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Everyone once in while a person will present a proposition. For whatever reason and through various means such as mathematical analysis, theory craft, and actual gameplay the community(90%+) will basically disagree.
The poster then wants to get upset, and accuse the dissenters of being power games, being upset, or always wanting to be right. If you are going to post here accept the that people might disagree with you. If they provide valid, and logical responses then address the responses. Otherwise there is no point to the discussion.
I had several PM's with a poster who did not know the rules well, nor had a good concept of balance. Not being able to counter any statements they got upset.
Other times people will be in a post and say ____ is broken, only to countered by idea X, Y, and Z. Instead of saying "thanks", or trying to present a counter they get upset.
While everyone likes to be correct the point of the discussion isn't to be correct, but to share ideas. If I am correct as an example then good for me. I have probably just educated someone. If they are correct then good for them. I just got educated, and I am now a better gamer for it.
Don't take things personally people. Closing your mind and trying to "win" the argument is not going to help you with whatever you came here to discuss.
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You're totally wrong dude.
You're totally wrong dude.
Classic!
I am putting your name in for submission to Time Magazine, for the cover of their "Smartass of the Year" issue.
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You're totally wrong dude.Classic!
I am putting your name in for submission to Time Magazine, for the cover of their "Smartass of the Year" issue.
I can't help it, "smartassery" is a class skill for me, and I've invested full ranks into it. Plus I've taken "Skill focus: smartassery" twice (yeah, I know it's illegal, but God houseruled it for me).
Did someone bump that "Rogues are overpowered!" thread?
Did someone bump that "Rogues are overpowered!" thread?
No, but I know a poster would if they knew about it. :)
"When it's your job to be right, you're never wrong."
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{important stuff}
Agreed. Plus, I know who you mean.
Something always to be remembered is that:
1) You should always try to argue with dignity and civility (yes, I know that's hard sometimes)
2) Wining an argument is not the same thing as being right
I don't think I've been saying too many crazy things lately...
Trust me, Cheapy, it wasn't you!
That's the thing- it's basic human nature to try to win an argument. It's almost never about finding the truth, it's about "winning".
I apologise... unless i'm not the one being talked about.
if that's the case then i'm sorry for what i'm GOING to do. (evil cackle engaged)
If it's me.......I don't apologize.
Con drain or you can agree to become my personal executioner*. If you agree report to the Mr.Fishy Fan club thread and start working.
*Just to be clear you are not to ever try to execute me.
Everyone once in while a person will present a proposition. For whatever reason and through various means such as mathematical analysis, theory craft, and actual gameplay the community(90%+) will basically disagree.
The poster then wants to get upset, and accuse the dissenters of being power games, being upset, or always wanting to be right.
Wow, do I ever know what you are talking about. On the specific and on the general, both.
In my experience encountering this, it's usually from a new poster that isn't used to a community where civility and proper discourse is the norm (this messageboard and a few others).
Possibly they come from other message boards (D&D or otherwise) where they have to put up this confrontational "armor" to 'fit in' or be responded to.
Or, it could potentially be that this is the first time they've decided to post in such a forum, and are only used to having discussions in person with people who all agree with them. Facing disagreement for the first time can be shocking and elicit more emotional types of response.
Especially if they encounter very thorough replies. While responders are replying as completely as possible, so as to avoid confusion in this complex game, the backlash of examples and point by point refutation can seem aggressive to the uninitiated, and cause far more hostile feelings than intended.
It can be a learning experience..
It's been over a decade so it's kind of fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure I'd be lying if I didn't go through the same learning experience when I started posting on forums online.
I'm still trying to learn when to stop trying to convince the other person, even when the community is on my side. Even in a civil discussion, I'm not yet recognizing the stalemate soon enough and going a few too many posts in the back and forth. Ah well...
A while ago there was a thread here which began something like
"I say something outrageous that 95% of people will disagree with."
It was quickly responded to with
"I disagree venomously citing three not quite correct rules from RAW"
The OP responded quickly with
"You are not playing to the spirit of the game..."
And dozens of other people joined in the game identifying things that irritated them about the way people behaved on the discussion boards.
And so the lengthy lengthy highly amusing self referential post modernist thread went on. It's probably still out there.
Hah! I think that was my thread. Too bad no one quite got the intent of the thread.
