Im not trying to spam this board I swear!
Anyway, I am teasing the idea of my wife playing a conjurer to make bad zones and I thought she could use her superior intellect to become an alchemy crafter.
A while back someone suggested using your familiar to drop tanglefoot bags and I wanted to ask about the logistics of that.
I do have one restriction though - my wife would want a cute and cuddly companion to do this if possible, and I'd like her to be able to do it starting at level one if possible.
I thought it would be funny if her familiar was a bouncing ferret (using weasel rules) and near as I can tell nothing says a weasel can't carry bags around and throw them. In fact with their 3 strength they should be able to carry two bags before encumbrance.
Am I wrong in this thought?
And how would you optimize using your familiar with this strategy?
near as I can tell nothing says a weasel can't carry bags around and throw them.
Well, what says they can? I can't imagine at all a weasel being able to throw a bag 5' away =/
near as I can tell nothing says a weasel can't carry bags around and throw them.Well, what says they can? I can't imagine at all a weasel being able to throw a bag 5' away =/
Maybe I have a crazy imagination, but I could see it, at least assuming it was smart enough to know it can do it.
You know, if it like had it in its mouth and spun around to get some sling force behind it.
10 lbs seems like a unrealistic light load for a weasel to carry in real life, but that's what the rules say a 3 strength can do...
Im not trying to spam this board I swear!
Anyway, I am teasing the idea of my wife playing a conjurer to make bad zones and I thought she could use her superior intellect to become an alchemy crafter.
A while back someone suggested using your familiar to drop tanglefoot bags and I wanted to ask about the logistics of that.
I do have one restriction though - my wife would want a cute and cuddly companion to do this if possible, and I'd like her to be able to do it starting at level one if possible.
I thought it would be funny if her familiar was a bouncing ferret (using weasel rules) and near as I can tell nothing says a weasel can't carry bags around and throw them. In fact with their 3 strength they should be able to carry two bags before encumbrance.
Am I wrong in this thought?
And how would you optimize using your familiar with this strategy?
Weasel(Ferret) is a Tiny Animal with 3 STR... Looking at Core Rules a tiny Creature is 1/2 on the list so Light load is up to 5 pounds..
A Tanglefoot bag is 4 pounds... If the weasel is carrying (does it have a belt or bacpack to carry? Its a Quadruped so if its using one of its legs to carry items a Dm might rule its movement rate is hindered) 2 Tanglefoot bags it is Medium Encumbered.
Honestly you should never use a Familiar for Combat... alteast not at level 1. However, If the Dm does allow this... perhaps training/commanding the Weasel to pop Healing Potions down your throat would suit the Wizard better than throwing a 10 foot range Tanglebag that weighs almost as much as the Weasel itself? idk
That half weight rule was something I was expecting but didn't find. I guess lugging around one bag at a time is the way to go.
Hmm... I am going to argue that by using its mouth the weasel would have all it's legs.
Anyway, what are your recommendations for familiars other than the weasel?
What about with improved familiar starting at level 3?
On a related note (sorry to hijack the thread a little, krunch), would you guys say that a monkey familiar could toss the rocks from Magic Boulders (level 2 non-core wizard spell - transforms 1/level pebbles into boulders when you throw them) the full distance, with a strength of 3 and a dex of 17?
Haha, good question.
My personal response would be "yes, and that's probably why it's not a core spell."
I wish my wife didn't hate monkeys because there's hardly an argument that that one can't toss around alchemy bags...
In my experience most GMs have an "unspoken gentlemen's agreement" about familiars which goes something like this: "If your familiars don't enter combat, I won't kill them."
I suppose your GM here could be more generous than most, but if one of my players had familiars tossing tanglefoot bags, that familiar is going to suddenly find itself in a world of trouble.
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On the other hand, I and a few other GMs I know generally admire creativity, as long as it's not game-breaking. If you can come up with a plausible, neat delivery system for a familiar, and are willing to risk it getting beat up a bit, go for it! But it should probably be something other than "run up and huck it at them." Think of how far a child can throw a softball, then divide that by about 50 for how far a furret can fling a 4 lb bag.
Reynard, and some of us GMs play our NPCs as if they are actually trying to win. And the creativity we reward is generally the sort of creativity that is actually clever and useful as opposed to "fun and cute."
Different strokes for different folks I suppose.
That half weight rule was something I was expecting but didn't find. I guess lugging around one bag at a time is the way to go.
Hmm... I am going to argue that by using its mouth the weasel would have all it's legs.
Anyway, what are your recommendations for familiars other than the weasel?
What about with improved familiar starting at level 3?
Carrying the item in its mouth is ok... but How is a Weasel going to "Throw" the item? With its Mouth? Or its Paw? I just don't see this happening..
