Auditing question

[Matthew Morris]

Good morning gents, I've a question about auditing.

Rey has survived 5 scenarios so far, and I've been using herolab and my mini. Now after every scenario I just down in the "XP journal" section of Herolab what he used, what he bought, gold earned etc etc. So you can see he bought his darkwood club after Silent tide, used a potion of cure light wounds and mage armor after Hydra's fang, etc etc.

Now here's the rub. I've not written this stuff on his Chronicle sheets. How many judges/VCs would have coniption fits if I had just the sheets and the prints of the XP logs from Herolab?

Yeah, I can do it after the fact, but just gathering opinions.

The comments about tired judges after a con got me thinking (also playing saturday I don't want any bad feelings from a new group about Rey if he's 'technically legal but not kosher').

Aside, yes I know if I lose the file I'm screwed. I have Rey on both the laptop and the mini, and two flash drives. If I lose all of those, I've bigger problems than a Pathfinder Society Character's legality.

[cblome59]

Yeah it needs to be on the sheets. Luckily you've been good about keeping the notes.

I do the same as you only put it on the chronicles as well. HeroLab actually pointed out where I'd goofed on a few gold calculations.

I personally would be okay if you kept a printed copy of the HeroLab journal with your character sheets, but that seems like unnecessary clutter.

The issue really comes down to the idea that when it matters, only the Chronicles actually count. It doesn't matter what is reported to Paizo, or frankly anything else, those sheets are the last line of defense.

[Dan Luckett]

Clint Blome wrote:

Yeah it needs to be on the sheets. Luckily you've been good about keeping the notes.

I do the same as you only put it on the chronicles as well. HeroLab actually pointed out where I'd goofed on a few gold calculations.

I personally would be okay if you kept a printed copy of the HeroLab journal with your character sheets, but that seems like unnecessary clutter.

The issue really comes down to the idea that when it matters, only the Chronicles actually count. It doesn't matter what is reported to Paizo, or frankly anything else, those sheets are the last line of defense.

+1: Exactly what I was thinking.

[WelbyBumpus]

Put it on your chronicles.

I don't like Herolab, I don't use it, and I don't trust it (it makes far too many mistakes to be useful, IMO). If a player told me "I keep track of all my gold, items, and spending in Herolab" they might as well be telling me "All my notes are in my vault on the Moon." Doesn't matter to me--show me on your chronicles. Use whatever program you like to help you with the math, but show it all on your chronicles.

[Dragnmoon]

WelbyBumpus wrote:

I don't like Herolab, I don't use it, and I don't trust it (it makes far too many mistakes to be useful, IMO).

This is rarely true anymore, most mistakes now are user based.

[Jiggy]

Dragnmoon wrote:

WelbyBumpus wrote:

I don't like Herolab, I don't use it, and I don't trust it (it makes far too many mistakes to be useful, IMO).

This is rarely true anymore, most mistakes now are user based.

Still, mistakes/glitches crop up from time to time. Which isn't really an issue until people trust it too much and don't investigate suspicious results on their characters.

I think HeroLabs should be used as a convenience, to be verified by hand. But that's just me, and I have most of my characters' stats memorized. YMMV.

[caubocalypse]

I don't personally use Hero Lab for anything other than creating my characters. I actually have an Excel spreadsheet where I tabulate all my gp expenditures, consumable item uses, etc. HL does some pretty wonky accounting sometimes (I don't know if they ever got the pricing of arrows fixed), but I remember comparing the value of everything I own on Excel to HL, and HL thinks I have more worth than I actually have, despite going down the list and noting I have a 1-for-1 match.

That being said, make sure it is on your chronicle sheets and you are bringing them with you. I have called out players before on not having things written down. And make sure it is in pen too. Technically, your character does not own anything unless its written down on the sheets, and your character is not of the level you say he is if you do not carry all the chronicles with you. I don't mind some purchases being taken care of later though (because I know I like to check and re-check the amounts at home and let Excel take care of the cost calculations for me before I write it all down). Just make sure to have it all with you because any GM / event coordinator is well within their right to ask for the information in a non-HL format (it'd be a different story if HL was the official character generator / tracker for PFS, but it is not and I doubt you will ever see that be the case).

[Jiggy]

I keep each character's sheet in a plastic sleeve. In back I have a list of consumable inventory. When I use something, I mark it off on the sleeve with a dry erase marker. Then at the end when I get my chronicle, I immediately buy replacements for whatever I used, and wipe off the line-outs. I'm really liking that as a system so far.

[Matthew Morris]

Thank you kindly, Gentlemen.

[godsDMit]

Whatever consumables I use, I do note on the character sheet itself, but not on the chronicle. I know I probably should, but I know Im being honest about it. I do note the purchase of consumables on the chronicle though, obviously.

