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This is an attempt to break down the various "changes" concerns and issues to try to figure out what we all want.
It seems the intent was to make it functionally full BaB TWF following the TWF progressions at the appropriate levels. The concept being the monk should be comparable to a TWF martian class. This isn't comprehensive, feel free to add.
Power Problems with the "old" way:
1. Allowing a single weapon to be used as frequently as a twf uses two separate weapons is a huge advantage.
2. There was a lack of clarity if you could use THF and flurry.
3. You allow players to avoid having to deal with offhanded attack.
4. You marginalize unarmed, since it is fair cheaper and more effective to boost a single weapon than go with AOMF.
Lack of power problem with the "new" way
1. You functionally get TWF, but you don't get access to any of the bonus feat chains.
2. You still have the limitation of only being able to do it with suboptimal (and and generally more rare) monk weapons.
Problems both ways.
1. Unarmed damage goes up, but attack bonus doesn't. Amulet of Mighty fist caps at +5 with a cost greater than two weapons, and takes up a weapon slot. So unarmed is far worse than using a monk weapon, despite being the iconic concept of the class.
2. Monks generally have lower strength than martial classes, given the need to spread out ability scores more, making the attack bonus even lower.
3. You are more likely to hit with a flurry than with a single attack, which is kind of silly.
The monk is a fun class, but it has become a patchwork class. I hope the Devs take this opportunity to figure out what they want the class to be.
The last several books a "too many cooks in the kitchen" problem has seemed to emerge that isn't the fault of any specific Dev (I think they are all quality) but rather from what I view as a lack of a clear definition of intent for each class.
And frankly, I don't think any of the Devs are big monk players or this would have been cleared up a long time ago.
So I hope however it works out, this time it isn't a bandaid.
Figure out what the Pathfinder monk is supposed to be, and make it so.
Nice post. Rather well-defined and you note lots of the big problems.
The main thing I see is that while the Monk gets all kinds of awesome abilities no-one else ever gets (slow fall possibly being at the top), it sacrifices combat prowess for that, which other martial characters (ranger in particular) don't seem to have to. True the ranger can only go up to medium armor, but his dexterity is usually high enough for it to never matter. The Monk can't ever wear a single piece of armor and gets wisdom as a bonus to AC. His wisdom, while high because of all the abilities tied to it, will never be enough to offset the loss of armor.
When I build a Monk, I like the idea of a real defensive guy - combat expertise, dodge, high Dex and Wis - but no matter how good it gets, it always ends up being too easy to hit. It should be able to compete with fighter AC, sure, but it shouldn't be able to be built for a specific purpose and do that task relatively well.
EDIT: Fixed a typo.
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Nice post. Rather well-defined and you note lots of the big problems.
The main thing I see is that while the Monk gets all kinds of awesome abilities no-one else ever gets (slow fall possibly being at the top), it sacrifices combat prowess for that, which other martial characters (ranger in particular) don't seem to have to. True the ranger can only go up to medium armor, but his dexterity is usually high enough for it to never matter. The Monk can't ever wear a single piece of armor and gets wisdom as a bonus to AC. His wisdom, while high because of all the abilities tied to it, will never be enough to offset the loss of armor.
When I build a Monk, I like the idea of a real defensive guy - combat expertise, dodge, high Dex and Wis - but no matter how good it gets, it always ends up being too easy to hit. It should be able to compete with fighter AC, sure, but it shouldn't be able to be built for a specific purpose and do that task relatively well.
EDIT: Fixed a typo.
I still don't see how you can today build a dex-based monk and suck at AC. Qinggong archetype gives you barkskin at level 4 up to +5 natural AC at level 12, crane style gives you +4 to AC.
My monk's AC is stellar, I wrestled and pinned a monster with lots of tentacles and grapple attempts today, and he got 14 Dex.
dont forget rings of ac, or items that give you natural armor. I think monks AC sucks the worst in the single digit levels, but I have had monks that could sit up front with fighters and paladins alike without too much trouble
Monk AC is a non starter.
They have great AC, if built like monks and not fighters.