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"When it's your job to be right, you're never wrong."
I can be wrong on my coffee break according to union RAW.
Hah! I think that was my thread. Too bad no one quite got the intent of the thread.
LOL. I remember that now. I think I favorited that post. IIRC you made it after some guy got mad because nobody was agreeing with him.
Someone is wrong on Teh Internets. Gah!
Also, I think something that needs to be reinforced from your post, is that the point of a discussion is definitely to learn something.
When I'm proven wrong about something (especially in the factual rules way), I try and make a point to reply that I was wrong and have changed my thoughts on the subject to include the new information.
It's not as hard as it used to be. Perhaps marriage and now two kids has taught me the harder side of humility's lessons, and eating crow on a website forum feels like small potatoes by comparison.
You're totally wrong dude.
Are you wearing a cardigan and drinking a White Russian? Dude, is that you?
I admit, it has happened to me. Mostly in the threads regarding people wanting stuff nerfed. I'm always on the side of unlimited power, never mind the consequenses (that's for GM's to sort out)
Hah! I think that was my thread. Too bad no one quite got the intent of the thread.LOL. I remember that now. I think I favorited that post. IIRC you made it after some guy got mad because nobody was agreeing with him.
That was a different thread than what I was talking about, but I guess that does qualify...hm.
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Knowing your cognitive biases especially confirmation bias helps you not too take it personally or too seriously. (good primer)
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While everyone likes to be correct the point of the discussion isn't to be correct, but to share ideas. If I am correct as an example then good for me. I have probably just educated someone. If they are correct then good for them. I just got educated, and I am now a better gamer for it.
Don't take things personally people. Closing your mind and trying to "win" the argument is not going to help you with whatever you came here to discuss.
Huh. I must have missed the thread which prompted this one... *shrugs* Probably a good thing. I get irritated often enough by stupidity and obstinacy on the internet without going looking for more.
Still, I agree with the points you're making in this post. :)
Next time I come across a poster like that. I am just going to say, "you're right". That way they get to hear what they want to hear, and I get to help someone that wants to be helped.
I should have stopped after his 2nd imaginary insult. I think that will be my limit now.
Next time I come across a poster like that. I am just going to say, "you're right". That way they get to hear what they want to hear, and I get to help someone that wants to be helped.
I should have stopped after his 2nd imaginary insult. I think that will be my limit now.
Wraith, as a recent thread has shown me, bending over backwards to provide the most constructive commentary possible, liberally sprinkled with expressions of admiration and appreciation for the poster's skills and contributions, and delivered with the least controversial text possible...
... still doesn't work.
Lol I had a thread like this too. I can't believe it went as far as PMing though, that's just ludicrous.
EDIT: though my thread was actually about houserules
Next time I come across a poster like that. I am just going to say, "you're right". That way they get to hear what they want to hear, and I get to help someone that wants to be helped.
I should have stopped after his 2nd imaginary insult. I think that will be my limit now.Wraith, as a recent thread has shown me, bending over backwards to provide the most constructive commentary possible, liberally sprinkled with expressions of admiration and appreciation for the poster's skills and contributions, and delivered with the least controversial text possible...
... still doesn't work.
Hey now, even if doesn't help the person who feels insulted no matter what, it can still help those who happen along the thread and read the post and suddenly understand something more completely...
Lol I had a thread like this too. I can't believe it went as far as PMing though, that's just ludicrous.
The PM'ing and the thread everyone was talking about are two different posters. One of them is still posting, but the PM'ing has stopped. The PM'er was not really rude though, just got to the point where I was SMH.
The guy in the synthesis thread would say something wrong. You would correct him, and he would get upset.Oh well, not my game, not my problem. :)
Hey now, even if doesn't help the person who feels insulted no matter what, it can still help those who happen along the thread and read the post and suddenly understand something more completely...Next time I come across a poster like that. I am just going to say, "you're right". That way they get to hear what they want to hear, and I get to help someone that wants to be helped.
I should have stopped after his 2nd imaginary insult. I think that will be my limit now.Wraith, as a recent thread has shown me, bending over backwards to provide the most constructive commentary possible, liberally sprinkled with expressions of admiration and appreciation for the poster's skills and contributions, and delivered with the least controversial text possible...
