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I have a question for the community that I'm not certain about. I bet it's easy to answer and I just don't know where to look :) But here we go: Is a monk who have natural attacks, able to substitute his unarmed strike damage for the natural attack damage?
For example: I have 2 claw attacks in addition to my one unarmed strike attack. My claws are secondary weapons and so they have a -5 penalty to hit, and their damage is 1d4 + half strength mod. My unarmed strike is a normal attack at 1d8 damage + full strength.
Can I instead attack with the claws "unarmed" (still -5 to hit) but using my 1d8 damage + full strength?
Any rules qutoes or precedents for or against?
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Thank you Dennis, I do think you are right, just wondering if there are ways to work around that?
What if I use the feat "Feral Combat Training"? It says:
"Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike." (my bolding).
The monk class augments an unarmed strike - with that feat, can I then augment my natural attacks? So that my unarmed strike damage (and full strength bonus) now applies?
The Idea behind the monks unarmed attacks is that you can use any part of your body as a weapon, so I dont see why you wouldnt be able to use your claws in an unarmed strike
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Ah - but that's not the point. The point is that natural attacks are in addition to all other attacks you have (I know they cannot be used as part of a flurry of blows - but that's not what I'm asking here), just at a -5 penalty, as they are then considered secondary weapon.
Therefore I have my normal attacks (unarmed or not) and then I have 2 additional claw attacks, both at -5.
The question is, if I can use f.ex. "Feral Combat Training" to change the damage of my two claw attacks to my unarmed strike damage? (which for a monk is a significant increase).
Does anyone have an opinion? Can Feral Combat Training let you use your unarmed strike damage instead of the damage of your natural weapons? :)
It looks like the answer is yes, but I would still hit the FAQ button.
I would assume that Feral Combat Training would let you do unarmed strike damage with claws (that sounds like the whole point of the feat), but I'm pretty sure you can't combine unarmed (or armed) strikes with natural attacks. I thought I read somewhere you couldn't, but I don't have my books with me right now. I'd recommend checking the PFSRD.
It looks like the answer is yes, but I would still hit the FAQ button.
I'm eagerly looking forward to the FAQ ruling that lets my frog druid/monk do unarmed strike damage with his kung-fu tongue.
The question is, if I can use f.ex. "Feral Combat Training" to change the damage of my two claw attacks to my unarmed strike damage?
Feral Combat Training: "Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike."
So the question is: Is the monk Unarmed Strike class feature considered an effect that augments an unarmed strike? (Personally, I think no.)
The FAQ on Feral Combat Training doesn't mention it, but that doesn't completely rule it out, either.
@Jodokai: You can - they just count as secondary attacks (with a -5 to hit). This is shown multiple places in various powers and abilities, to mention a few; barbarian, halr-orc, alchemist, witch...
For my build - a synthesist monk which is more monk than synthesist, this feat will be a really nice boost and will make me more on par in the damage apartment, as I'm severely lacking there. But I can see some builds of monk/synthesist, where this might create a very skewed power slide...
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I would assume that Feral Combat Training would let you do unarmed strike damage with claws (that sounds like the whole point of the feat), but I'm pretty sure you can't combine unarmed (or armed) strikes with natural attacks. I thought I read somewhere you couldn't, but I don't have my books with me right now. I'd recommend checking the PFSRD.
Look up the FAQ blog from a few weeks ago, it specifically addressed Feral Combat Training.
You can use a natural attack for any number of your FoB attacks, but not in addition to.
Oh - and thank you Grick! Hmmm. It's not completely clear what the intention is there. The FAQ writes:
"Feral Combat Training allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon—you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks, use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon, apply the effects of the natural weapon (such as a poisonous bite) for each flurry of blows attack, and so on."
The part that says "allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon" makes me think that they then suggest that you would use the damage of the natural attack, as that is also what you do with a monk weapon (substituting the weapons damage for the unarmed strike damage).
But! When using a monk weapon in this way, you would use your full strength bonus, even if holding it in your off-hand, wouldn't you? So maybe one would keep the damage of the natural attack (f.ex. 1d4) but now add full strength bonus to damage?
Argh... this confuses me!
@Artanthos: I'm actually not talking about Flurry of Blows :) My own character (which is the orignal reason that med me think of this whole line of questioning) is a Maneuver Master Monk and does not have that class feature. So he just has one normal unarmed strike - but then has to claw attacks (from the synthesist), which are then considerede secondary attacks.