The flurry is a disaster with the new silliness.
The problem with the Monk is that he shows how the 3.X "Monty Haul" magic item system is a weakness in the system itself.
The AoMF is a Druid item, priced for a Druid, with crafting requirements that only Druids and pseudo-Druids (rangers) can do. We can all agree that the Druid is the 1st or 2nd most powerful class in the game. The AoMF is perfect given that assessment.
The Monk is way down on the power level chart, comparatively.
The class is unique in that it is the only class that is built Defensively. It's offense is predicated on a progressive Unarmed Strike feature and a simpler form of TWF. this however means that the AoMF is a necessity to make this combat style scale in power with other melee classes. The AoMF is too expensive for the Monk, is in a poor item slot that requires compromise, and has no alternative.
Monk weapons in the CRB suck, period. They do crappy damage, have awful Crit mods and terrible threat ranges. They are analogous to items on the Simple Weapon list, but somehow separated from those (often better stat wise) weapons by virtue of their "flurriability". The later additions to the monk arsenal are improvements, but suffer from various levels of Nerfium, they are either:
1)Equally sucky to the CRB offerings
2)A feat tax, as they aren't an auto-prof.
3)Weirdly designed or badly described
This still leaves the Monk penalized by weapons, which leaves the AoMF as the default for high level builds.
I feel like all of the monk nonsense lately is a defense of the AoMF. Or more precisely a defense of the shape-changing Druid. With a refusal to address the issues that monk players have had since 3.0.
I agree with Ciretose, the Devs don't play monks. A few of them apparently don't like them at all. Or they know something we don't. If the Monk can be broken with some Uber secret combo, I haven't figured it out. ( and my group has some serious houserules for monks). And I've tried.
I have a great deal of respect for the Devs, but I find myself in serious disagreement with SKR in particular when it comes to my favorite class.
* He has posted that monk UA damage is not available with glove-like weapons as the leather/metal/cloth prevents the monk from making physical contact with an enemy. This would logically indicate that shoes would likewise prevent UA damage with kicks as well.
* He has now posted that the monk can't flurry with the same weapon repeatedly since flurry isn't similar to TWF it IS TWF, just without providing access to the whole tree. So we have all been doing it wrong for 12+ years.
If you take these 2 posts together, the monk now must have 2 (subpar) weapons to fight effectively, or he can have an AoMF and fight in a loincloth, barehanded and barefoot.
This is why the Magic item slot rules are a mess with the monk.
He already has lost access to the armor slot ( anything in that slot invalidates 1/3 of the class features)
Now he has lost the foot slot and the hand slot. ( otherwise he losses UA damage progression)
The neck slot is an AoMF ( goodbye Natural Armor boost, Negative Energy mitigation)
He is the most MAD class so the belt and head slots are taken by default.
(stat boosters, that many of us oldschoolers hate)
That just blows.
Frankly I thought that the Flurry mechanic was fine. This new "interpretation" was unnecessary and contradictory to the RAW.
If what they wanted was TWF, that should have been built into the class from the outset. It would have left us with the 3.5 "Flurry of Misses" issue, unless the class got full BAB. Then we would have had a Ranger with no armor, less skill points, less weapon options, no spells, no pet, no ranged alternative but options for shield bonuses, rends and some other stuff like maybe a pounce option.
That would be fine, but with all of the monk defensive abilities that would be everyone's default dip level.
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Also the running issue stands that a monk is restricted by having to meet TWF weapon requirements(must use at least two weapons, though at least now its setteled that unarmed stikes arent all one weapon) but doesnt have the feats and thus cant take any of the other TWF feats such as TWD or TWR.
Also the other thread that came up about the Off-hand implications of all this had some good points about monks not having an off hand for Unarmed Strike and whether or not using non light weapons changes your penatly when flurrying.
Just seen this.
Er...how on earth is this 'update' supposed to work for a zen archer? You flurry with bows, and only with bows - are you supposed to take Quickdraw and tote 8 bows at 20th?
Ridiculous, badly thought out, and in this case unplayable.
