Pathfinder 2e Kingdom Building Rules Major Problem 2: Leadership Activities

[VanceMadrox]

Problem Analysis #2:
Even though there are 22 different Leadership Activities the vast majority of them are either not useful enough or too situational to have meaningful choice in how to spend Leadership Actions. To understand this let’s break down the actions into categories:

Situational Actions: These actions are useful but require an opportunity to use them or some form of trigger. This includes all actions that reduce Unrest. Establish Trade Agreement, Hire Adventurers, Infiltration, Pledge of Fealty, Provide Care, Quell Unrest, Recruit Army, Relocate Capital (likely NEVER will be used), Repair Reputation, Rest and Relax, Send Diplomatic Envoy

That’s already a full ½ of our 22 Leadership Activities that are not useful every turn.

Rising Cost Actions: These actions would be useful every kingdom turn but have a significant cost or subsequent increased DCs that make them not useable every kingdom turn: Capital Investment (Costs gp from the party), Celebrate Holiday (Increased DC on subsequent turn), Clandestine Business (Increased DC on subsequent turns)

That leaves only 8 out of 22 Leadership Activities that are useful every turn.
Flat Cost Actions:
These actions are useful and useable every turn but the RP cost limits how many of them you can do in a kingdom turn at lower levels. Craft Luxuries, Creative Solution, Purchase Commodities, Supernatural Solution.
That leaves only 4 that are potentially useful and fully useable 4 times (1 per PC) within a Kingdom turn. These 4 warrant individual consideration.

Prognostication:
Just plain useful and will likely be done every kingdom turn. More than one success in a turn doesn't help though so it won't be done on each PC's turn

Request Foreign Aid:
Useful every round though it's weird it can be repeated freely. Really seems like it should be limited to 1/kingdom turn and have a higher DC on subsequent turns

Create a Masterpiece:
Limited to 1/Kingdom turn. While an extra point of Fame/Infamy is good and this is very useful for low level Kingdoms, it's nearly worthless for high level kingdoms unless you've highly invested in Arts and can get a critical success due to Focused Attention.

Focused Attention:
Conversely to Create a Masterpiece this isn't very useful for a low level kingdom but becomes amazing for a higher level one. This is because unlike every other Leadership Activity, Focused Attention's DC stays flat at 20. It's the Kingdom version of the Pathfinder 2e Aid action. In the Kingdom building rules a Critical Success on any Kingdom roll
gives a point of Fame/Infamy. To crit succeed on a Focused Attention roll you only need to get a 30. For a skill you've invested highly in, by Kingdom level 10 you're Crit Succeeding on Focused Attention rolls more often than not. Focused Attention is far and away the best way to generate Fame/Infamy at higher Kingdom levels.

From the above we can see that there aren’t a whole lot of Leadership Activities that will be useful on any given Kingdom Turn.

[VanceMadrox]

Solution 1: Modified Activities:

Capital Investment: Requiring a Bank means this Activity can’t be used until Level 5 when a Kingdom can Build a bank. Allowing this from the start adds an extra action that can be chosen. Change the requirement from “You must be within the influence of a settlement that contains at least one Bank.” to “You must be in the Capital or within the influence of a settlement that contains at least one Bank.”

Request Foreign Aid: Our change here actually makes it less useful of an Activity but allowing this Activity to be used freely was too strange thematically. Change the text “When disaster strikes, you send out a call for help to another nation with whom you have diplomatic relations. The DC of this check is equal to the other group’s Negotiation DC +2” to “When disaster strikes, you send out a call for help to another nation with whom you have diplomatic relations. The DC of this check starts at the other group’s Negotiation DC +2, but every subsequent Kingdom turn you Request Foreign Aid from the same group, the DC increases by 2. Every Kingdom turn that passes without Requesting Foreign Aid from that Group reduces the DC by 1 (until you reach the other group’s Negotiation DC +2). You may only attempt to request Foreign Aid with a given group once per Kingdom turn regardless of the number of leaders pursuing activities.”

[VanceMadrox]

Solution 2: New Activities:
While adding new Leadership Activities is the obvious way to get more options we were really trying to streamline our changes and not homebrew a whole lot. In the end we decided to create 2 new Leadership Activities.

The first is to fill in a gap we found between the Kingdom Building and Hexploration rule. Currently in Kingdom Building Rules there’s no way to Reconnoiter a Hex but Reconnoitering is required before Claiming a hex. The AP generally assumes the Party will use the Hexploration rules to Reconnoiter hexes but it seems like the Rulers of a Kingdom shouldn’t have to go explore every hex themselves.

