Is a summoned tyrannosaurus overpowered?

[David knott 242]

Okay -- I have been playing a summoner up to 8th level, and so far all of the summons on the Summon Monster I-IV lists have proven to be relatively unimpressive in combat. For those who have played to higher levels, is there a point at which the summoned monsters go from "meh" to "OMG WTF was that"?

[warren Burgess]

Grenouillebleue wrote:

Of course, if your group has NO CASTER AT ALL, summoned monsters will always be a problem.

If you have ANY KIND OF CASTER, the T-rex should be nothing more than a nuisance.

Do your opponents have a druid ?
- Hold animal
- Dominate animal (because that's fun).
- Pup Shape (because a Small T-rex with shiny little eyes trying to grapple you is so CUTE)

Do your opponents have a cleric/oracle ?
- Control Summoned creature (mwhahah)
- Hold Monster

Do your opponents have a wizard ?
- Any kind of SoS spell (Baleful polymorph is fun)

These are only a couple options.

Don't Forget the Protection from (Evil/Good/chaos/Law) spell against summoned monster it is an powerful defense

[shallowsoul]

Grenouillebleue wrote:

Of course, if your group has NO CASTER AT ALL, summoned monsters will always be a problem.

If you have ANY KIND OF CASTER, the T-rex should be nothing more than a nuisance.

Do your opponents have a druid ?
- Hold animal
- Dominate animal (because that's fun).
- Pup Shape (because a Small T-rex with shiny little eyes trying to grapple you is so CUTE)

Do your opponents have a cleric/oracle ?
- Control Summoned creature (mwhahah)
- Hold Monster

Do your opponents have a wizard ?
- Any kind of SoS spell (Baleful polymorph is fun)

These are only a couple options.

Hold Animal, Dominate Animal, or Pup Shape will not work on a Summoned T-Rex because it is considered an outsider and not an animal.

[shallowsoul]

amethal wrote:

This thread has got me wondering what happens if a gargantuan T Rex tries to swallow a huge water elemental. Does it drown?

I'd probably rule that there are some things even a T Rex won't swallow!

As has been pointed out on this thread, there are lots of spells to counter a summoned T Rex. However, as the OP has explained, part of the problem is that most of the opponents in Kingmaker don't have access to them.

If the T-Rex "inhaled" a water elemental then yes but not swallow.

[Gorbacz]

James Jacobs must be proud of this thread.

[Paul Zagieboylo]

David knott 242 wrote:

Okay -- I have been playing a summoner up to 8th level, and so far all of the summons on the Summon Monster I-IV lists have proven to be relatively unimpressive in combat. For those who have played to higher levels, is there a point at which the summoned monsters go from "meh" to "OMG WTF was that"?

Summoned monsters are never going to be hugely impressive compared to, say, your eidolon, or your friendly neighborhood barbarian. What they give you is flexibility. For example, lantern archons from SM3 defeat all damage resistance of any kind, even DR that can't normally be defeated by anything. They don't do a ton of damage with the light beams, but if you can't effectively damage something in any other way they're at least steady damage, they're surprisingly hard to kill without evil weaponry, and you can summon a giant pile of them pretty easily. Plus they're intelligent, so you can have them scout for you.

Celestial beasts start getting good at SM4 when the celestial template starts granting DR. I agree that they tend to be kind of weak until then, but celestial lions, grizzlies, rhinos, and bison are all quite dangerous because they have a lot of HP and the DR makes them harder to kill. And don't forget smite evil.

[Talonhawke]

As with Cheapy I'm reminded of my current groups first foray into 3.5.
At level 6 we had started on RHoD and they had been going pretty well as we neared the final encounted in the assualt on the city the party Assassian (green ronin version) had moved to a roof top and was using poison to snipe away at the enemies forces with drow poison with a boosted DC. As the Wyrmlord approached and realized what was going on I had him cast Wind wall and hide behind a pair of giants to deal with the melee guys. The party cleric just smiled and began casting summon monster for a T-Rex right behind the Wyrmlord. Before the Giants could even react the Wyrmlord was in the T-rex's belly with no way to cut himself out. According to them the look on my face was priceless.

[Staffan Johansson]

David knott 242 wrote:

Okay -- I have been playing a summoner up to 8th level, and so far all of the summons on the Summon Monster I-IV lists have proven to be relatively unimpressive in combat. For those who have played to higher levels, is there a point at which the summoned monsters go from "meh" to "OMG WTF was that"?

Summon Monster isn't supposed to be "OMG WTF was that?" any more than any other spell. It is, however, an amazingly flexible tool.

Need some healing? Why, here are 1d4+1 Lillends to fix you up.

Need a scout? Hello, 1d3 Bone Devils (with flight and invisibility).

Need a tank? ME ELDER EARTH ELEMENTAL.

Need some hanky-panky? 1d4+1 succubi can help you with that (though for most casters the 1 round/level will be a limit, but summoners get theirs for 1 minute/level).