They are working on a final way of how they want it to work and it has been said that the zen archer will either work with the new way or be an exception to how it works, but that they do want it to work in the end.
I see.
That seems to make the zen archer startlingly more potent than other monks.
I admire the attempt to clear up confusion between flurry and twf, but I'm not sure this works too well.
Please excuse my gut reaction overcriticism above.
It just seems that with the sheer number of exceptions that will have to be made for this to work, it would be simpler just to leave it alone. But that is only my opinion.
Master Arminas
The AoMF is a Druid item, priced for a Druid, with crafting requirements that only Druids and pseudo-Druids (rangers) can do. We can all agree that the Druid is the 1st or 2nd most powerful class in the game. The AoMF is perfect given that assessment
This is the stupidest statement i've seen in a while. AoMF was being specifically developed for monks. Druids in that days where not able to benefit from any item while in wild shape. In fact it says fists and not claws. The amulet is priced as enchanting 2,5 weapon, and is a very fair thing, since the monk are actually fighting with 2 weampon and have the addictional flexibility of usng any appendage (2 hands, 2 feets, 2 knees ecc.). Basically, monk have 2 weapon and they pay for half a weapon extra for the ability to fight unimpared even with the hands tied.
James Jacobs has said that the pricing the amulet of mighty fists is due to the fact that it also applies to natural weapon attacks, and needed to priced high to compensate for creatures with 3+ natural attacks (imagine a hydra wearing an AoMF).
Unarmed strikes is a single weapon; it doesn't matter how many times a monk can attack with that weapon, or which part of his body he uses; it remains a single weapon. So why should he have to pay 2.5 times the cost that anyone else pays to gain an enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes? And be capped at +5 in the process.
Yes, Deklinder, as designed and priced, the AoMF better serves critters and druids and summoners than it does a monk. And it is not that the druid wears the AoMF or the summoner; their animal companions or edilons (however it is spelled) wear them.
Master Arminas
While the AoMF may have been first designed as a monk item in 3.0, that doesn't matter now in an environment where large numbers of natural attacks are available to Druids, Natural-style Rangers, certain Barbarians and Summoners.
A lot of things in the game are artifacts of mistakes made in the design of 3.0 (eg spontaneous spell progression) but regardless of the history of the design, the devs are absolutely correct in this case about the pricing in the context of natural weapons.
It just seems that with the sheer number of exceptions that will have to be made for this to work, it would be simpler just to leave it alone. But that is only my opinion.
Master Arminas
The Monk is being coming the new Summoner, full of exceptions and explainations?
While the AoMF may have been first designed as a monk item in 3.0, that doesn't matter now in an environment where large numbers of natural attacks are available to Druids, Natural-style Rangers, certain Barbarians and Summoners.
A lot of things in the game are artifacts of mistakes made in the design of 3.0 (eg spontaneous spell progression) but regardless of the history of the design, the devs are absolutely correct in this case about the pricing in the context of natural weapons.
Agreed, Saint Caleth. What the monk players want from Paizo isn't a cheaper amulet of the mighty fists, we want a less expensive item that only applies to unarmed strikes and NOT to natural weapons. Which should be on par with other manufactured weapons.
Master Arminas
While the AoMF may have been first designed as a monk item in 3.0, that doesn't matter now in an environment where large numbers of natural attacks are available to Druids, Natural-style Rangers, certain Barbarians and Summoners.
A lot of things in the game are artifacts of mistakes made in the design of 3.0 (eg spontaneous spell progression) but regardless of the history of the design, the devs are absolutely correct in this case about the pricing in the context of natural weapons.
Agreed, Saint Caleth. What the monk players want from Paizo isn't a cheaper amulet of the mighty fists, we want a less expensive item that only applies to unarmed strikes and NOT to natural weapons. Which should be on par with other manufactured weapons.
Master Arminas
True, but the main issue with the necklace in 3.5 was it slotted badly so it would be cheaper as Guantlet of Mighty Fists: you'd save 33% of your gold.
Moderators, could we please merge these two threads that began from an accidental double-post? PLEASE?
Master Arminas