The Ranger in my group just hit level 4 and wants to buy a combat trained horse and make it his animal companion. Now I've looked through some of the previous threads on this topic, but I'm still terribly confused (we're pretty new to Pathfinder, so I might just not be getting what others take for granted). We're playing with just the CRB, so I'm unfamiliar with the APG cavalier mount rules, should that matter.
Anyway, the ranger and his horse animal companion:
1. Does he have to pick whether he gets a light or heavy horse, or doesn't it matter because animal companions are different from normal animals and there aren't light and heavy horse companions? Or are all horse companions heavy horses? Their combat damage seems to imply the latter.
2. Does it start with Endurance and Run as bonus feats in addition to the one feat from being an animal companion (because bestiary horses have these), or just the one?
3. If the animal companion receives combat training, what happens when the ranger hits level 7 and the companion gets combat training for free? Does nothing change, or can he pick any other general purpose training instead, or can he teach it any other six tricks?
4. If the companion receives combat training, it does not gain light armor profiency for free, correct?
5. I saw this mentioned in a thread but don't know if it was an opinion or a fact: Apart from the amount of time and skill checks it takes, is there a difference between teaching an animal the attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel tricks individually, and teaching it combat training? Does the latter imply the animal also isn't spooked by gunfire, etc.?
He can not take a combat trained horse. He must level it up naturally. If he buys a combat trained horse he is skipping some of the tricks he would have to teach it otherwise.
1. He gets the light horse. The companions deviate from the book in certain areas. The advanced version has the advanced template applied, and the AC does no template.
2. Nope. For Animal Companions you get what is in the druid section. As an example the tiger racial bonuses to certain skills are not gained by animal companion tigers. The player gets to choose a feat that he wants it to have, but no bonus feats.
3.Nothing happens by the rules, but allowing him to pick another trick in its place would not be game breaking.
4.They are the same thing. The only difference is that in one case all the tricks are taught at once.
Sorry, I edited my post (points 4 & 5) while you were already typing your reply.
He can not take a combat trained horse. He must level it up naturally. If he buys a combat trained horse he is skipping some of the tricks he would have to teach it otherwise.
I wouldn't let it get extra tricks, if he buys a combat trained horse he can only teach it the one bonus trick at first. But you're saying that animal companions always have to be wild animals with no previous training?
He gets the light horse. The companions deviate from the book in certain areas. The advanced version has the advanced template applied, and the AC does no template.
So it would even be wrong to think of it as a light horse that does the damage of a heavy horse. It's more like animal companions are their own kind of animals. Basically, I should ignore the bestiary entry of the animal in question? [Edit: Okay, got it.] It seems a bit strange that animal companions, at least when starting out, can be inferior to normal animals of their type.
You basically get what the animal companion block says you get. No extras.
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1. He gets an animal companion of the horse type, which is not identical to either a light or heavy horse from the Bestiary.
2. The horse starts with one feat as a 1st level animal companion. The player can choose this feat. The Bestiary horse has taken Endurance as its feat selection for a 2 HD creature. The companion horse doesn't get Run as a bonus feat.
3. When the ranger's horse reaches equivalent druid level of 4, its combat training replaces any tricks that it currently knows in the 6 slots available to it for INT 2. Bonus tricks are unaffected.
4. The FAQ confirms it doesn't.
5. A war-trained horse is not spooked by combat, so the rider doesn't have to make a Ride check to keep it under control. It can still be frightened by unfamiliar sights, sounds, smells, etc., which would include gunfire for the vast majority of mediaeval horses. Alkenstar horses or one that a gunslinger has ridden for some time might be exceptions. A combat-trained horse also treats its hooves as primary, not secondary, natural attacks.
Okay, so I'm perfectly clear on animal companions being their own deal. Thanks!
Two things I'm still confused about:
6. When you gain an animal companion, does it have to be a wild animal? As I said, the ranger wants to buy a combat trained horse and make it his companion. Is this possible, with the stats of the horse changing to those of a companion? Would the horse "forget" its training upon becoming a companion, or can it keep the tricks, with them counting against its allowed number of tricks? I don't see anything wrong with it, but I might not be aware of the ramifications and potential abuse, so I want to be sure before setting a precedent.
7. The automatic combat training (6 tricks) for horse companions at druid level 4. With INT 2, the horse can know 8 tricks at that point.
7a) If the horse knows 8 tricks which aren't part of combat training, does it now know those 8 plus combat training? Or does combat training replace 6 of them - whether you want to or not?
7b) If the horse already has combat training, does nothing change, or can it pick 6 additional tricks instead?
It just seems silly not to combat train the horse (if you want it to be trained), thinking "Oh, let's wait a couple of weeks, it'll suddenly get it, I just have to accept it can't fight until then". It also seems silly for the horse to suddenly forget something and be combat trained instead (especially if you don't want it to). So I'd say the combat training is in addition and doesn't count towards the tricks limit, and allows you to take other tricks when you get it for free, but again, I want to be sure this approach doesn't lead to potential abuse.
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6. It seems reasonable to allow this and to keep its combat training, since he is proposing to pay some amount of gold for the horse rather than getting it for free. However, you might want to review its value and balance with what you give other players, depending on how you choose to deal with its tricks.