Oh, wait a minute. You said 8th level, I thought you said Summon Monster VIII. Still, the point stands. Summon Monster gets its power from its amazing flexibility, not direct power. The monsters it brings forth are not supposed to win the battle on their own, anymore than a single fireball is. But remember that every attack or spell aimed at one of your summons is an attack or spell not aimed at you or your buddies.

[Reis]

if the AP encounters are too easy, just redesign them to be more difficult, you are the DM

[ruemere]

Dispel magic is your friend Any direct damage also works, just make sure you deal in excess of 20 damage.

Protection from... spells (and Magic Circles) do their job, too.

Finally, twelve low level archers should do the trick, too.

Just remember this universal truth: high level single opponents almost never work. Use groups of at least three opponents to build challenges.

Regards,
Ruemere

[wraithstrike]

shallowsoul wrote:

Grenouillebleue wrote:

Of course, if your group has NO CASTER AT ALL, summoned monsters will always be a problem.

If you have ANY KIND OF CASTER, the T-rex should be nothing more than a nuisance.

Do your opponents have a druid ?
- Hold animal
- Dominate animal (because that's fun).
- Pup Shape (because a Small T-rex with shiny little eyes trying to grapple you is so CUTE)

Do your opponents have a cleric/oracle ?
- Control Summoned creature (mwhahah)
- Hold Monster

Do your opponents have a wizard ?
- Any kind of SoS spell (Baleful polymorph is fun)

These are only a couple options.

Hold Animal, Dominate Animal, or Pup Shape will not work on a Summoned T-Rex because it is considered an outsider and not an animal.

RAW I could not find a statement saying they gain the outsider subtype. They could just be extraplanar.

[Malfus]

It is a celestial/fiendish creature, therefore it comes from the upper/lower planes. It is an outsider.
EDIT: I am no longer sure of whether or not it is actually an outsider, though celestial does mention that it comes from another plane, making suspect that it is considered an outsider.

[Snorter]

hogarth wrote:

EDIT: I don't see any limit on the number of creatures you can swallow in the Swallow Whole ability, but as a practical matter I would probably limit it to one Huge creature, two Large creatures, etc. for a T-rex.

You're in the right ballpark, there.

[shallowsoul]

wraithstrike wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

Grenouillebleue wrote:

Of course, if your group has NO CASTER AT ALL, summoned monsters will always be a problem.

If you have ANY KIND OF CASTER, the T-rex should be nothing more than a nuisance.

Do your opponents have a druid ?
- Hold animal
- Dominate animal (because that's fun).
- Pup Shape (because a Small T-rex with shiny little eyes trying to grapple you is so CUTE)

Do your opponents have a cleric/oracle ?
- Control Summoned creature (mwhahah)
- Hold Monster

Do your opponents have a wizard ?
- Any kind of SoS spell (Baleful polymorph is fun)

These are only a couple options.

Hold Animal, Dominate Animal, or Pup Shape will not work on a Summoned T-Rex because it is considered an outsider and not an animal.

RAW I could not find a statement saying they gain the outsider subtype. They could just be extraplanar.

They are native to the planes so they are outsiders.

Summon Monster summons either Outsiders, Elementals or Magical Beasts which the above spells do not work on.

Planar Ally, Lesser
School conjuration (calling) [see text]; Level cleric 4
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, M (offerings worth 500 gp plus payment, see
text), DF
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one called outsider of 6 HD or less
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
By casting this spell, you request your deity to send you an outsider(of 6 HD or less) of the deity’s choice.

If they were anything but an outsider then you couldn't use this spell to summon one.

Celestial Creature (CR +0 or +1)
Celestial creatures dwell in the higher planes, but can
be summoned using spells such as summon monster and planar ally. A celestial creature’s CR increases by +1
only if the base creature has 5 or more HD. A celestial
creature’s quick and rebuild rules are the same.

[Staffan Johansson]

Celestial/Fiendish doesn't say the creature changes type, so it doesn't (In 3e, Celestial/Fiendish animals changed to Magical Beasts, but PF doesn't do that). Not every creature on the planes is an Outsider. Bodaks, for example, are Undead, and Retrievers are Constructs.

[shallowsoul]

Staffan Johansson wrote:

Celestial/Fiendish doesn't say the creature changes type, so it doesn't (In 3e, Celestial/Fiendish animals changed to Magical Beasts, but PF doesn't do that). Not every creature on the planes is an Outsider. Bodaks, for example, are Undead, and Retrievers are Constructs.

Actually it does. Planar Ally will only allow you to summon an Outsider and yet it does allow you to summon Celestial/Infernal type creatures because it says so in their description, along with Summon Monster. Those creatures are native to the plane that you pull them from so they are outsiders.

[Deadmanwalking]

shallowsoul wrote:

Actually it does. Planar Ally will only allow you to summon an Outsider and yet it does allow you to summon Celestial/Infernal type creatures because it says so in their description, along with Summon Monster. Those creatures are native to the plane that you pull them from so they are outsiders.

If it doesn't say their creature type changes, it doesn't. As mentioned, not everything on another plane is an Outsider, look at Leng Spiders.

And specific templates can overrule general spells, such as the Celestial Animal template allowing summoning via a spell that normally only works on Outsiders.

