Build Advice: Maneuver Master Trip Monk


Advice

Shadow Lodge

Hello All,

I'm looking for a little advice on a trip monk I'm playing around with for PFS.

Admittedly, it's a little min-maxy at the moment, but that was me simply trying to see what I could accomplish with a Maneuver Master monk. The main role would be second line support (protect the casters/isolating stray mooks) or dashing over and locking down bosses.

Trip Monk:
Human Monk
Maneuver Master/Weapon Adept/Qinggong Monk 6
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STATISTICS
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Str 11
Dex 21 (+2 Human, +1 @ 4th)
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 14
Cha 7

1 Perfect Strike (monk)
1 Improved Trip (monk)
1 Agile Maneuvers (human)
1 Weapon Finesse
2 Weapon Focus: Kama (monk)
2 Combat Reflexes (monk)
3 Maneuver Training (monk)
3 Fury's Fall (+Dex to Trip CMB)
4 Reliable Maneuver (monk) (1 ki: use better of 2 rolls for check)
5 Meditative Maneuver (monk) (1 ki: add Wis to CMB)
5 Barkskin or Scorching Ray (Qinggong swap)
5 Ki Throw
6 Weapon Specialization: Kama (monk)
6 Greater Trip (monk)

At level 6:
+26 to Trip / +28 if using Meditative Maneuver
(Greater Trip + Agile Maneuvers + Fury's Fall + Weapon Finesse + Maneuver Training + Weapon Focus)
(4 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 6 + 1 = 26)

Since I'm dumping my Int, the only way for me to get Greater Trip is to push to level 6 in where I get it as a bonus monk feat. Since the kama will be my trip weapon of choice, I figured I might as well take the Weapon Adept archetype for the tiny little +1 bonus from Weapon Focus to add to my CMB trip.

So, my questions/concerns:
I'll be a trip machine but won't have much territorial control or dps. Should I be looking at Lunge or Vicious Stomp?

After level 6, I'm thinking of adding 5 levels of another class to open up the character some (PFS caps out at 11). Maybe Brawler for more control/dps feats? Or Ninja to be sneaky and get Sneak Attack damage on prone targets (and do things like vanish and pop up next to boss)? Any thoughts?

Dark Archive

Why are you taking Agile Manoeuvres? Weapon Finesse is all you need to trip.

I would take a look at this feat if you can fit it in, it's pretty neat:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/disorienting-maneuver

Since your dexterity will be high anyway, you'll have a great Acrobatics score. That +4 to trip will be a boon for sure.

Shadow Lodge

Hey, Mergy!

I took Agile Maneuvers to stack the CMB -- I'm not as familiar with monster CMDs in the mid- to upper-levels. I used the random sampling from the Trip Build Guide that had the following:

Quote:

CR8

Dire Tiger 35; Efreeti 31; Gorgon 26; Intellect Devourer 26; Mohrg 30; Stone Giant 30; Treant 29

CR9
Mastadon 34; Bone Devil 31; Dire Crocodile 40; Dragon Turtle 36; Frost Giant 29; Night Hag 27

CR10
Bebilith 46; Clay Golem 30; Fire Giant 31; Rakshasa 29

CR11
Barbed Devil 34; Cauchemar 40; Devourer 33; Retriever 40; Stone Golem 33

CR12
Lich 25; Adult Copper Dragon 38; Adult Green Dragon 39

As for Disorienting Maneuver vs Agile Maneuvers--DM has a pre-req feat (Dodge) and gives a static bonus (+2 or +4 to trip CMB only) whereas AM is a single feat that scales with my Dex as I pump it AND it affects all my CMBs, not just trip. Since I'm already starting out at 20 Dex (+5), I actually go down 1 point using DM to trip vs AM to trip.

So, AM is a cheaper feat investment (1 vs 2) and it provides a scaling bonus across ALL potential maneuvers.

Dark Archive

Agile Manoeuvres doesn't stack with Weapon Finesse, however, as far as tripping your opponent goes.

Shadow Lodge

Ah! Thanks, Mergy! That opens up a slot early on. Something to think about!

Scarab Sages

I like the idea of adding Lunge or perhaps Stand Still.


Sammy T wrote:


Since I'm dumping my Int, the only way for me to get Greater Trip is to push to level 6 in where I get it as a bonus monk feat.

Well you could go with two levels of fighter (lore warden) and pick up Combat Expertise there as well as 2 fighter feats. You might consider butterfly's sting as your crits won't matter much in terms of damage.. but it can be deadly when paired with a big hitter.

Considering that you will get perfect strike you can crit more often as well. Speaking of which getting 3 dice at 10th level is sick. You might consider Monk10/ftr2 for a level breakdown.. though ftr3 of lore warden is very nice as well.

You might also consider some of the exotic monk weapons.. Double-chained kama seems very nice. I'm not sure how to read weapon adept in regards to 'monk weapons' there to see if you might pick up proficiency there as well.. likely not, but an interesting question.

For Qinggong monk.. might I suggest Ki Stand? It eats a swift action, but gives you options if you are tripped.

For vicious stomp.. how is that going to help you when you are getting greater trip? It's the same provocation so you wouldn't get 2 AOOs for it.

You might consider picking up another improved maneuver, likely one that normally requires a standard action to use.. say dirty trick?

-James

Dark Archive

Even with Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, he'll still need a 13 intellect to get Greater Trip. The feat doesn't stop needing the base prerequisite just because it's higher up the chain.

I would recommend trying to balance out your point buy if you don't want to do 6 monk levels.

