I am not very good at min maxing or optimizing and it's bothersome for me because I want my characters to survive more often can people tell me how to optimize/min max please?
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Well, judging from your profile picture, I don't think that min-maxing would really be your bag...
I am not very good at min maxing or optimizing and it's bothersome for me because I want my characters to survive more often can people tell me how to optimize/min max please?
So, what exactly is the issue? Can you give a little more information on what the circumstances are? I mean, what character(s) have you tried, what options with those characters, and how did you die.
Also, what would you like to do, (besides survive).
A lot of it comes from knowing the rules which takes time and practice building characters. Understanding why things work the way they do also helps. Being open to suggestions from posters has helped me get a lot better faster than I would have on my own.
Each class is also different, and realizing those differences also helps.
If you build a character and post people can give you suggestions.
You should remember that what works in one game may not work in another so if two of us giving you opposing advice how it would apply to your game is more important than how it would work or has worked for us.
Memorize as many of the different options (archetypes, feats, etc.) as you can. Read through all of the optimization threads, get a character generation program like HeroLab that allows you to easily design characters. Try lots of combinations.
The trick is to find lots of abilities that synergize or build on each other.
Danqna's Guide on Optimization:
NOTE: Your race must be Pony
1. Pick a trick, a single trick, any trick.
2. Place that trick on your character sheet in the description section.
3. Maximise the stat that allows you to use that trick all day every day in the right situation. Dump every other stat to increase this single stat.
4. Choose feats which enhance this stat, if you cannot find a feat search harder - someone has already tried what you're doing and a 3rd party will have written and published a feat for it.
5. Put skills into anything that could reasonably be expected to help towards creating situations favourable to your one trick.
6. Join a circus.
(Note that any time the GM creates a situation where you cannot use your one trick you MUST MUST MUST complain and whine about meta-gaming to break your character.)
On a serious note, you'll find that a little AC and Con go a long way towards surviving. Also, tactics. However, if you'd rather just depend on your character then yeah, what are you playing?
Well I die a lot, I'm out damaged, I have only played one semi-sucsesful shielded fighter but I admit I don't love being a fighter. My next character is going to be a wild shape druid tank, I've never played one. I have a thread on the druid i'm planning on playing.
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Look at why you die. Not dying is as much if not more about playing a smart game than building a good character. I have seen quiet a few players who could build a character, but were lacking in tactics.
Mostly it's the dice, I roll terribly as in 75% of the time under ten. My next character will be primarily a hit and run person since I plan on a relatively fast speed with pounce so I'll be able to be mobile and get in pounces.
Is that a good tactic? Also how would work at getting allies to work together more?
Mostly it's the dice, I roll terribly as in 75% of the time under ten.
Dice are dice. They generate random numbers. As much as gamers love their dice rituals, you have to remember that dice cannot "hate" you. If you are blaming the dice you won't see other mistakes you are making.
I had a friend who was terrible with rolls. He chose to make the bad guys roll the dice.
Hit and Run does not work too well in PF. I also forgot to add that what if flavorful and what is powerful don't always work together. Sometimes you have to make a choice.
Druids also have terrible AC in melee for a couple of levels. The Deinonychus has 4 or 5 attacks, and it can pounce. It is also fast.
min-maxing doesn't necessarily help your survivability unless you are min/maxing FOR survivability. In fact certain min/maxed builds can be quite fragile.
If you have trouble surviving, talk to your current GM and see if they have any suggestions for you. You can always fall back on basic techniques of survivability, such as boosting your con to get HP bonuses, putting all your favored class bonuses into your hit points, taking toughness at least once and having your character be a behind the lines support role, perhaps a cleric or druid.
Feats: Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Toughness, Quick Draw, Improved Initiative, everything else into offensive stuff.
Ability Scores: Con as 2nd after whatever your primary is. Wis and Dex.
Skills: Perception, first and foremost. If you can afford the feats, Alertness and Skill Focus (Perception) are also nice.
Traits (if in your game): the two that give bonus to Perception and anything else useful.
Option for later levels: Use Magic Device at maximum possible ranks, trait that makes it a class skill *and* adds +2, Magical Aptitude and SkF (UMD). Until you have a +19 or better this is best used as a last resort. Once you can freely use wands, you're cooking with gas. *any* character can do this, especially with at least a 10 Int.
Do not prestige class nor multi-class. Favored class bonuses are NICE and not worth losing in most cases.
Tertiary option: ramp up Stealth as high as you can. Being able to be reasonably sneaky is a nasty character option that doesn't rely on magic, although certain item can really help. Acrobatics is an excellent 4th skill. Decent Climb and Swim are nice if you can manage it, but aren't critical past a very modest bonus.
