Why is there even a discussion about tiers ?

[Threatened]

I don't understand the way this tier system is working. I just read the definition, and it seems to be widely accepted that a wizard, for instance, will be leagues away from a fighter in terms of both power and versatility.

If you look at the raw datas, that's totally correct. A wizard can fly, become invisible, turn into powerful monsters and even stop time.

However, if we're excluding the last levels and epic campaigns (which are a different subject altogether), it seems to me that almost every single magic aspect can be emulated by magic items.

While the wizard spends his hard-earned gold in scrolls and powerful robes, the fighter can quite cheaply (if we're talking from midgame perspective) get the following abilities from potions: fly, invisibility,

He can also get true seeing from a gem, teleportation from boots or helm, spell resistance from a cloak, and even planeshift if he wants to.

Of course, he won't be able to do absolutely everything. But a high-level non-wizard usually has means to fly, for instance, if only from a potion.

So here are the three situations that arise when people talk about tiers:

Quote:

Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare

Situation 1: Potion of fly and/or invisibility. Get to dragon, kill him.

Situation 2: Circlet of diplomacy, knight's pennon, scroll of charm person with UMD level 21

Situation 3: The high-level fighter can probably deal with 1000+ orcs all by himself.

Are you less flexible than a wizard ? Probably. Are you more efficient than him in some situations ? Probably. Are you able to deal with your shortcomings with potions, items and scrolls ? Probably.

[ShadowcatX]

Saying "Well a fighter can spend money to do everything the wizard can almost as well as the wizard can do it" isn't really saying anything at all. We all know potions exist, that scrolls can be UMD ed into worked,

Tiers are instead about actual class abilities. That's it. A fighter with unlimited gold can duplicate some of the wizard's tricks, but that's a function of gold not of being a fighter, a commoner can do the same thing.

Examining your 3 situations only in light of class abilities we get:

1: Fighter gets climb as a class skill. Hope he doesn't mind fighting the dragon without armor, or has a high enough score (with his mighty 2 skill point a level) that he can climb the mountain without failing in his armor. The dragon definitely hears him and either flies away or prepares for him with buffs and then eats him.

Wizard summons an army of minions and they vanquish the dragon while the wizard sits safely in an inn flirting with the hired help.

Advantage 1 - 0, wizard.

2: Fighter has absolutely no class abilities that help him. Wizard teleports in, casts dominate person, and is home in time that everyone else just things he was using the rest room.

Advantage 2 - 0, wizard.

3: Fighter murders the orcs. Wizard murders the orcs.

Advantage 3 - 1, wizard.

It also needs to be pointed out, the tiers are not about power. Fighter is a powerful class, in combat. It just can't do much else.

[wraithstrike]

The Tier discussion does not mean the caster is always better. Those situations are not the only ones. There is a long thread, actually 2 long thread on the subject. There are more thread on it at the gaming den which is another forum.

These is also a thread that is going on right now that talks about the issue, but it does not use the term "tier".

Basically it discuss why these things take place. A lot of it has to do with a GM runs his games.

Link to thread

[LazarX]

ShadowcatX wrote:

Saying "Well a fighter can spend money to do everything the wizard can almost as well as the wizard can do it" isn't really saying anything at all. We all know potions exist, that scrolls can be UMD ed into worked,

Tiers are instead about actual class abilities. That's it. A fighter with unlimited gold can duplicate some of the wizard's tricks, but that's a function of gold not of being a fighter, a commoner can do the same thing.

Commoners however are going to have extreme problems in getting the gold the fighter is spending to pull his tricks off.