weapon training. If the latter, he must be at least 6th level to take this talent. This must be a single type of weapon, not a broad category, such as “longsword,” not “heavy blade.” The weapon cannot be a light weapon. This weapon for the fighter becomes a weapon with the Trip feature. He can apply any bonuses he normally gets to attack bonuses with this weapon to combat maneuvers to trip opponents with this weapon.
Weapon Specialization: Choose one weapon in which the fighter either has the Weapon Focus feat, or enhances with the weapon training ability. If the latter, he must be at least 6th level to take this talent. This must be a single type of weapon, not a broad category, such as “longsword,” not “heavy blade.” The choice can include unarmed strikes or grapple. The fighter gains a +2 bonus to damage whenever he successfully attacks with this weapon.
This talent can be taken more than once, each time applying it to a different weapon.
This talent can also be taken a second time at 16th level to increase the damage dealt by a weapon in which a fighter is already specialized by +2, for a total of +4.
Disruptive: The fighter learns how to harry spellcasters. The DC to cast spells defensively increases by +4 for all enemies that are within his threatened area. This increase to casting spells defensively only applies if the fighter is aware of the enemy's location and is capable of taking an attack of opportunity. If the fighter can only take one attack of opportunity per round and has already used that attack, this increase does not apply. This feat can be taken again at level 12 or after to increase the DC by a total of +6.
Smart Strike: The fighter can strike his foe with planning and precision. He may make only one attack roll (ranged, melee, or combat maneuver) this round (this is otherwise a standard action), but he applies his Intelligence bonus to attack and damage in addition to all normal bonuses. This can be combined with an attack made using the Vital Strike feat tree. The damage applied is considered precision damage and foes immune to precision damage or sneak attacks ignores the additional damage (but the fighter still gets the bonus to attack).
Trained Expertise: The fighter can ignore the Intelligence 13 prerequisite for the Combat Expertise feat. This also applies to any combat maneuver-based feats that branch off Combat Expertise, such as Improved Disarm.
Disrupting Shot: If the fighter readies an action to shoot an opponent casting a spell within 30 feet and successfully hits that opponent with a ranged attack, the concentration DC to successfully cast the spell is increased by +4. The fighter must have disruptive to take this talent.
Soldier’s Rally: As a full round action, the fighter delivers a war cry or rousing speech which boosts the morale of his allies. The fighter’s allies gain the benefits of his bravery class ability for a number of rounds equal to the fighter’s Charisma modifier. If the fighter has Intimidating Prowess, he can substitute his Strength modifier for Charisma.
If the fighter has taken an archetype which replaces bravery, he cannot take this fighter talent except at the GM’s discretion (the allies would instead gain the bonuses from the ability that replaced bravery).
Spellbreaker: Prerequisite: Disruptive Fighter Talent
Enemies in the fighter’s threatened area that fail their checks to cast spells defensively provoke attacks of opportunity from the fighter.
Penetrating Strike: Choose one weapon in which the fighter either has the Weapon Focus feat or weapon training. This must be a specific weapon type, such as longsword, not “heavy blade,” even if it is qualified for with weapon training. Attacks with this weapon ignore up to 5 points of damage reduction. This feat does not apply to damage reduction without a type (such as DR 10/—). This talent can be taken a second time at fighter level 16 or after, to increase the amount of DR the chosen weapon ignores by 5, for a total of 10.
Critical Mastery: Prerequisite: Two critical feats
The fighter’s mightiest blows are doubly devastating. If the fighter has multiple critical feats, he can apply the effects of two of those feats to the attack, rather than 1.
Shield Block: Prerequisite: Shield Specialization
Once per day, as long as you have equipped the type of shield in which you have specialization, you can choose to ignore a critical hit, taking normal damage instead.
Gaping Wound: Prerequisite: Penetrating Strike
The fighter creates a wound in a normally tough hided creature that his allies can take advantage of. If a fighter successfully deals damage to a creature with DR, he can choose as an immediate action to create a gaping wound. If he does so, all allies gain the benefit of his penetrating strike ability for one round, ending at the beginning of the fighter’s next turn. However, once that round is finished, the fighter’s penetrating strike ability does not work again on the same creature for the rest of that combat, neither for himself nor anyone else. (This probably needs some tweaking)
-----
Bravery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd. This bonus is also added to the DC of any demoralize attempts made against the fighter.
Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.
In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.
Note that Weapon Training does not grant weapon proficiency.