Race: selected to fit class and concept, although dwarves and hobbits/halflings get save bonuses. Half-elves get free SkF while humans get a free 1st level feat. Dwarves get darkvision and other bonuses and while not particularly fast don't care about encumbrance.
Gear: *really* depends on the game. Starting out, get a dagger or two, a club, sunrods and at a bare minimum either a sling or light crossbow with at least 10 shots of ammo *in addition* to your weapon of choice. A waterskin, pack, a few days' food and an empty sack are a must. (If nothing else, you can scrounge up some lime and haul your buddy's heads back to town in that sack...)
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All credit to these go to Caelic, originally posted over at the Gleemax boards.
Quote from: Caelic
I. Thou shalt not give up caster levels.
II. Wieldest thou thy two-handed weapon with alacrity; but two weapons shalt thou not wield, excepting that thou hast a source of bonus damage such as Sneak Attack.
III. Doubt not the power of the Druid, for he is mighty.
IV. Avoid ye the temptation of Gauntlets of True Strike, for they shall lead thee astray down the Path of Non-Rule Cheese.
V. Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice.
VI. Makest thou no build with an odd number of fighter levels, for such things are not pleasing to the Spirits of Optimization.
VII. The Rules of Pathfinder are paramount; invoke not the rules of 3.0 if a newer version be available.
VIII. When beseeching the Bretheren of Optimization, come thou not empty handed, lest they smite thee; rather, bringest thou thine own build, that they may offer suggestions and guidance.
IX. Invoke not "common sense," for it is not common.
X. Thou shalt call no build "The Ultimate X" unless his name be Pun-Pun, or thou shalt see thine "Ultimate" build topped by the Bretheren within five minutes of posting.
In PF due to the Attack of Opportunity mechanic, hit and run doesn't work because you're giving your opponent free attacks when you run. Your best option is perhaps Spring Attack (see below) but you have to be level 4 minimum on a full BAB class - so level 6 on Druid methinks
Effectively you can "flavour" a hit and run character by taking 3 ranks in Acrobatics and using "Fight defensively" for a total +3 to your AC (off the top of my head, someone will blast me if I'm wrong) - but you take a hit to your attack rolls (EDIT: -4). In my group we'd roleplay this as "You're dancing around almost out of reach but with a lucky swing they could get you."
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.
Allies working together more:
Aid Another = give a player +2 on their attack/AC by rolling a successful attack roll againt a DC of ten
Flanking - give a +2 attack roll bonus to allies/yourself with creatures in between you
Teamwork feats - have a look in the APG or D20PFSRD - there are some decent options there for playing with a buddy.
5-foot-step - this is essentially a "no-action" that lets you move 5 feet in a round during your turn with no Attacks of Opportunity - you can use it to move around allies or threaten squares to protect squishies etc.
Standing and letting the enemy come to you (provided they're melee) with readied actions etc (on your turn ready an action with specified parameters "If he comes at me I take a swing") - this lets your archers fire without the "Firing into melee" penalty
I could go on, but that's sort of a sample on how my group works our strategy.
All credit to these go to Caelic, originally posted over at the Gleemax boards.
Quote from: Caelic
VIII. When beseeching the Bretheren of Optimization, come thou not empty handed, lest they smite thee; rather, bringest thou thine own build, that they may offer suggestions and guidance.
I gave ye a build under the post with druid in it from above.
In PF due to the Attack of Opportunity mechanic, hit and run doesn't work because you're giving your opponent free attacks when you run. Your best option is perhaps Spring Attack (see below) but you have to be level 4 minimum on a full BAB class - so level 6 on Druid methinks
Effectively you can "flavour" a hit and run character by taking 3 ranks in Acrobatics and using "Fight defensively" for a total +3 to your AC (off the top of my head, someone will blast me if I'm wrong) - but you take a hit to your attack rolls (EDIT: -4). In my group we'd roleplay this as "You're dancing around almost out of reach but with a lucky swing they could get you."
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.
Allies working together more:
Aid Another = give a player +2 on their attack/AC by rolling a successful attack roll againt a DC of tenFlanking - give a +2 attack roll bonus to allies/yourself with creatures in between you
Teamwork feats - have a look in the APG or D20PFSRD - there are some decent options there for playing with a buddy.
5-foot-step - this is essentially a "no-action" that lets you move 5 feet in a round during your turn with no Attacks of Opportunity - you can use it to move around allies or threaten squares to protect squishies etc.
Standing and letting the enemy come to you (provided they're melee) with readied actions etc (on your turn ready an action with specified parameters "If he comes at me I take a...
Do you have a way of getting players to work with me so we can do better together, usually most people go after their own target unless theirs a big guy we want to take out first. I have tried before to get my allies to coordinate but they have not. As a druid tank should me and my companion focus on one target and move only after it's down?
Sometimes a GM has to give incentive for people to work together*. Everyone going after their own targets is a bad idea. I would ask them why they are not working together as a team.