If I was a DM I would give the Weasel a -4 penalty to throw the item.. If this was something out of the ordinary and unique circumstance (Whole party is ambushed by Kobolds.. and the familiar grabs its dying Master's Tanglefoot bag and uses it to save him/her,ect).
But doing this as a normal thing... no.. Familiars are not exactly like Animal Companions (like the Druid's Ape... which becomes Large at Level 4)
In my experience most GMs have an "unspoken gentlemen's agreement" about familiars which goes something like this: "If your familiars don't enter combat, I won't kill them."
I suppose your GM here could be more generous than most, but if one of my players had familiars tossing tanglefoot bags, that familiar is going to suddenly find itself in a world of trouble.
This is the same thing my DM has said.. We rarely have to roll saving throws for our Familiars,ect... infact my last campaign I had my Owl familiar stay with the horses whenever we went into a Dungeon in Kingmaker
Pfft, that's no fun if all your familiar does is provide you a minor bonus...
It is an intelligent member of the party and it deserves a place!
Not sure why you would choose familiar over item bond if you're not going to do anything with it.
Yeah, it costs money to replace your dead buddy, but unlike previous editions the familiar dying isn't going to kill the wizard.
I used a raven familiar to drop alchemist's fire on some goblins in a RotRL PbP at first level. Worked out quite well and when it was done, it flew back to me and out of harm's way.
Perhaps make it a bird of some sort, and drop them from above.
Then it won't have to enter melee range and you don't have to worry about 'how can it throw?'
"It's not a question of where it grips it! It's a simple matter of weight ratios!"
Perhaps make it a bird of some sort, and drop them from above.
Then it won't have to enter melee range and you don't have to worry about 'how can it throw?'
Yes I will have to convince her a swallow (raven) is the best option.
Maybe two ravens, with a string between them...
Maybe two ravens, with a string between them...
Heh.
They do have one less str than the weasel. I think that makes light load 4 lbs though...
So... are there any specific rules for flight carrying capacity? Or is it assumed if you are a flyer, if you can pick it up, you can fly with it?
Of course that's absurdly ridiculous, but RAW is RAW.... Just wondering if there is anything specific about flying with loads.
Good ol' RAW. Once you hit 120 hp you can jump off any cliff without dying among so many other wonderful things.
In this case though it's almost appropriate to just say "a wizard did it... All of it."
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Howdy folks!
I just had to chime in here because I like the idea of familiars being valuable party members but there are a few things to consider:
1.) Why would you want your familiar to seek out danger? The idea is that you actually like your familiar and don't want it to get hurt. "Here little guy go drag this bag over to that mean-looking orc and throw it in his face. I'm sure he won't try to squash you..."
2.) The familiar (almost any familiar) would take -4 attack penalty for using a weapon-like object that it is not proficient with. At the moment I can't find the rule for weapon-like items matching a proficiency but I know it's there. Also, there is a size problem, a normal tanglefoot bag isn't the correct size for a Tiny-sized critter. I'll go with another -4 (possibly a -2) attack penalty for that. If the familiar wants to roll out there with a -8 (or -6) to attack, I'd probably allow it.
3.) Why isn't scouting a valuable skill for the familiar to do? Most familiars are small and can fit into places that their masters can't and a scroll of Speak with Animals isn't so difficult to come by (though may take a UMD to activate if a fellow PC can't) Also as time goes they gain the ability to talk with other animals and with you. There are many non-combat options for a familiar to contribute.
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents.
-S
Is there a proficiency involved with throwing alchemy objects?
And this is mostly me trying to really justify the improved familiar feat - if the familiar can make himself into extra actions in combat, that makes the familiar amazing.
I like the idea of doing it sooner than later, but I did ask about alternative familiar options as well.
As a former Ferret owner I can attest that they can drag things at high speed that are their size or larger. I can imagine my ferret, with more intelligence, could spin and toss something. Though ten feet seems far. Then again it's a fantasy game. So *shrug*
Is there a proficiency involved with throwing alchemy objects?
And this is mostly me trying to really justify the improved familiar feat - if the familiar can make himself into extra actions in combat, that makes the familiar amazing.
I like the idea of doing it sooner than later, but I did ask about alternative familiar options as well.
I don't think alchemical objects need a proficiency to throw, as they are not weapons. Might be wrong about that though.
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Also note you can put range:personal spells on your familiar... somewhere out there is a swell little thread highlighting some things you might try.
As a former Ferret owner I can attest that they can drag things at high speed that are their size or larger. I can imagine my ferret, with more intelligence, could spin and toss something. Though ten feet seems far. Then again it's a fantasy game. So *shrug*
Right, in real life I don't take up a five-foot square.
Is there a proficiency involved with throwing alchemy objects?
And this is mostly me trying to really justify the improved familiar feat - if the familiar can make himself into extra actions in combat, that makes the familiar amazing.
I like the idea of doing it sooner than later, but I did ask about alternative familiar options as well.