Weapon groups are defined as follows (GMs may add other weapons to these groups, or add entirely new groups): [this is the Ultimate Combat list, plus 1 added]
Axes: bardiche, battleaxe, dwarven waraxe, greataxe, handaxe, heavy pick, hooked axe, knuckle axe, light pick, mattock, orc double axe, pata, and throwing axe
Blades, Heavy: bastard sword, chakram, double chicken saber, double walking stick katana, elven curve blade, falcata, falchion, greatsword, great terbutje, katana, khopesh, longsword, nine-ring broadsword, nodachi, scimitar, scythe, seven-branched sword, shotel, temple sword, terbutje, and two-bladed sword
Blades, Light: bayonet, butterfly sword, dagger, gladius, kama, kerambit, kukri, pata, quadrens, rapier, short sword, sica, sickle, starknife, swordbreaker dagger, sword cane, and wakizashi
Bows: composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, and shortbow
Close: bayonet, brass knuckles, dan bong, emei piercer, fighting fan, gauntlet, heavy shield, iron brush, light shield, madu, mere club, punching dagger, sap, scizore, spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield, tekko-kagi, tonfa, unarmed strike, wooden stake, and wushu dart
Crossbows: double crossbow, hand crossbow, heavy crossbow, heavy repeating crossbow, light crossbow, light repeating crossbow, and tube arrow shooter
Double: dire flail, dwarven urgrosh, gnome hooked hammer, orc double axe, quarterstaff, and two-bladed sword
Firearms: all one-handed, two-handed, and siege firearms
Flails: chain spear, dire flail, double chained kama, flail, flying blade, heavy flail, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, meteor hammer, morningstar, nine-section whip, nunchaku, sansetsukon, scorpion whip, spiked chain, urumi, and whip
Hammers: aklys, battle aspergillum, club, greatclub, heavy mace, light hammer, light mace, mere club, taiaha, tetsubo, wahaika, and warhammer
Monk: bo staff, brass knuckles, butterfly sword, cestus, dan bong, double chained kama, double chicken saber, emei piercer, fighting fan, jutte, kama, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, lungshuan tamo, monk's spade, nine-ring broadsword, nine-section whip, nunchaku, quarterstaff, rope dart, sai, sansetsukon, seven-branched sword, shang gou, shuriken, siangham, tiger fork, tonfa, tri-point double-edged sword, unarmed strike, urumi, wushu dart
Natural: unarmed strike and all natural weapons, such as bite, claw, gore, tail, and wing
Polearms: bardiche, bec de corbin, bill, glaive, glaive-guisarme, guisarme, halberd, hooked lance, lucerne hammer, mancatcher, monk's spade, naginata, nodachi, ranseur, and tiger fork
Spears: amentum, boar spear, javelin, harpoon, lance, longspear, pilum, shortspear, sibat, spear, tiger fork, and trident
Staves: bo staff, club, greatclub, mere club, tonfa, quarterstaff, staff sling
Thrown: aklys, amentum, atlatl, blowgun, bolas, boomerang, chakram, club, dagger, dart, halfling sling staff, harpoon, javelin, lasso, kestros, light hammer, net, poisoned sand tube, rope dart, shortspear, shuriken, sling, spear, starknife, throwing axe, throwing shield, trident, and wushu dart
Siege Engines: all siege engines
Armor Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a fighter gains DR 5/— whenever he is wearing armor or using a shield.
Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.
If this version of the fighter is used, these additional house rules come into play:
Feat Revisions
Remove the following from the master list of feats (they have been turned into fighter talents): Disruptive, Spellbreaker, Shield Specialization, Greater Shield Specialization, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Penetrating Strike, Greater Penetrating Strike, Critical Mastery, Disrupting Shot, and Pin Down.
The following feats have been changed to remove a fighter level requirement and remain listed as available feats to anyone if they meet the prerequisites:
Greater Shield Focus
Prerequisites: Shield Focus, BAB +12
Greater Weapon Focus
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, BAB +16
(This also means that anyone can qualify for Deadly Stroke and other remaining feats that require Greater Weapon focus)
Class Revisions
The Eldritch Knight gains fighter talents instead of bonus combat feats, and its level counts toward qualifying for fighter talents.