A lot of templates change creature type, but they specifically say they do so. This one does not say anything of the kind.

[shallowsoul]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

Actually it does. Planar Ally will only allow you to summon an Outsider and yet it does allow you to summon Celestial/Infernal type creatures because it says so in their description, along with Summon Monster. Those creatures are native to the plane that you pull them from so they are outsiders.

If it doesn't say their creature type changes, it doesn't. As mentioned, not everything on another plane is an Outsider, look at Leng Spiders.

And specific templates can overrule general spells, such as the Celestial Animal template allowing summoning via a spell that normally only works on Outsiders.

A lot of templates change creature type, but they specifically say they do so. This one does not say anything of the kind.

Celestials and Infernals "are" outsiders.

[Deadmanwalking]

shallowsoul wrote:

Celestials and Infernals "are" outsiders.

The name means nothing, mechanically. It doesn't give the creature that actual creature type any more than the Giant template gives something the Giant subtype.

[wraithstrike]

I don't think the intent was to change the type, but to allow them to be summoned with those templates added on. Even in 3.5 they never gained the outsider type.

[Chobemaster]

Have you ever SEEN a T. Rex skeleton in person? It SHOULD own against man-size opponents willing to stand next to it and hack away.

It probably SHOULD cause enemy formations in front of where it suddenly appears to fragment. Attacking that thing isn't my idea of courage. More like suicide.

[wraithstrike]

In fantasyland T-Rex's get owned by people. IRL nobody fights one in melee, if they still existed anyway.

[shallowsoul]

Even if it changes them to Magical Beasts it still takes away the "Animal" type so some spells still won't work. I guess we will have to wait for a ruling.

[gustavo iglesias]

shallowsoul wrote:

Has the PC ever seen or heard of a Tyrannosaurus Rex, or are they even in your world?

You do understand that if you can't communicate with it you can't command it to do anything. How is the Oracle commanding the T-Rex?

You could use the same flawed argument for a dire lion, a dire crocodile, or even a fire elemental (unless you speak ignam). That would make Summon Monster a VERY stupid spell, woudln't it???

You can't order the Rex to dance, but you don't need any special issue to make him to attack your oponents. That would be stupid.

[wraithstrike]

According to the spell the summoned monster attacks opponents, but unless you have a way to communicate with it you can't directly control its actions.
Many GM's just ignore that so they don't have to control the creature.

They also don't become magical beast. That was only in 3.5.

[gustavo iglesias]

shallowsoul wrote:

Staffan Johansson wrote:

Celestial/Fiendish doesn't say the creature changes type, so it doesn't (In 3e, Celestial/Fiendish animals changed to Magical Beasts, but PF doesn't do that). Not every creature on the planes is an Outsider. Bodaks, for example, are Undead, and Retrievers are Constructs.

Actually it does. Planar Ally will only allow you to summon an Outsider and yet it does allow you to summon Celestial/Infernal type creatures because it says so in their description, along with Summon Monster. Those creatures are native to the plane that you pull them from so they are outsiders.

Creatures native from other plane aren't necesarelly outsiders. THIS is an outsider:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders
A celestial creature does not necesarelly share those traits. For example, they might have different hit dice, different BAB progression, less (or more) skill points, they don't necesarelly need a wish or miracle to be raised from dead. Celestial/infernal is not something that *substitute* what the creature is, it's something that is ADDED to what the creature is.

An infernal Vampire is still an undead. It does not stop to be inmune to negative levels just becouse it went to hell, it keeps all of his undead traits. A Celestial Dragon is a dragon. And a celestial dire bear is an animal.

[Staffan Johansson]

gustavo iglesias wrote:

You can't order the Rex to dance, but you don't need any special issue to make him to attack your oponents. That would be stupid.

IMO, if you want the summoned creature to do anything other than "attack the nearest creature you consider an enemy", using whatever tactics they normally do, you'd need a way to speak to them. If you summon an air elemental in order to wreak havoc on your foes, you don't need to speak with it. But if you summon it in order to have it carry you and your friends across a chasm, you need to explain that to it, and to do that you need to speak Auran. You might even need to speak Auran in order to make it attack specific targets ("No, don't attack the guy with the sword in the front line, go pick up the guy in the robe hanging back there casting fireballs!")

[gustavo iglesias]

Staffan Johansson wrote:

gustavo iglesias wrote:

You can't order the Rex to dance, but you don't need any special issue to make him to attack your oponents. That would be stupid.

IMO, if you want the summoned creature to do anything other than "attack the nearest creature you consider an enemy", using whatever tactics they normally do, you'd need a way to speak to them. If you summon an air elemental in order to wreak havoc on your foes, you don't need to speak with it. But if you summon it in order to have it carry you and your friends across a chasm, you need to explain that to it, and to do that you need to speak Auran. You might even need to speak Auran in order to make it attack specific targets ("No, don't attack the guy with the sword in the front line, go pick up the guy in the robe hanging back there casting fireballs!")

I agree. But that's not the case here. They cast the TRex and it starts to chew enemies, one per round