*Lay the smacketh down.
ok ifI DM I will make them do so but since i'm typically a player how should I get them to work together?
Should warn you, once you learn to optimize if you ever deviate from the lessons you where taught you will be sacrificed by TarkXT on the altar of Treantmonk.
that sounds bad but I need some bad with the good.
I would talk to them about it outside of the game. It is easier to talk to people about things like that when they are not playing sometimes.
Ok I'll see if they listen to me, they typically do not.
Do you have a way of getting players to work with me so we can do better together, usually most people go after their own target unless theirs a big guy we want to take out first. I have tried before to get my allies to coordinate but they have not. As a druid tank should me and my companion focus on one target and move only after it's down?
Back when we first started playing we just did the "Enemies come at you in straight line, resolve biggest muscles." That was fine right up to the point where we were a little sick of the "I have big muscles and can take a beating, rawr" and the GM said "Ok guys, how about I do intelligent combat?" So we started the game and BAM, we needed teamwork to get through the situations.
TL;DR - what wraithstrike said
Our group is different to others and YMMV, but we never focus a target unless it's a BBEG, we've normally got two people capable of in-your-face combat and they'll try get as close to as many enemies as possible to draw fire / create attacks of opportunity. Our off-sider rogue/ninja/TWF fighter/druid sets up the flanking etc.
Oh, you may want to check the Acrobatics skill for the "Tumble" usage - allows you to pass through opponents squares without taking AoO's for a fairly low DC. This may let you set up the flanking opportunities.
(As always, bear in mind other players tend to like their characters and won't generally walk into danger for you. Take the initiative and roleplay the tough guy - if they are cowards show them up.)
What's your group makeup? The people on this forum can point out the max benefits for each class working with other classes.
Where is your build? I seem to have overlooked it, and I can't find it.
The build was that we would both be tigers move around attack one target until he's down then move on.
Learning to optimize is just a matter of actually looking at the way the game works and analyzing it. Build your system mastery by reading lots of threads here, as well as learning how the rules really work. Really put a lot of thought into why encounters go the way they do, extrapolate from that what it says about character design and options. Understanding action economy and resource management are crucial, but not really ever spelled out in any rulebook.
I am planning on lion shaman as they are really good, I like tigers and they have pounce galahad2112.
Why thank you.
@ galahad2112 do you have any tips of how to make a sucsesfull character in general?
I found the first build with the monk levels, and I have to agree with the others that taking monk levels is not worth it.
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Here's my advice at being better at optimization in and of itself.
Before optimization there must be a focus. What are you wanting to do? What is your primary means of achieving success? You need to focus your character in on what you want him to do.
First Mechanical optimization:
You need to know what the spread is that you are likely to be facing, at each level. You can build to your heart's content but if you don't know what your target numbers look like you won't know if what you build is any good or not. You need to be aware of the average AC, save throws, CMD, and HP of each CR. You'll also need to have a general knowledge of the attack bonus, average damage and save DCs of abilities for each CR too. Having this knowledge helps you know what your character is going to need in order to successfully harm and not be harmed by the monsters you will face, and just how successful he is likely to be against each CR.
Secondly we have system mastery:
You need to know what combinations of gear and abilities give the most bang for your buck. If you are the type to simply by +3 armor as soon as you can then this is going to need to be an area of study for you. +3 armor costs 9,000. Instead you could by +2 armor and a ring of protection +1 as well as an amulet of natural armor +1 and end up with 1 more point of AC for 1,000 gp less. This extends to feats and class features as well. Don't let a pile of dice fool you -- sure you can have 7 attacks that have 10d6 sneak attack damage each... but if they never land or you can't achieve a sneak attack solution it doesn't matter. A fighter with two short swords can achieve a high enough bonus to his damage rolls that he doesn't need sneak attack. With good system mastery you'll be able to pick out the best tricks to achieve your mechanical optimization.
Next we have Versatility optimization:
Alright so you have your primary ability, and you can successfully achieve it and not get wiped out. Congratulations. Now how often are you going to be able to apply this primary ability and what do you do when you can't use it? It's great to have the world's best melee character -- up until all the enemies are out of melee range. If you don't plan for this you are useless and that means you aren't optimized. You need to have at least one if not multiple plans for what you can do to help when your primary ability is useless, this can include ideas on how to get to where your primary ability can be used again (say a fly spell for a melee character) but you need to make sure you can still help in other ways.
Finally Character tie in and party fit:
Great you have a successful character -- you are ready for different situations and can succeed with your primary ability. The enemies are unlikely to take you out easily and you look ready to have a successful adventuring career.
