Reach is a big advantage. However, you only get one AoO a turn without Combat Reflexes, and if you get past that spear he has to drop it or retreat.
A number of other options:
Sunder (stop short of the AoO and smash the spear)
Use Acrobatics skill (to avoid AoO)
Mobility (+4 AC to AoOs)
Otherwise, your player has found a valid tactic: keep 'em at a distance.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Let them have the confidence from this session. Use it to draw them into sticky situations the next session.
|
This should naturally balance itself out around 4-5th level, when monsters get multiple attacks and are large with a 10' reach. The same thing happened in one of my homegames, and this particular build doesnt fare as well when the monsters can do the same back, PLUS close and fight adjacent without a penalty, where the reach fighter has to keep a space there or drop weapons. It is still a good build, just not as dominating...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah I would so do all of those things if this was a home game, but seeing as this is a Pathfinder Society game, I have to strictly abide by the stats for the encounters as written. Unfortunately, the barbarian and paladin are twin brothers new to Pathfinder, and they had an experienced veteran help create their characters for power-gaming, so they are more like fourth or fifth level characters instead of level two, but I'm still restricted to the "Tiers 1-2" monsters. They're power gaming without even realizing it, and since they're so new, they don't think of it as a bad thing. But the other two players were pretty much useless, since the monsters were already dead before the fight began.
Using a reach weapon is not really powergaming unless they did other things. Things should get easier for you as a GM once you get access to higher level monsters.
As for the paladin having to drop his spear or retreat if you get close to him, my understanding is that he can merely take a 5 foot step back and still attack? So the 'retreat' option is actually a non-issue unless he has no room behind him.
This is true enough, but if he retreats, so must his allies and what is good for him may not be good for them.
As for mon-maxing, why a longspear? There are plenty of reach weapons that are far more versatile and do more damage.
Something that attacks will saves will get them.
Barbarian gets temp. Paralyzed, pally flanked by skeletons.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah I would so do all of those things if this was a home game, but seeing as this is a Pathfinder Society game, I have to strictly abide by the stats for the encounters as written. Unfortunately, the barbarian and paladin are twin brothers new to Pathfinder, and they had an experienced veteran help create their characters for power-gaming, so they are more like fourth or fifth level characters instead of level two, but I'm still restricted to the "Tiers 1-2" monsters. They're power gaming without even realizing it, and since they're so new, they don't think of it as a bad thing. But the other two players were pretty much useless, since the monsters were already dead before the fight began.
Having a spear and hitting someone before they hit you is power gaming? Really?
Here is my advice if this situation comes up in the future: Let Them, that is what spears are for after all.
the other players seemed bored.
I think this is more important to address than the players with uber damage.
One possibility would be to have your more intelligent enemies avoid the barbarian/paladin since they've established a reputation for BAMF-ing all over the place and the [intelligent] enemies feel they have a better chance of succeeding at their goals by going after the others.
Also, as has already been recommended, try to use Acrobatics, etc to avoid provking an AoO. Without seeing the players' character sheets in question, I'd guess the DC would be about 20 or something.
One thing I would address is this. If the players that are killing everything die because they held back they will not be happy. I would definitely not get them to hold back, and then allow them to die.
longspear is broken.
non perisans can't handle the spartans. I suggest not throwing monsters into them like a wood chipper. Also they can normally only make one aoo per turn.
I guess instead of saying "Power Gaming" I should have said "Optimized". An experienced player helped make them characters that could have maximum damage at first level, so the barbarian regularly does 15-40 points of damage, and the Paladin does slightly less, but at reach.
Don't get me wrong, those guys had a lot of fun pulverizing all the monsters to oblivion, but I thought they would have enjoyed it more if they were the wee bit challenged, and the other players seemed bored.
Curious as to how a 1st level character is doing 15-40 damage?
As for the other players being bored maybe give them some hints as to things they could do also, don't let them just sit and watch.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ghouls, Violet Fungus, Guard Dogs? I think I know which Society scenario you're talking about.
That scenario is a season 0, all of which tend to be on the easy side because they were designed for 3.5 rules and PF PCs are more powerful, especially at low levels.
Try them against a season 2 or 3 scenario. (Except First Steps, that series was designed to be a cakewalk.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
swarms. Swarms. Swarms.
Sounds to me like some rules are being forgotten/misread. Regularly doing 40 damage at first? MAYBE a Barbarian with a Falchion who's on a real hotstreak with the dice, but that's not a reach weapon, and also not going to happen all the time. Definitely sounds like people were taking more AoOs than they should. Just really look at these builds and how they're being played to make sure everything is right.