Reconnoiter Hex: (Wilderness)
You send a team to spend time surveying and exploring a specific hex, getting the lay of the land and looking for unusual features and specific sites. Spend 1 RP and then attempt a Basic check.
Critical Success: Your team successfully explores the hex and it is now Reconnoitered for the purpose of Claim Hex. Your team automatically finds one Special or Hidden feature if the hex contains one. If the hex contains multiple Special or Hidden Features the GM chooses one. If the hex contains an Encounter or Hazard, the team avoids it and reports back useful and detailed information on it. In addition, your team's reconnaissance of the hex goes so smoothly you may immediately attempt an additional Reconnoiter Hex activity on an adjacent hex. Treat a Critical Success on this additional check as a Success instead
Success: Your team successfully explores the hex and it is now Reconnoitered for the purpose of Claim Hex. If the hex contains a Special feature your team may find it if your GM wishes. If the hex contains an Encounter or Hazard, the team avoids it and reports basic information on it.
Failure: Your team fails to explore the hex sufficiently. If the hex contains an Encounter or Hazard, the team escapes it and reports basic information on it.
Critical Failure: Your team fails to explore the hex sufficiently and a number of the team are lost, causing you to take a -1 circumstance penalty to Loyalty-based checks until the end of your next Kingdom turn. If the hex contains an Encounter or Hazard, the team members were lost to it and the survivors can report back basic information on it.
The second new Leadership Activity is designed to be a simple, always useable, fallback option for when there isn’t any other Activity you want to do. As an added Bonus, it can help the Kingdom grow just a little bit faster at the earliest levels.

Take Charge (Trained) (General Skill Activity):
You spend some time getting directly involved in helping your kingdom. Choose a skill that your Kingdom is at least Trained in, then attempt a basic check. You can never use the same skill for this activity twice in the same Kingdom turn.
Critical Success: Gain 1 RP. In addition you get a +1 Circumstance Bonus to the next Check you make this turn with the chosen skill.
Success: Gain 1 RP
Failure: You fail to generate RP.
Critical Failure: You take a -1 Penalty to the next Check you make this turn with the chosen skill.

[VanceMadrox]

Solution 3: More Social Opportunities
Adding more groups for the Kingdom to interact with socially would help give more choices. This would give more Opportunities to Use Establish Trade Agreement, Infiltration, Pledge of Fealty, and Send Diplomatic Envoy. While we think adding Negotiation DCs for the Brevoy Houses, Mivon, etc is a great idea it’s more of a story thing than it is a mechanical fix so we’re including it here.

[Akjosch]

VanceMadrox wrote:

While adding new Leadership Activities is the obvious way to get more options we were really trying to streamline our changes and not homebrew a whole lot. In the end we decided to create 2 new Leadership Activities.

But you do need to add a lot.

You can Establish Settlement, but you can't Raze Settlement; not even your own.

You can Establish Trade Agreement, but neither you, nor anyone else, can Sabotage Trade Agreement.

You can Quell Unrest, but you can't Incite Unrest, or really do much beyond direct warfare to weaken other kingdoms.

You can Build Roads (and a bridge along the way), but you can't Demolish Roads (or even destroy that pesky bridge).

The list goes on and on ...

[VanceMadrox]

All of those things would be nice to have but seem like they'd fit better in the Warfare rules than the Kingdom Building structure.

If you decide to create new Kingdom Skill Activities for them though please share them here!

[FWCain]

Akjosch wrote:

You can Establish Settlement, but you can't Raze Settlement; not even your own.

That would be Demolish, used many times over many Turns, once for each Building/Structure in that Settlement. ^_^ #joke

Actually, more seriously, I would put that into the Appendix on Warfare.

Akjosch wrote:

You can Build Roads (and a bridge along the way), but you can't Demolish Roads (or even destroy that pesky bridge).

You want the "Clear Hex" activity, seriously.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=1374 wrote:

If you're trying to prepare a hex for a settlement or demolish an improvement you previously built (or that was already present in the hex) . . . attempt a basic Engineering check.

(snip)

Regardless of the skill used, increase the basic DC by 2 if the hex to be cleared is not yet part of your kingdom.

#Sherman_vs_Atlanta, #for_the_win ;-)

As a GM, I would insist that you have one of your own armies in that enemy hex, before letting you do this. Or else, in a hex between this one and the nearest enemy army. (Just to keep control of that enemy hex long enough to do your business.)

Hope this helps!
Franklin

[Akjosch]

I actually totally missed the "Clear Hex" part, because "clearing" is kinda the opposite of what you want to do when you're doing a scorched earth campaign and breaking up infrastructure.

Which brings another issue: since "improvement" isn't a game-mechanical term, if the road counts as one for the purpose of "Clear Hex" is a matter of interpretation, not rules. That's in contrast to the Bridge, which the rules lists along other terrain features (again, not a clearly defined game-mechanical term) as being able to be removed with Clear Hex.

[VanceMadrox]

We actually clarified Terrain features in our fixes too.

I'll put that in a new thread.

[FWCain]

VanceMadrox wrote:

Take Charge (Trained) (General Skill Activity):

(snip)
You can never use the same skill for this activity twice in the same Kingdom turn.

Is that "You" the PLAYER (Leader)? Or the Kingdom as a whole?

Thanks,
Franklin

[FWCain]

I hate to be a party-pooper, but your new Activity "Reconnoiter Hex" seems far more to be a Region Activity, and not a Leadership one.

Clearing a hex, claiming a hex, building something within a hex (farms; work sites; roads; a new settlement) -- all of those are Region Activities.