Question 1 is: Does the fact that the character is also a monk, mean that the way the claws cause damage, change?
And question 2 is: If question 1 is a no - does it then change if you have the feat "Feral Combat Training"? Aka: Can you cause unarmed strike damage + full strength bonus instead of your claw damage and half strength bonus?
When using a monk weapon in this way, you would use your full strength bonus, even if holding it in your off-hand, wouldn't you?
If a monk is two-weapon fighting (not using flurry) with a weapon, not an unarmed strike, his off-hand gets half strength like everyone else.
If a monk is not TWF, but just fighting normally (not using flurry) with a weapon, not an unarmed strike, he has no off hand, so all his attacks are whatever strength his number of hands grants, like everyone else.
The only time a monk is granted full strength to offhand weapons is when using flurry, or using unarmed strike.
If Unarmed Strike (the class feature) is not an effect that augments unarmed strikes, then the "no off-hand" rules will also not apply to the natural weapon chosen with feral combat training.
I agree completely. Nice step-by-step presentation of the relevant facts.
The big question is if the Unarmed Strike monk class feature does or does not alter/augment the natural attacks, with Feral Combat Training.
My frustraton above was mostly just aimed at the fact that I find it hard to read in to what the intention was.
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I do have to say, that by RAW, I think it would be fair to say that Feral Combat Training lets you use your unarmed strike damage instead of the damage of your natural weapon. I would have a hard time arguing against the Monk unarmed strike class feature not being an "effect that augment an unarmed strike." (slightly changed quote from the Feral Combat Training feat).
If a monk is two-weapon fighting (not using flurry) with a weapon, not an unarmed strike, his off-hand gets half strength like everyone else.If a monk is not TWF, but just fighting normally (not using flurry) with a weapon, not an unarmed strike, he has no off hand, so all his attacks are whatever strength his number of hands grants, like everyone else.
The only time a monk is granted full strength to offhand weapons is when using flurry, or using unarmed strike.
If Unarmed Strike (the class feature) is not an effect that augments unarmed strikes, then the "no off-hand" rules will also not apply to the natural weapon chosen with feral combat training.
Are you saying someone who normally has a bite that does 1d8 + 1.5xStr mod would deal the same damage flurrying with the bite according to that interpretation of Feral Combat Training?
Regardless of whether FCT lets one change the natural weapon base damage to that of their monk unarmed strike damage,FCT is still clearly treating the natural weapon as a monk weapon for purposes of FoB (per the FAQ). That means, just like flurrying with a sansetsukon or other two-handed weapon, the damage is going to be base wpn dmg + 1x Str mod.
Are you saying someone who normally has a bite that does 1d8 + 1.5xStr mod would deal the same damage flurrying with the bite according to that interpretation of Feral Combat Training?
"A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands."
I see no reason for that to change if you're flurrying with a natural weapon via Feral Combat Training.
Regardless of whether FCT lets one change the natural weapon base damage to that of their monk unarmed strike damage,FCT is still clearly treating the natural weapon as a monk weapon for purposes of FoB (per the FAQ). That means, just like flurrying with a sansetsukon or other two-handed weapon, the damage is going to be base wpn dmg + 1x Str mod.
Yes.
Yes.
Just checking if I was understanding you correctly, I got confused by your previous post. I'm easily confused sometimes. ;)
I would have a hard time arguing against the Monk unarmed strike class feature not being an "effect that augment an unarmed strike."
Is it an effect?
I can find spell effects, where is it where it describes effects in general? I wish to find the definition of effects not just spell effects. On page 199, the second paragraph from the left it says, "Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects." Where is the definition of this word, effects?Effect = anything that someone makes happen. It doesn't have a definition because it already has one in the dictionary.
The bit on page 199 basically uses the word "effects" rather than attempting an exhaustive list of things that could give you bonuses to attack rolls, which could include class abilities, racial abilities, character traits, ad-hoc bonuses given you by the GM, Aid Another bonuses, bonuses from magic items, bonuses from the terrain or weather, and so on and so on.
Basically, if something gives you a bonus (or a penalty) to an attack roll, you get to add that to your CMB—provided those bonuses apply to the move you're trying to pull off.
Does the Unarmed Strike class ability make something happen? Not really.