... still doesn't work.
That is true. I learned the eidolons* did not get their own feats and skills in the synthesis thread. I had never really looked at them before then.
*The ones that were gained from the synthesis archetype.
Yeah, sadly, I kinda saw the flags in that topic when on both this forum and ENWorld, he exaggerated his anger about the whole ordeal (something about company bigwigs and never buying from Paizo again). Sadly, I know next to nothing about Summoners so the most I could do was post errata about it.
It always seems debates here quickly descend into arguments. It is a shame too, since I like the hobby and I really try to like the fans.
On a happier note, ever since I came here, I learned the meaning of the word verisimilitude from all of the arguments about it :)
I am afraid I must admit that I have been involved in less than productive exchanges in the past. I am truly trying to change that, but as I pointed out in another thread, I've got smartassery as a class skill, full ranks and took "skill focus: smartassery" twice... So even on a 1 I still deliver some serious smartassery...
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Next time I come across a poster like that. I am just going to say, "you're right".Doing so will just add it to the list of code-words meaning "You're stupid" (right alongside "willfully obtuse", "small-minded", etc).
I actually use "you're right" when I am serious so I can't use that one.
Darn it Jiggy stop rules lawyering me. :)
If we can vent in general about how arguments go on the forums...
If you disagree with me, fine. But if I make several important ports, please don't snip out everything I say except half a sentence and then respond to that half a sentence out of context, trying to prove me "wrong" (and utterly ignoring all the other points I make).
I don't need my posts to be responded to word by word, sentence by sentence (that's also a great way to take things out of context) but leaving something of a whole argument there would be nice, unless it really truly is irrelevant to the discussion as it progresses.
My favorite is stuff like...
I think the bard should have an ability to enchant cake (mmm cake...) to make people fall asleep when they eat it.
And this turns into
I hate cake, and you're stupid!
mmm cake...
And then from there, the discussion goes on between others about the virtues and flaws of cake-eating, and any discussion of new bard abilities gets lost.
(And yes, I know I just invited the entire forum to snip out my entire post except the word "cake" (or whatever) and then discuss it. Carry on.)
With regards to the OP, yes, if you're asking for commentary on an idea you had, you should be open to criticism. It's amazing how many people are just hoping for a "yes I agree!" and are amazed that people might disagree -- in a forum full of GAMERS of all places, because of course we always agree with each other 100% of the time. ()
Yeah, sometimes you just need to say, "Yes, sir, you are right, so why are we having this conversation?"
What I find even more frustrating is when someone ASKS for help or suggestions... begs and PLEADS for them, even...
And then people respond with extremely reasonable, well thought out advice and suggestions...
And the OP who begged and pleaded for help proceeds to insult every person who offered help and tell them why they're "wrong."
Perhaps a similar stock response should be come up with. "Yes, you're right, we're all stupid, and you should continue to suffer as you have been because we are clearly incapable of helping you." Eh, too lengthy...
I just invited the entire forum to snip out my entire post except My favorite reasonable, well thought out advice.
Here, here!
Perhaps a similar stock response should be come up with. "Yes, you're right, we're all stupid, and you should continue to suffer as you have been because we are clearly incapable of helping you." Eh, too lengthy...
And thus YYRWAYSCSYHBBWACIODY was born.
... yeah, actually that's a bit too much of a mouthfull as well.Maybe something short and to the point like "Stupid People have feelings too" (SPHFT) or "Try listening, it may help" (TLIMH) or... (walks off into the distance, still blabbering incoherently about meaningless abreviations.)
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There are no perfect threads.
When we die, the astral honey badger will weigh our constructive posts against the useless bickering, and upon this she will base her decision whether to admit us to the land of eternal gaming, or to condemn us to yet another cycle of mortal punishment in the mundane world.
There are no perfect threads.
When we die, the astral honey badger will weigh our constructive posts against the useless bickering, and upon this she will base her decision whether to admit us to the land of eternal gaming, or to condemn us to yet another cycle of mortal punishment in the mundane world.
i just found religion.
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I find it's usually the "usual suspects" driving off the 99% of us lurkers who might have something constructive to say. Gotta drive up that post count!
My boredom has to overcome my disgust of what passes for debate around here before I manage to post anything these days. It's totally not worth it.