The arcane duelist’s ability to use its class abilities related to fighter-only feats remains, it is simply as the fighter talent rather than as the feat. Same goes for classes with similar abilities.
personally I dont think a re-design if going to help. They need to be re-conceptualized. Sneak attack, weapon training, and bonus feats are all great, but the reason they lag behind is because they are 'normal' character classes in a fantasy world. The answer isn't making them slightly better at what they already do, the answer is giving them new KINDS of things to do. Personally I'd think working with tome of battle from 3.5 conceptually if not in practice is the way to go. Even if you stick to the more mundane abilities offered, it is just so much better then trying to work within the existing framework. The new classes are 'better' because they get to do cool stuff. A talent system isnt going to be enough to make up for that. Something close to the capability of spell slots though, that ought to work.
|
Fighters with their kits can actually be really good; Polearm masters and two-weaponers that focus on shields especially.
Rogues can't be helped without major revision; and why not just leave them the way they are and make more classes? The ninja was deffinetly a step in the "rogue being better" department.
personally I dont think a re-design if going to help. They need to be re-conceptualized. Sneak attack, weapon training, and bonus feats are all great, but the reason they lag behind is because they are 'normal' character classes in a fantasy world. The answer isn't making them slightly better at what they already do, the answer is giving them new KINDS of things to do. Personally I'd think working with tome of battle from 3.5 conceptually if not in practice is the way to go. Even if you stick to the more mundane abilities offered, it is just so much better then trying to work within the existing framework. The new classes are 'better' because they get to do cool stuff. A talent system isnt going to be enough to make up for that. Something close to the capability of spell slots though, that ought to work.
The thing is, I like the fighter precisely because of its simplicity and non-magic-ness. I've seen a lot of flash-and-bang warriors with reskinned magic tricks in 3.x and homebrewed for Pathfinder, and I would rather play the fighter. The "mundane" option needs to be there for the people who want to play that because for some folks, non magic/whatever does not mean boring.
I am playing a fighter right now and if you gave her anything resembling "spell slots" and abilities that fill in them, I'd throw the character sheet away and build something else, because she would no longer be the fun character I am playing, but fit some other weird fantasy hybrid concept that I wasn't looking to do.
I'll also note that my favorite base class from the new books is the cavalier, and I like the inquisitor and witch okay. The rest I actually find too niche and too schticky and don't look like fun for me to play *personally*. I know other people like them and they fill a niche and should stay because of that--but so do and should the fighter and rogue. Personally I think if you want "more fantasy" in a character class you just shouldn't play a fighter, but it doesn't mean the fighter shouldn't exist.
But the fighter just needs a little more oomph than "good at weapons." They do need to be able to more obviously have a way to contribute to the game beyond "I hit it with my sword." But for me that does not mean giving it something that is mystical/fantastical, necessarily. IMO the tweaks needed are tiny ones just to make it a little more flexible, and precisely NOT an entire reconceptualization.
Rogues are quite fantasy enough with a number of their class abilities, but the one unique trick that Pathfinder gave them, rogue talents, need to be built more consistently.
All of course IMO and YMMV.
The thing is, I like the fighter precisely because of its simplicity and non-magic-ness. I've seen a lot of flash-and-bang warriors with reskinned magic tricks in 3.x and homebrewed for Pathfinder, and I would rather play the fighter. The "mundane" option needs to be there for the people who want to play that because for some folks, non magic/whatever does not mean boring.
I understand this desire, but the problem is you then have to understand you are playing something that is conceptually and inherently handicapped. You cant have the guy who transforms into a bear, with his lion buddy, the guy who warps space and time, the guy who is the literal embodiment of the power of his god, and the guy with the sharp bit of metal, and have everything turn out ok and even.
I am playing a fighter right now and if you gave her anything resembling "spell slots" and abilities that fill in them, I'd throw the character sheet away and build something else, because she would no longer be the fun character I am playing, but fit some other weird fantasy hybrid concept that I wasn't looking to do.
You can give unique 'powers' that er still rooted in the mundane. The problem for the rogue and the fighter is they only have always on abilities, they have no 'spike' resources to give them that extra umph for something special. The ninja is a great example of what happens if you add something that isn't always on in the form of the ki powers. It allows a balanced addition to the rogue, that works within the existing framework of the game.
So let me ask you, if you gave the fighter 'manuevers' that behaved similarly to spells, except that they were rooted in mundane concepts, how would you feel about it? Standard action abilities that are a resource to be managed, that can do something above and beyond what a fighter normally can. I feel like combat manuevers were an attempt at this very thing, but they dont go far enough, and they still have the always on and everybody can do them limitations that hinder them being real game changers the way the spells and effects of other classes are.