I'll be honest being challenged at level 1 aggravates me to no end but more importantly where are they getting 40 damage from at that level?
Assuming 20 str which they shouldn't have but lets assume they got it somehow for +5 times 1.5 for 2hand to +7 toss in power attack for +3 gives you +10 and 1d8 from a longspear for a maximum damage of 18 unless they crit which at 20 x3 won't be happening often enough to care.
I'd like to know if they aren't fudging their sheets to be honest.
The level 1 barb in my game can do that. 20 str + raging + enlarged + power attack with a greatsword is 6d6+30 damage on a crit.
Yes static bonuses get multiplied on crits.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Bolded for emphasis.
I think my suggestion would be not to advance on the paladin but instead wait, ready an action to 5' step and hit him if he approaches. Then, assuming the paladin wants to attack the bad guys, he moves to 10' range which would allow him an attack except that the monster's ready goes off first. They close the range (not allowing an AoO, because 5' steps don't) so that he is no longer able to attack them (they're inside his reach) and the monster gets a swing. Next round, the monster goes first (because of their ready) and can either attack the paladin again OR (if you're feeling mean) they can ready again to 5' step forwards and attack the paladin if he 5' steps backwards in order to attack them. (The paladin can, of course, choose to draw a non-reach weapon and hit the monster with it, so I wouldn't advise *telling* him what your ready is).
This is not unreasonable for an intelligent monster. Long spears are intended to keep people at a distance so when you see someone pointing one at you, you don't naturally want to charge them. This is just a variation on "I ready an action to hit any enemy who moves up to me", but requires a bit more thought to take into account the character's reach.
Also, remember that without combat reflexes, no AoO when flat footed so if your monsters get initiative they can run up and hit the paladin to their heart's content.
Another option is just to use missile weapons. Unshielded characters will take some hits and if they close it's 'drop bow, draw sword, 5'step, attack'.
Final suggestion would be to turn the lights out. No AoO on monsters you can't see. (Although of course, if you are running a PFS game I guess you have to run exactly as written and if there isn't anything with a darkness spell then there isn't).
The 'reach' tactic is all very well against monsters that die on one hit, but once you're up to 3 hit die monsters it's not much more effective than winning initiative.
Good luck. I think optimising characters makes for boring games and have house ruled that "no PC can start with a 20, 18s only allowed with special permission".
Being fair is ok. What you can do is have some enemies run away instead of fighting to the last man. Those that escape can report back to whoever they work for.
I fully agree with your starting point. 'Mind reading' monsters aren't fair. But the game is less fun if it's not challenging for the players (something that many players just don't seem to realise) and if you're in a position that you can't just throw 'tougher monsters' you need to rebalance the odds somehow.
Ranged Combat.
A few Goblins with alchemist fire or bows ftw :)
the Paladin has TWF?
Ok that sounds really weird. What are his stats?
To be honest... that really doesnt seem like hes optimizing in any way.
As far as its a PFS game I assume you're using pointbuy. Thats why I dont get how that paladin can be any effective (I'd be really interested in the build).
And the barbarian looks like 90% of all level 1 barbarians that are created. I guess even the Paizo characters are facing stats like these.
To me that sounds like you have to deal with the same problems every DM has to manage. At level one Melee's are kinda tough because they're killing enemies with one hit due to their one hit dice. But after that hitpoints increase faster than damage, so....
Just go with those advices in here.
And Paladins aren't likely to have high Dex so not too many AoOs even WITH the feat.Acrobatics skill.
Also, each character only gets one AoO per round, unless they have combat reflexes feat.
I disagree, as do a lot of people including the creators of the game. Have you not seen the mighty archer paladin? While not perfect by any definition, they are incredibly dangerous, and always have a high dexterity. An archer paladin is a mere two steps away from being a reach paladin. That step is taking a reach weapon and combat reflexes. A high-level archer paladin might take it anyway, just to take advantage of snap shot, and it's friends.
I hate the advice to "wait for higher levels" or "it should round itself out in 4-5 levels". That's alot of gameplay to trivialize.
Anyway, as a GM, I generally try to sculpt specific encounters around what my players are using as PC's, so that I can turn their strength into weakness, and provide a certain amount of challenge to their game.
In case anyone missed it, the OP said several times that this is for PFS. He can not change the encounters at all, they have to be ran in the way the module presents them with very little deviation.