Does it give you a bonus (or a penalty) to what you're doing? Kind of, if you use the English definition of bonus (meaning 'something good' rather than a positive modifier).
Not sure. I lean towards no, but could be convinced either way.
Thank you for your opinion Grick - I often value your input on the boards. You (and wraithstrike) are often very good at getting to the exact point of the matter - and backing it up with rules quotes and references. And that's always a pleasure.
I personally feel that by RAW it would/should probably fly. I also kind of lean to that side cause it would help my character concept ;)
...but for the sake of our collected sanities I think it should be disallowed. Because in my minds eye I see a monstrosity of a maneuver master monk / synthesist (lvl 7 / 13), with a huge eidolon and 6 arms doing something like 10 attacks a round, each causing 3d8+25 dmg or something of that magnitude. And it kind of makes me shudder...
@Archaiek: I must've miscalculated - he cannot have 6 arms at that level, but only 4 and a bite. That's 5 attacks - these are taken as secondary attacks (-5 to hit). He then has 3 normal unarmed strikes (bab 15), and a free maneuver which he uses to trip his opponent (almost certainly working) giving him an extra AoO - so all in all 9 attacks.
...the strength of the multiclass is an insane AC and the ability to once per round doing a combat maneuver that is an almost auto-succes.
Disclaimer: I haven't played anywhere near that level. So the above is purely theorycrafting. What I HAVE played is my own char which is a Synthesist 2 / Maneuver Master Qing-gong Monk 6. His AC is insane, his saves are good, his HP very good, he can just about auto-trip anything his own CR (and has a 45% chance to trip an adult black dragon at CR+3, with a CMD of 37) - but his damage output is not so great. Its getting better, but still not at all up to par with the others in the group :)
I would assume that Feral Combat Training would let you do unarmed strike damage with claws (that sounds like the whole point of the feat), but I'm pretty sure you can't combine unarmed (or armed) strikes with natural attacks. I thought I read somewhere you couldn't, but I don't have my books with me right now. I'd recommend checking the PFSRD.
You can, it's in the combat section. Quote from the PRD
"You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack."
SKR states in the FAQ that FCT allows you to use natural attacks "as if it were a monk weapon". That leads me to the conclusion that the natural attack does not deal Unarmed Strike damage - otherwise he would have written "as if it were an unarmed strike".
Bestiary p. 302 also makes it quite clear that the natural attacks should always be treated as secondaty and therefore incur the -5 attack penalty and 1/2 Str. FCT makes no dispensation with regard to this.
EDIT: FCT appears to be used with FoB, Stunning Fist and some of the "monk feats" of UC. Your character, Derwalt, simply does not appear to be the target audience for FCT.
The part that says "allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon" makes me think that they then suggest that you would use the damage of the natural attack, as that is also what you do with a monk weapon (substituting the weapons damage for the unarmed strike damage).You know, I thought I had read this thread before, but apparently not particularly closely...
On this want to point out that the "monk" property simply allows you to use a weapon during a FoB, it conveys no other special properties...
Further, I want to point out that to qualify for a monk's uas damage progression, a natural weapon must use an iterative attack because it is being treated as manufactured.
And voska so kindly pointed out, you also have to choose between sacrificing a potential natural attack (at -5/.5 str) as that limb/attack was used to make a manufactured/iterative attack.
Also, bump for FAQs
edit: corrected 'natural attack' to 'natural weapon'
I think you hit the nail on the head.
Thank you all for your input, and I think I agree for now :)
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A bit thread resurrection here: I feel like the original question wasn't answered clearly. The way I understood it (and actually one I'm looking the answer to):
If a level 1 monk character with Feral Combat Training (claw) is making a _single_ claw (1d4) attack, can he use the Feral Combat Training effect "..as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike." to apply the monk improved unarmed strike damage to the claw, thus having the claw deal 1d6 damage?
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No. Use claw damage.
Is this because the monk Unarmed Strike is not considered an effect that augments unarmed strike? The concept "effect that augments" is a bit fuzzy here, what does that mean?
Obviously, I think that it should, and Oterisk's guide to dragon disciple implies this as well ( https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cmswe4jHDb1Vcm3oQME3mxUelX_WzKbQ8r9_1mw QS6M/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1 ) so I would like to have a bit more clarification than blunt, authoritative-looking (but not from authority) "No.".