I'll also note that my favorite base class from the new books is the cavalier, and I like the inquisitor and witch okay. The rest I actually find too niche and too schticky and don't look like fun for me to play *personally*. I know other people like them and they fill a niche and should stay because of that--but so do and should the fighter and rogue. Personally I think if you want "more fantasy" in a character class you just shouldn't play a fighter, but it doesn't mean the...
Please note, by more fantasy, i dont mean slinging 'magic'. What i mean is stepping beyond the bounds, if for a limited time of what a normal human being can do. That is what the rogue or fighter lack, some kind of expendable resource that lets them do something special.
I understand this desire, but the problem is you then have to understand you are playing something that is conceptually and inherently handicapped.
The thing is, I like the fighter precisely because of its simplicity and non-magic-ness. I've seen a lot of flash-and-bang warriors with reskinned magic tricks in 3.x and homebrewed for Pathfinder, and I would rather play the fighter. The "mundane" option needs to be there for the people who want to play that because for some folks, non magic/whatever does not mean boring.
Kolokotroni, I cannot even brain the idea that wanting to play something like a fighter is "conceptually and inherently handicapped," so a lot of what you're saying doesn't even make any sense to me. This is likely my own limitation, but I am unable and unwilling to respond any further to it.
Fighters CAN do things outside the realm of human possibility--a high level fighter can dish out damage on the level of an M1 Abrams. It's just not sparkly the way a wizard casts spells. In my mind, I do equate--very roughly--what a fighter or rogue might be able to do to the guy that turns into a bear, because in several circumstances, turning into a bear is actually completely useless, and the guy who can warp space and time is exhausted from the one time he tried it while the balor made his saving throw, and the fighter and the rogue are still tearing the demon lord a new one. For me, the always on abilities of the fighter and rogue are exactly their appeal.
You and I are approaching the fighter class from incredibly different angles. All I can say is what you want out of it is probably the opposite of what I want, and I doubt we will be able to convince the other of our reasoning.
Maybe give the fighter something like the Talents granted to Strong and Tough Heroes from d20 Modern? Make them good at lifting stuff, breaking stuff, carrying stuff, etc. etc. Maybe good at resisting a little energy damage, minor DR, good at enduring long marches or holding their breath, etc. etc. Maybe even good at outwitting opponents, making tactical plans, etc. etc.
I'm glad I'm not the only one, though we seem to be in the minority.For me, the always on abilities of the fighter and rogue are exactly their appeal.
You and I are approaching the fighter class from incredibly different angles. All I can say is what you want out of it is probably the opposite of what I want, and I doubt we will be able to convince the other of our reasoning.
I'm with you guys. I like the fighter fine as is. Oh, it could use better skills, maybe, and an 'intelligent' option, but otherwise it's just fine.
DeathQuaker, I understand where you are coming from. I'm in your camp. I want martial characters to have nice things but there is a certain truth in what Kolokotroni says. In Pathfinder, when you start hitting the mid-level range, the fighter and the wizard begin playing two very different games. Purely martial resources like feats and fighter class abilities just pale in comparison to a wizard's capabilities -unless- of course, the fighter makes up the difference in power by making judicious use of magical items and enchanting his gear. Even that is a concession to using magic. Some are fine with that, but anyone and any class can use those items.
Kolokotroni is suggesting implementing something like a per day resource for the fighter. It doesn't have to be reskinned magic unless you're just determined to look at it that way. Call it Reserves or Inner Strength or just Bad-ass points if it makes you giggle. Regardless, this should be something that the fighter can tap into when he really needs it but it really taxes his body so he can't do it that often. Think of that tradition of grand moments of heroism where Beowulf rips off Grendel's arm or when Éowyn delivered the killing blow to the Witch-king. It's that critical, deciding moment that showcases the fighter's heroism which they had to dig deep to accomplish.
The mechanics can be up to you (temporary DR, big bonuses to physical scores, blocking out all pain to gain temporary hp) but the idea remains the same. It's just like rounds of rage for a barbarian or grit for a gunslinger or challenges for a cavalier. There's no hocus-pocus there, it's all coming from the fighter. It's something to compliment his natural abilities, not replace them. The fighter has heroism.
Edit: That all being said, I really like the idea of your fighter talents, DeathQuaker. I wasn't aware there was a minority but if the fighter had to be revised (which seems to be what the OP is asking) then I'd like to see something dynamic added to it, not just more static bonuses. Everyone seems to think the two are mutually exclusive. Why not let the fighter keep his existing toys (with a few tweaks) -and- have the nifty limited resource? Nothing he couldn't function without, of course, but something to make him truly shine when he needs to.