[Jason S]

I personally wouldn't allow someone to use an item that wasn't purchased on their chronicles. YMMV.

As an aside, the player honor system doesn't really work with consumables imo. In my experience, you can see the same guy chugging down his potion of enlarge person (of which he only bought one), but how often does he replace it? Never in my experience. It's like a once a use per scenario item. Same thing with alchemy fire, sunrods, etc.

In my home game, I have to mercilessly track and basically write that crap into their chronicles for them to have that expense included (I assume it's replaced). I there was an easier way, on the chronicles, to track used consumables.

[Lab_Rat]

I use herolab for tracking my characters too and agree with the fact that most errors are user fault. However, I keep detailed chronicles because when it comes down to it, those are your only official tracking method.

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Yep, when it comes down to it, as helpful and convenient as Herolab may be, by itself is it not a legal source for PFS, approved for use, but not legal. Besides, I thought all those expenditures and uses of items not only had to be written on your chronicle, but also initialed by the GM, aside from only being able to buy stuff in the presence of a GM to begin with.

Quote:

A GM must be present in order for you to purchase items, so you may only purchase items during or after a scenario.

What were you writing your purchases on, if not on your chronicle sheet?

[Matthew Morris]

Jason S wrote:

I personally wouldn't allow someone to use an item that wasn't purchased on their chronicles. YMMV.

As an aside, the player honor system doesn't really work with consumables imo. In my experience, you can see the same guy chugging down his potion of enlarge person (of which he only bought one), but how often does he replace it? Never in my experience. It's like a once a use per scenario item. Same thing with alchemy fire, sunrods, etc.

In my home game, I have to mercilessly track and basically write that crap into their chronicles for them to have that expense included (I assume it's replaced). I there was an easier way, on the chronicles, to track used consumables.

Really? I'm pedantic about that.

[nosig]

Jason S wrote:

I personally wouldn't allow someone to use an item that wasn't purchased on their chronicles. YMMV.

As an aside, the player honor system doesn't really work with consumables imo. In my experience, you can see the same guy chugging down his potion of enlarge person (of which he only bought one), but how often does he replace it? Never in my experience. It's like a once a use per scenario item. Same thing with alchemy fire, sunrods, etc.

In my home game, I have to mercilessly track and basically write that crap into their chronicles for them to have that expense included (I assume it's replaced). I there was an easier way, on the chronicles, to track used consumables.

Perhaps I do not understand your above post.

For example, I have a character that has a sunrod (actually has 3...) and when he uses one, I will note it (like Jiggy does above - a line on a plastic cover) and after the current adventure I will buy a replacement. I can look back at his ARs and tell you which ones were "in the dark" by the note "sunrod - 2gp" in his equipment bought. But I don't change his equipment sheet. I do not errase the 3, mark it 2, re-errase the 2 and change it back to a 3.

I have a Cleric that now casts Continual Flame at the start of each mod. I can tell when he started this practice, cause each AR sense then has "Cont. Flame Comp. = 50gp" in the bought area of the AR.

Have I seen people who don't track thier consumables? sure, just like the guy who trys to buy "Death Blade" Poison, and cheats on his dice rolls. I avoid playing with him.

So the Honor system works as well as any other. IMHO.

[nosig]

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:

Yep, when it comes down to it, as helpful and convenient as Herolab may be, by itself is it not a legal source for PFS, approved for use, but not legal. Besides, I thought all those expenditures and uses of items not only had to be written on your chronicle, but also initialed by the GM, aside from only being able to buy stuff in the presence of a GM to begin with.

Quote:

A GM must be present in order for you to purchase items, so you may only purchase items during or after a scenario.

What were you writing your purchases on, if not on your chronicle sheet?

Normally, coming into a scenario I will have a sticky note with things to buy (if there is time) before the action starts. this gets listed to the AR at the end of the game. I don't get the Judge to initial each line of my AR... goodness, he has enough to do just filling in the blanks he has to now!

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I think the initialing thing is more of a holdover from earlier versions of the Guide, as I can't find mention of doing that in the recent Guides.

This was also aimed more at Matthew, since he had said he never writes any of this on his chronicle sheets.

[TwoWolves]

I too use HeroLab as a sort of lab/workshop and back-up, filling out the journal entries to include everything on the chronicle sheet sometime after I finish the scenario/con. But I keep everything on my character sheet (which is hand written, not a printout) and my chronicle sheets. HL has also shown me some gp mistakes I've made in the heat of a convention.

[Jason S]

nosig wrote:

I can look back at his ARs and tell you which ones were "in the dark" by the note "sunrod - 2gp" in his equipment bought. But I don't change his equipment sheet. I do not errase the 3, mark it 2, re-errase the 2 and change it back to a 3.