Now look at your party. Does your character 'fit' the story (this isn't just playing about playing a ninja in the civil war type fitting either)? Does your character have too much overlap with other characters in the party? Is your character going to overshadow everyone else in the group? You need to make sure that your character still fits in at the table and you aren't going to cause strife. Sometimes this means backing off the optimization a little -- and that's fine, since you can always step it back up later if need be.
Now the one thing that will help you be good at this is:
Practice.
Build characters, of all levels -- and then compare them against opponents of multiple levels. Look for monsters that will have an easy time of taking them out, look for monsters they'll have an easy time of taking out. Compare them to other characters (of all levels still) and see if there is another way to do the same thing with different classes or abilities.
Practice will allow you to more easily match the exact character and background you want with abilities that will match the fluff without needing a lot of homebrew tinkering, and if tinkering is needed you'll have a better idea of how and where you can go with it and still stay balanced in the overall system and game.
@ gallahad ok I'll get it, but please keep druid related stuff to the other thread and optimization stuff in general in this thread please.
What Mr.Spalding said is very true. There is not a one glove fits all answer. What is "good" will vary according to other factoers.
What are some tactics you guys have used for specific characters so I can learn about different tactics.
What do you mean tactics?
Normally my groups work together. It is harder when everyone is flying solo. Flanking is helpful. Cutting off parts of the battlefield with spells is nice. Buffing allies, and debuffing the enemy also helps.
As a druid I have summoned monsters when we were severly outnumbered. I sent my tiger to grapple the boss. The boss never got free. :)
I have used spike stone to make enemies take the long route to get to me.
I have used stone shape to make holes in walls.
Tactics as in a routine you typically use. i.e. first round for wiz you cast a stone wall to corner enimes the next round you cast fire ball while your tank stays at a choke point to kill the people who try to get out.
spading know that I have given you an example could you please give me ideas?
Specific tactics are going to depend on your group and situation.
A few rules off the top of my head:
Magic is most powerful in the first round of combat.
It is better to take on enemies one at a time while keeping the others disabled, stranded or otherwise restricted. Two half-dead enemies are fully dangerous; A dead and a living enemy are compromised.
Try to leave openings for your allies. The openings can be literal (for a charge) or figurative (tripping an enemy).
Preventing damage is better than healing damage.
I'll give you an action plan how about that?
You want a flowchart that points out the easiest ways to get to your primary set up.
Consider a vivisectionist/beastmorph, a flow chart for such might look like this:
1. Get initiative charge/pounce for sneak attack.
2. Flank for sneak attack.
3. Use non-lethal damage with enforcer and shatter defense to get sneak attack.
The fewer actions you have to preform to get to your optimal spot the better, as complex plans fail in combat situations - either the enemy responds before you can finish or an ally gets in the way.
Do as much as you can before combat. If you are a wizard use those hour per level buffs -- they are going to last long enough and you don't want to have to cast them when combat starts.
Also consider action types that you don't normally use. For example fighters rarely use swift actions, as such you should look for something to do with that swift action -- bodyguard can be an excellent choice to fill that action type with something that can benefit your allies.
Charging should only occur in two instances generally:
1. You have pounce or spirited charge.
2. You have to get to the enemy so he doesn't walk over and stomp on someone else that is more vulnerable.
Make your enemies charge you instead -- doing so causes them to take a penalty on their AC and only get a single swing (generally). You get to respond with a full attack against their lowered AC. If you had charged they would get a full attack against your lower AC and all you got was a single hit... that's a poor trade.
Don't be afraid to look for your surroundings to help -- put difficult terrain between you and the enemy so they can't charge. Now they have to close and might not get an attack -- doubly good for your return action. If you think an enemy is going to move away take a 5' step into a spot that forces him to provoke from you when he does so.
Use summoned monsters to get rid of AoO's before you take your action. If you have your action, your familiar's action and some summoned monsters and you are threatened move the summoned monsters and familiar before you move yourself -- that way you can tempt the monster into giving up its AoO for the round and you can move freely.
Make your enemies charge you instead -- doing so causes them to take a penalty on their AC and only get a single swing (generally). You get to respond with a full attack against their lowered AC. If you had charged they would get a full attack against your lower AC and all you got was a single hit... that's a poor trade.
That's called using your head - never looked at it like that before but it's very true. Charging has been dropping out of our game recently unless the enemies are a long way away, then it's kind of useful, especially for gnomes.
1. Never split the party.
2. Focus fire on one bad guy at a time whenever possible.
3. Be adaptable and plan for contingencies.
4. Heal AFTER combat and not during it aside from extreme emergencies (or if you can do so and still take an action that helps END the fight).
5. Generally speaking, disable casters first.
6. Work as a team. Strive for synergy. People who always try to "be a hero" usually die glorious deaths. Parties that work together tend to live longer lives.
Just a few observations that have worked well at tables I've been at.
Are healbots nessacary then or are they not as I always think.