Maybe something as simple as a pool of re-rolls or double rolls.
For example, when confirming a critical hit, the fighter can roll twice and select the higher result.
It might work a number of times per day equal to 1/2 his level + his Constitution modifier.
It might work for combat-related skill checks, confirming crits, saving throws, etc.
Other talents might let it be used to on regular attack rolls, negate hits, absorb damage, initiative, etc. etc.
EDIT:
Maybe get a healing surge, healing 1 hit point per level, + Con bonus?
DeathQuaker, I understand where you are coming from. I'm in your camp. I want martial characters to have nice things but there is a certain truth in what Kolokotroni says. In Pathfinder, when you start hitting the mid-level range, the fighter and the wizard begin playing two very different games. Purely martial resources like feats and fighter class abilities just pale in comparison to a wizard's capabilities -unless- of course, the fighter makes up the difference in power by making judicious use of magical items and enchanting his gear. Even that is a concession to using magic. Some are fine with that, but anyone and any class can use those items.
Kolokotroni is suggesting implementing something like a per day resource for the fighter. It doesn't have to be reskinned magic unless you're just determined to look at it that way. Call it Reserves or Inner Strength or just Bad-ass points if it makes you giggle. Regardless, this should be something that the fighter can tap into when he really needs it but it really taxes his body so he can't do it that often. Think of that tradition of grand moments of heroism where Beowulf rips off Grendel's arm or when Éowyn delivered the killing blow to the Witch-king. It's that critical, deciding moment that showcases the fighter's heroism which they had to dig deep to accomplish.
The mechanics can be up to you (temporary DR, big bonuses to physical scores, blocking out all pain to gain temporary hp) but the idea remains the same. It's just like rounds of rage for a barbarian or grit for a gunslinger or challenges for a cavalier. There's no hocus-pocus there, it's all coming from the fighter. It's something to compliment his natural abilities, not replace them. The fighter has heroism.
Edit: That all being said, I really like the idea of your fighter talents, DeathQuaker. I wasn't aware there was a minority but if the fighter had to be revised (which seems to be what the OP is asking) then I'd like to see something dynamic added to it, not just more static bonuses. Everyone seems to think the two are mutually exclusive. Why not let the fighter keep his existing toys (with a few tweaks) -and- have the nifty limited resource? Nothing he couldn't function without, of course, but something to make him truly shine when he needs to.
Part of my--very personal preference/play style--issue is that I do not always enjoy limited resource pools (For example, I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate HATE grit. Some people hate the gunslinger because it has guns. I just hate grit.) I like that the fighter exists exactly because it is one of the few classes in which I do not have to count points or rounds-per-use-per-day of various things. I do not have to spend six years making sure my character sheet has on it all the permutations of stuff I can spend a "point" on or a "use" of--I can just write down a handful of feats and bonuses and go. Sure, everybody ends up with some once per day stuff or at least gear that has limited uses, but it's still relatively minimal. If people changed the fighter to that, it would be changing precisely what I love the about the fighter.
Do I play classes with limited uses per day features? Of course. I'm in two campaigns--one's with a fighter/ranger (mostly fighter, ranger dip for a couple class skills and a ranger combat feat), one's with a sorcerer (definitely a lot of resource management going on, even if sorcerers get to spam their abilities more often than others). I love both characters, and I would say I have equal amounts of fun playing them. Sorcerer is way harder to play though. I enjoy that I also have the choice to play the less-resource-intensive fighter in the same game system if I want to. I--again, very personally--do not want that choice taken away from me.
I like the talent idea (which was brought up by Ringtail in this thread, to give credit where it's due) because it provides versatility in a way that does not dramatically increase resource management (although even I added some individual limited-use-per-day stuff).
All that said, I do get what you're saying --- make the fighter more versatile and moreover, dynamic, in the way that many other classes are in the game. I understand abstractly why people want to push all of the base classes toward a more unified dynamism in which we spend all day long tracking character resources, because of how it can allow not only broad character customization in a campaign, but customization of what a character can do per session. I just don't personally want that.
Yeah, DQ is right about the fighter. One of the great things about it is that there is very little resource management when playing a fighter. Pretty much just hit points, potions, and ammo. Changing that dynamic would be an extreme change to how the fighter is played.
Yeah, DQ is right about the fighter. One of the great things about it is that there is very little resource management when playing a fighter. Pretty much just hit points, potions, and ammo. Changing that dynamic would be an extreme change to how the fighter is played.