Franklin

[VanceMadrox]

FWCain wrote:

VanceMadrox wrote:

Take Charge (Trained) (General Skill Activity):

(snip)
You can never use the same skill for this activity twice in the same Kingdom turn.

Is that "You" the PLAYER (Leader)? Or the Kingdom as a whole?

Thanks,
Franklin

It's intended to be that the same skill can't be used more than once in a single Kingdom turn.

[VanceMadrox]

FWCain wrote:

I hate to be a party-pooper, but your new Activity "Reconnoiter Hex" seems far more to be a Region Activity, and not a Leadership one.

Clearing a hex, claiming a hex, building something within a hex (farms; work sites; roads; a new settlement) -- all of those are Region Activities.

Franklin

All of the Region Activities you've listed are ones where you're actually doing something to the Hex itself.

Reconnoiter Hex is sending out a group of people to explore the hex for you, nothing about the Hex itself is changed. It's organizing people, not a physical change to a Hex. So while you could make it a Regional Activity if you wanted to, being a Leadership Activity works just fine.

[Chris_Fougere]

Maybe it's just me but I'm fine with there being Kingdom turns where Leadership activities are few or even non-existent. I 100% appreciate that they are there for when they are needed but you're not going to need them all every turn and that's fine too.

I guess it depends on what your goal is. Mine would be do the Kingdom turns as fully as possible but not at the expense of time spent RP-ing and adventuring.

[VanceMadrox]

Chris_Fougere wrote:

Maybe it's just me but I'm fine with there being Kingdom turns where Leadership activities are few or even non-existent. I 100% appreciate that they are there for when they are needed but you're not going to need them all every turn and that's fine too.

I guess it depends on what your goal is. Mine would be do the Kingdom turns as fully as possible but not at the expense of time spent RP-ing and adventuring.

If you're fine with not having useful options for some Leadership actions then you can ignore this problem! In our sims though we found it felt bad to have wasted actionss.

The nice thing about all of our fixes is any given group is welcome to pick and choose what to use.

I also highly recommend doing most Kingdom Turns between sessions, outside of normal play.

[Chris_Fougere]

VanceMadrox wrote:

I also highly recommend doing most Kingdom Turns between sessions, outside of normal play.

Our current plan is to do a couple of things.

1. Our first few we'll do "live" so if any people have questions we can figure things out.

2. We'll be doing several Kingdom turns at a time. I've already explained to the players that when we get to that stage the game will not be a day to day life simulator. It may be weeks, months or even years between "adventures".

[FWCain]

VanceMadrox wrote:

Reconnoiter Hex is sending out a group of people to explore the hex for you, nothing about the Hex itself is changed. It's organizing people, not a physical change to a Hex.

Sounds like you are comparing your new Activity more with Hire Adventurers than the other Activities that I had mentioned. That seems fair, also.

My other concern (one I did not remember to specifically mention in my previous post) is one of timing. By lumping your new Activity into the Region category, that prevents a kingdom from mapping a hex and then annexing it in the same Turn. Your way, the kingdom could have the hex mapped in the Leadership step, and then either Claim the Hex or else Clear the Hex (if needed) in the Region step, but both within the same Turn.

Now, if the PCs decided to explore and/or clear the hex themselves that "Turn" (i.e. that month, before doing kingdom stuff), then, yeah, they could also map, clear, and then claim this hex all in the same turn. So, my second concern isn't a major one, but I still wanted to toss it out there for examination.

Thanks!
Franklin

[VanceMadrox]

I'm ok with that being a possibility. I don't see any real issues there.

If you don't want that you can also fix it just by adding text to Reconnoiter Hex saying that you have to wait a turn before trying to Claim it.

[valdis43]

I'm looking through the changes you made. One thing I want to do is to reduce the number of steps involved in going through a kingdom turn. Would it cause any problems to move the activities: improve lifestyle, tap treasury, trade commodities and manage trade agreements from phases in the commerce section to leadership activities. That simplifies commerce enormously and I don't see how any of these could be particularly abused. Also, that gives you a few more leadership activities to pick.

[VanceMadrox]

Collect Taxes, and Improve Lifestyle would need to be limited to 1/Kingdom turn but beyond that should be fine, Celebrate Holiday is similar and already a Leadership activity.

Tap Treasury and Manage Trade agreements should probably have the 1/Kingdom Turn too but I think they'd be fine as Leadership activities.

Trade Commodities as a Leadership activity allows you to Purchase Commodities and sell them the same turn. I don't think I'd make Trade Commodities a Leadership activity. You could move it into the Upkeep/Resources Phase though.

[Willowmoon]

Thanks for all of this Vance. I’ve been following your posts about the five problems and have incorporated some of these into my game.

I’m curious, is your intent to suggest all of the solutions combined to solve this problem, or do you suggest picking just one of them?

[VanceMadrox]

Well if you're using milestone Kingdom leveling then2 of the 5 aren't even problems really.

Our intent was to use everything together but as always each GM can choose to use whatever they'd like.