If you go with 2 levels of manoeuvre master and the rest lore warden (a build that I'm currently looking into putting into PFS), I would recommend the stat spread:

Str 12 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 7

With that all you need is a headband to give +2 intellect by the time you get up to 7th level. Another alternative is to drop the strength to 11 and have no need for a magical item. Your BAB will be better and the lore warden has a really nice boost to CMB and CMD.

Shadow Lodge

james maissen wrote:
Well you could go with two levels of fighter (lore warden) and pick up Combat Expertise there as well as 2 fighter feats. You might consider butterfly's sting as your crits won't matter much in terms of damage.. but it can be deadly when paired with a big hitter.

One of my potential mixes I was thinking about was Monk 6/ Lorewarden 5. I'd never heard of Butterfly's Sting until now--very interesting. Thanks for mentioning it!

Quote:
You might also consider some of the exotic monk weapons.. Double-chained kama seems very nice. I'm not sure how to read weapon adept in regards to 'monk weapons' there to see if you might pick up proficiency there as well.. likely not, but an interesting question.

Sadly, I'd have to burn an exotic weapon feat for it.

Monks are proficient with the brass knuckles, cestus, club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, shuriken, siangham, sling, spear and temple sword.

Quote:

FAQ:

Monk Weapons: If a weapon is specified as a monk weapon, does that mean that monks are automatically proficient with that weapon?

No. It means that they can use this weapon while using flurry of blows. It does not mean that it is added to the list of weapons that a monk is proficient with, unless the weapon description says otherwise.

Quote:
For vicious stomp.. how is that going to help you when you are getting greater trip? It's the same provocation so you wouldn't get 2 AOOs for it.

That's what we're discussing in this thread.


Mergy wrote:

Even with Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, he'll still need a 13 intellect to get Greater Trip. The feat doesn't stop needing the base prerequisite just because it's higher up the chain.

You are correct, but for the wrong reason.

The feat itself specifies requiring an INT of 13+. But if it only required Combat Expertise and Improved Trip then you wouldn't need it for greater even though both feats it would require specify INT 13+.

But that's moot as it does specify 13INT+.. guess I missed that. Mea culpa. Still using the 6th level Monk feat for that isn't problematic.

-James

Sczarni

Would it be worth taking exotic weapon profiency in the fauchard or martial weapon proficiency in the horsechopper or other reach/trip weapon?

You could go with a strength build and get 1.5 x STR damage in the event you want to attack for damage.

Of course a single level in lore warden would get you any martial reach/trip weapon.


I had a similar build I was working on by the way that all of the similar tactics. I would recommend taking a look at it.

I'd call it a work in progress but I'm pretty much done with the build itself. The rest is really just equipment which is hard to plan for in most games. That and the choice between Vanaran and Human. For me it is a toss up.


maneuver master allows you to choose an "improved" feat in adition to normal monk bonus feat choices. i dont think its gives you and extra feat all together. it just sounds to me like really bad wording.

Shadow Lodge

truesidekick wrote:
maneuver master allows you to choose an "improved" feat in adition to normal monk bonus feat choices. i dont think its gives you and extra feat all together. it just sounds to me like really bad wording.

Sorry for any confusion--Improved Trip is the level 1 bonus Monk feat I chose and Perfect Strike automatically replaces Stunning Fist as part of the Weapon Adept archetype!

Shadow Lodge

Daryl MacLeod wrote:
Would it be worth taking exotic weapon profiency in the fauchard or martial weapon proficiency in the horsechopper or other reach/trip weapon?

If I decide to go with additional levels of Lore Warden, which I'm definitely leaning towards, having a back up reach/trip weapon is a good idea. However, that means I'd have to pick up Agile Maneuvers to make up for the loss of +Dex to CMB I'd normally have with my Weapon Finessed kama. Then again, I'd have plenty of feats to burn as a fighter...

Dark Archive

To be perfectly honest, I hate finesse builds. I think it's a waste of feats for a not-too-great benefit. If you had a high strength you wouldn't have any of this indecision.


I agree with the str > Dex idea. Don't have to burn feats, have the option of damage with all weapons, incidentals (carrying capacity, etc.)

No to get too far off topic, but I favored the idea of a toothy half orc barb/lore warden using a horsechopper. Plenty of reach, trip weapon, when they come inside reach, use the bite attack.


My suggestion for a MM monk build that can help control enemy's

Monk Bonus Feat lvl 01 = Improved Trip
Monk Bonus Feat lvl 02 = Improved Bull Rush
Monk Bonus Feat lvl 06 = Greater Trip
Monk Bonus Feat lvl 10 = Greater Grapple

lvl 1 feat = Fury's Fall
lvl 3 feat = Improve Grapple
lvl 5 feat = Ki Throw
lvl 7 feat = Improved Ki Throw
lvl 9 feat = Binding Throw

So in the end you will run up Trip - Bull Rush into any adjacent enemy's, both of them fall prone and then you swift action to grapple your original target making them helpless.

Liberty's Edge

Pretty sure there is feat that allows both Dex and Str to be used for tripping, so high in both stats is good. (I think Robby mentioned it above -Fury's Fall)
I have a Tripping Monk in PFS, I went with Flowing, Stalwart Quingong Monk I think. You become immune to being knocked over when in one place, AC bonuses, immediate trip action X times per day. It's pretty solid.

He also has the ability to make an AoO against an opponent who falls (it's a feat that lets you stomp after tripping) with high Dex and COmbat Reflexes it's good.

I believe he has also gone with Dragon Style so that he can pack a reasonable punch too for when rippingisn't viable.

Essentially you move, trip, stomp for damage on your turn. On their turn another mob attacks, you redirect trip, stomp. If I remember rightly, when the mob gets up you can AoO to rip again (I think, been awhile since I played him). If a mob cannot be tripped you just Flurry with Dragon Style which, with 18 Str hits decently

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