You don't have to, because I'm assuming you replace everything used by re-purchasing items on your chronicle sheet. I feel many players don't do this.

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread. Chronicle sheet trumps everything imo. If it's not on there, you didn't buy it.

[Alexander_Damocles]

I must say, i've neglected to put things on my sheets as I go along. What would the best option be to make my main character a properly vetted character?

[Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome]

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

I must say, i've neglected to put things on my sheets as I go along. What would the best option be to make my main character a properly vetted character?

go back and put things on your character sheets lol

[nosig]

or buy them again.
I've had more than one character with equipment bought twice. Sitting at a table and saying, "hay, I have an extra (insert item), anyone need to borrow one?" Not so much with consumables - though even with those sometimes I'll lone them out (and buy replacements).

[Jiggy]

I was once sorting through my 6th level (at the time) fighter's chronicle sheets and discovered that I had at some point purchased two scrolls of shield. I still don't know why.

[WelbyBumpus]

Jiggy wrote:

Still, mistakes/glitches crop up from time to time. Which isn't really an issue until people trust it too much and don't investigate suspicious results on their characters.

I think HeroLabs should be used as a convenience, to be verified by hand. But that's just me, and I have most of my characters' stats memorized. YMMV.

My thoughts, too, Jiggy. I'm not going to tell anyone not to use Herolab, but it's just a convenience and shouldn't replace chronicles for item/gold tracking.

[Jiggy]

I also won't accept "hey, that's what HeroLabs put out" when I'm GMing and ask my player why X is so high/low.

[WalterGM]

Jiggy wrote:

I keep each character's sheet in a plastic sleeve. In back I have a list of consumable inventory. When I use something, I mark it off on the sleeve with a dry erase marker. Then at the end when I get my chronicle, I immediately buy replacements for whatever I used, and wipe off the line-outs. I'm really liking that as a system so far.

Oh Jiggy, a hardly know you. I do the *exact* same thing :)

[nosig]

WalterGM wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

I keep each character's sheet in a plastic sleeve. In back I have a list of consumable inventory. When I use something, I mark it off on the sleeve with a dry erase marker. Then at the end when I get my chronicle, I immediately buy replacements for whatever I used, and wipe off the line-outs. I'm really liking that as a system so far.

Oh Jiggy, a hardly know you. I do the *exact* same thing :)

other than the fact that I use a Vis-Vis wet erase marker, I've done the same thing sense... ah, battle tech days. Back when photo-copies cost a dime... ah, a photo-copier is sort of like a scanner & printer in one, but you had to... oh never mind. Now I feel really old again.

[Thod]

The advantages / disadvantages of HeroLab

In regard to stats I have seldom seen HeroLab go wrong.

In regard to gold - keep it on your sheet.

Reasons:
Consumables - you tend to lose track unless you have a laptop open while gaming and take them out while you use them.
You can keep notes in the journals - but it is cumbersome and even more work as doing it on the chronicle. If you don't then there is no way to check out what happened 5 scenarios ago.
There are several ways to get items 'free' on HeroLab. If you buy Masterwork or magic items then you have to use the 'set' button or it defaults to zero. Same with buying multiple items. You have to press the 'set' button or you get it for the price of 1 item. So honest mistakes are very, very common. If you don't keep extra book-keeping what you bought when and where then the chance is that eventually it just won't be correct.

Having said this - I still like HeroLab for everything else and it gives you a handy total of all items which is good for a quick check if the overall amount is in the right ball-park.

[TetsujinOni]

I have to weigh in with this thought on very detailed consumable consumption tracking: There's neither enough time between slots in convention or site-closing scenarios, nor enough space on chronicles for this. If we're doing this then we need to return to the LG style Item Log Sheet record sheets....

What, we don't want to do that? Summarized expenses for "replacement ammo" and "replacement alchemicals", the GeekIndustrialComplex worksheet PDFs, tracking the big consumables (like the pots of enlarge, or fly, or.... pick your poison) and using nonconsumables by preference (I buy ioun torches (sometimes multiple per character) rather than sun rods because the GP cost is low compared to the aggravation cost of tracking replacing the consumable....)

Even the lawful evil can be lazy...

[teribithia9]

I actually use an old LG item tracking sheet to keep track of expendables. But I do write everything that I buy on my chronicle.

[Callarek]

Jiggy wrote:

I also won't accept "hey, that's what HeroLabs put out" when I'm GMing and ask my player why X is so high/low.

I check my totals against what HL gives me, and, the few times HL is wrong, it is usually lower than the actual total should be.

Just had that happen for my 11th level PC for The Ruby Phoenix Tournament, as HL wasn't including the luck bonus an enhancement on his weapon was supposed to give for CMB for certain maneuvers...