It would definately be a change in how the fighter plays, but I then wonder if its possible for them to be 'balanced' with the classes that DO have those limited resources. If one class only has 'always on' abilities, and the others have 'points' that are a limited resource, then the balance point is the ones with points will always have 'better' things to do with the points.
Eventually you will hit a limit where its no longer reasonable to add to the fighter because he would then be hands down better then everyone else (and its not like the fighter is the only class focused on fighting). Because in the end, if there is no resource to be managed, adding 'talents' isn't going to solve the problem. Those talents have to stay 'worse' then the abilities that cost points for balance's sake.
Instead of point-based resource management, maybe the fighter could work on critical-hit based resource management, kind of like the critical feats.
Instead of point-based resource management, maybe the fighter could work on critical-hit based resource management, kind of like the critical feats.
That is really only effective for fighters that use weapons with a good crit range. You dont want every fighter using a rapier, scimitar or katana do you?
That said, a great starting point for that is The Genius Guide to Feats of Critical Combat. It gives a whole host of options of things to work with crits, including options that are available and work at low levels. I highly recommend you take a look.
I was thinking larger critical multipliers would have larger effects, kind of like the energy burst weapon abilities, to balance out the 18-20/x2 weapons with the 20/x4 weapons, with some kind of scale to make the 19-20/x2 weapons and 20/x3 weapons also balanced.
EDIT:
Or maybe use something like the Dazing Assault or Stunning Assault, where you take a penalty to hit to gain some kind of bonus?
The "fighters should be passive" and the "fighters should be more interesting" camps both seem well-founded to me. I see no reason why there shouldn't be two "fighters," one more like what we have now with a few minor buffs/tweaks (mostly with regard to its non-combat role) and the other more like the Tome of Battle warblade.
Flak, the reason we don't have have two "fighters" is because at the moment of divergence the new thing just becomes a new class entirely. Adding a whole new mechanic is a little too much to make a single archetype out of as well.
DeathQuaker, your points are based on personal preference while the original poster just wanted ways and possible idea as to improve the fighter and rogue in general. I was simply trying to facilitate what Kolokotroni was trying to say as it seemed you either were not getting it or refusing to. I was taking general player appeal into consideration and it seems the majority of players prefer a dynamic system over a static one.
That being said, I do realize the need to have a class that doesn't keep track of things. There is an elegance in its simplicity that should not be disturbed. There should be a class for every playstyle and one of those is wanting to be the consistent character. I'm in your camp, the fighter should stay passive. I was just playing devil's advocate for a moment :P
I would also be curious in learning why you hate(x10) the grit system so much. On another thread or through PMs, of course, as it is off-topic. There are a few things I don't care for (such as the "blast lock" deed and having to pay a grit point to freakin' pistol whip) but I'm alright with it.
Oh! I also had an idea. What if we gave the fighter (and rogue) the ability to do extra things on high skill check results not normally available to other classes. Such as: if a fighter exceeds a certain skill check by 10 or more he can do either X,Y, or Z as well. I think someone said something similar. It could be additional skill-based fighter talents that give you more options with those skills (the phyiscial ones, of course). I agree with everyone who is saying the fighter has too few skill points. What is it about picking up a sword that makes you suck at everything else?
If we don't make his mechanics more dynamic then can we make his performance on the battlefield more dynamic? I think stunt-like fighter talents could be a direction to go in. Once you choose them they are "always on" because they simply enable a new skill or combat option that could be used whenever. Just anything to get them out of the "I stand there and full attack" rut.
Flak, the reason we don't have have two "fighters" is because at the moment of divergence the new thing just becomes a new class entirely.
We already have 18 or so of those in Paizo's rules alone, right? What's wrong with having more classes? :)
Flak, simply put: class bloat. Not everyone is scrambling for new base classes. You'd have to find a different enough niche for them to fill that isn't already covered. If you want to play a primarily martial (or martial-ish) character with a manageable limited resource then I can just point you to the barbarian, paladin, cavalier, gunslinger, magus, monk, samurai, or ninja.
Edit: also, this thread is about improving existing classes, not inventing new ones.
I was working on a Swashbuckler class a while back, and it has a couple class features that might be fun to add to the fighter.
One was a Combat Strike mechanic that causes extra damage if the fighter or its target does a special action or suffers from a specific condition, such as flanking the target or being shaken.
Another feature was special uses of skills and actions, like using the Sleight of Hand skill in place of your CMB to Steal or Disarm, or using the Disarm action and then flinging your opponent's disarmed weapon as a ranged weapon.