I don't think alchemical objects need a proficiency to throw, as they are not weapons. Might be wrong about that though.
***
Also note you can put range:personal spells on your familiar... somewhere out there is a swell little thread highlighting some things you might try.
When I am not at work using my iPhone I will have to search for this thread.
As a former Ferret owner I can attest that they can drag things at high speed that are their size or larger. I can imagine my ferret, with more intelligence, could spin and toss something. Though ten feet seems far. Then again it's a fantasy game. So *shrug*Right, in real life I don't take up a five-foot square.
Do you take up a ten foot cube? ;-) I've seen those people. They shop at Walmart on scooters. Diet coke seems to be a favored product choice.
When I am not at work using my iPhone I will have to search for this thread.Is there a proficiency involved with throwing alchemy objects?
And this is mostly me trying to really justify the improved familiar feat - if the familiar can make himself into extra actions in combat, that makes the familiar amazing.
I like the idea of doing it sooner than later, but I did ask about alternative familiar options as well.
I don't think alchemical objects need a proficiency to throw, as they are not weapons. Might be wrong about that though.
***
Also note you can put range:personal spells on your familiar... somewhere out there is a swell little thread highlighting some things you might try.
Get a brownie, then you effectively have a tiny person.
Get a brownie, then you effectively have a tiny person.When I am not at work using my iPhone I will have to search for this thread.Is there a proficiency involved with throwing alchemy objects?
And this is mostly me trying to really justify the improved familiar feat - if the familiar can make himself into extra actions in combat, that makes the familiar amazing.
I like the idea of doing it sooner than later, but I did ask about alternative familiar options as well.
I don't think alchemical objects need a proficiency to throw, as they are not weapons. Might be wrong about that though.
***
Also note you can put range:personal spells on your familiar... somewhere out there is a swell little thread highlighting some things you might try.
For some reason in my mind I did not think of the monster but rather that this was a very odd extension of your last post.
So... are there any specific rules for flight carrying capacity? Or is it assumed if you are a flyer, if you can pick it up, you can fly with it?
Of course that's absurdly ridiculous, but RAW is RAW.... Just wondering if there is anything specific about flying with loads.
Not by RAW.. Pathfinder uses STR only for encumbrance.. and if the creature is Biped or Quadruped.. Bestiary has nothing along with CORE rules about encumbrance and Flying.. Most Dm's Houserule Quadruped's as Bipeds when flying.. unless they have more than 2 Wings or Fly spells..
The Fly spell states you can be at maximum encumbrance for Flying.. but that is a spell..
So a Dragon.. which is a Quadruped and usually have high Strength, can carry LOTS of stuff.. even while flying..
Your Fly speed is reduce just like your ground speed when encumbered.. so a Raven with a STR 2 has the following encumbrance:
Light Load =anything 3 pounds or less = 40 fly(average)
Medium Load= 4 - 6 pounds = 30 Fly Speed(Average)
Heavy Load = 7-10 Pounds =30 Fly Speed (Average)
So a Raven carrying a Tanglefoot bag (that weighs more than the Raven) is in Medium Load and flying at 30..
If I'm Dming though that Raven is going to have to make a Fly check or -4 penalty for throwing/dropping something is basically same size as the Raven itself.
Heh...
So a Hawk has a 6 strength, which basically means he can carry 2 Tanglefoot Bags by raw no problem.
He also has a 60 foot move.
Now I just gotta figure out a way to give him Flyby attack... I'd totally do this if we were playing a Witch (Which isn't completely out of the question, we'll see what my wife wants. I'm actually going to start looking at the witch now though...)
Edit: Actually, no I wouldn't do this if I were a witch. Beastbonded witches kind of suck (Except for level 10 which suggests you DON'T lose your spellbook if the familiar dies.) And witches actually have a substantial reason to protect their familiars... Yeah, wouldn't buff a Witches familiar to head into combat.
I've been looking at other threads too and it didn't occur to me to use things like Burning Gaze on the Familiar - that's just amazing.
I also like the idea of Wreath of Blades for when the Familiar isn't quite so squishy. Extra actions per round ftw!
I've been looking at other threads too and it didn't occur to me to use things like Burning Gaze on the Familiar - that's just amazing.
I also like the idea of Wreath of Blades for when the Familiar isn't quite so squishy. Extra actions per round ftw!
Yeah... even at first level there's some worthwhile shenanigans with spells like true strike or comprehend languages (to make the thing understand you before level 5).
Just keep your familiar's safety in mind, cuz once it's in play many gms will target it...
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A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor, which means a creature cannot fly while so burdened.
Check out the rules for barding:
Flying mounts can't fly in medium or heavy barding.
and combine that with the rules for encumbrance:
A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor.
So the tiny STR6 hawk could indeed carry two tanglefoots and maintain flight, but the raven could only carry a single flask of acid or fire.