6.You can't get a horse or any other animal with tricks and expect to keep them.
7a. No. Intelligence does not increase the number of bonus tricks.
7b. The horse can not already have combat training. The chart show how many bonus tricks the animal can have barring GM fiat.
6.You can't get a horse or any other animal with tricks and expect to keep them.
7a. No. Intelligence does not increase the number of bonus tricks.
7b. The horse can not already have combat training. The chart show how many bonus tricks the animal can have barring GM fiat.
Technically animal companions get 3 tricks per point of INT. 6 tricks in the case of INT 2, and then bonus tricks(from ranger/druid level chart) are added to the total. In summary since 'combat training' uses up 6 tricks even a level 1 horse animal companion can start with it.
So it should be no problem for the player to "buy" a horse, use the stats for the animal companion, and keep the tricks spent on combat training. The PC would still have to spend time teaching any bonus tricks after that point however.
I was incorrect, and I looked at the handle animal skill before I posted, but rules still don't allow for anything extra beyond an int of 2.
I am not saying it is an issue, but the book seems to assume a blank slate however, and I would hate to see the player thinking it is a rule as opposed it "it would be nice if it were allowed".
Uh, now I'm even more confused.
The Handle Animal skill says "An animal with an Intelligence score of 1 can learn a maximum of three tricks, while an animal with an Intelligence score of 2 can learn a maximum of six tricks."
It doesn't matter if the animal is a companion or not, correct?
From the druid description: "... the total number of “bonus” tricks that the animal knows in addition to any that the druid might choose to teach it (see the Handle Animal skill for more details ..."
So the horse companion of a level 1 druid can learn a total of 7 tricks, 6 for INT 2 + 1 bonus trick. Correct?
For my question 7. it doesn't matter if you can buy a trained animal or not. Let's say the character gets a wild horse and teaches it all tricks himself. The result is the horse has combat training plus two other tricks at druid level 3. Then at druid level 4 it gets combat training for free. What happens?
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For my question 7. it doesn't matter if you can buy a trained animal or not. Let's say the character gets a wild horse and teaches it all tricks himself. The result is the horse has combat training plus two other tricks at druid level 3. Then at druid level 4 it gets combat training for free. What happens?
It then has combat training, plus two other tricks. The Handle Animal skill explains (end of page 97): "Essentially, an animal's purpose represents a preselected set of known tricks .. [p. 98] The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal's previous purpose and any tricks it once knew". Note that the latter sentence specifically relates to training a standard INT 2 horse for combat, taking 6 tricks, that previously had the purpose of riding, which takes 3 tricks.
7 is correct.
Combat Training does not count as one trick though. It counts as all the tricks that it contains.
If you give the horse combat training, and it would get it anyway then you don't get anything since there are no rules for replacing combat training if you got it ahead of time. If I were the GM I would give you some free tricks in place of the combat training tricks, but that is not a rule.
It then has combat training, plus two other tricks. The Handle Animal skill explains (end of page 97): "Essentially, an animal's purpose represents a preselected set of known tricks .. [p. 98] The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal's previous purpose and any tricks it once knew". Note that the latter sentence specifically relates to training a standard INT 2 horse for combat, taking 6 tricks, that previously had the purpose of riding, which takes 3 tricks.
Got it, thank you!
If he just takes the Boon Companion feat and puts a point into the horse's Int, then AFAIK, the number of tricks it can know becomes irrelevant as the creature is now theoretically capable of understanding speech. Anybody in my group that gets an Animal Companion gets the creature's Int to 3 ASAP to make commanding them easier. I personally like to just keep boosting Int as much as I can so that I can give my companions complex commands.
It's not completely spelled out in RAW how to handle all of that though, so this may be completely useless to you.
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If he just takes the Boon Companion feat and puts a point into the horse's Int, then AFAIK, the number of tricks it can know becomes irrelevant as the creature is now theoretically capable of understanding speech. Anybody in my group that gets an Animal Companion gets the creature's Int to 3 ASAP to make commanding them easier. I personally like to just keep boosting Int as much as I can so that I can give my companions complex commands.
It's not completely spelled out in RAW how to handle all of that though, so this may be completely useless to you.
It may not be spelled out in RAW, but it is spelled out in the blog on Animal Intelligence. If giving credence to that blog, an animal companion with an Int of 3 or higher still requires tricks and Handle Animal to direct it. That rubs some people wrong.
You have plenty of answers on the rules for animal companion already, but I would second the idea of letting a player buy a combat trained horse to give a horse animal companion combat training early, exchanging 110 gp for six early tricks.
Cavalier and Samourai get for free combat training and light armor proficiency for their mount, which otherwise follows animal companion rules, at level one. Giving early combat training to your ranger's mount this way will also help prevent totally legit but extremely silly solutions such as buying a couple heavy warhorses (statistically superior for a ranger level 4, and maybe 5) to use for six weeks while teaching his animal companion the six tricks it needs to be used the same way.
Yeah, I let him do it exactly to avoid this situation, and because it seemed like a fair trade-off. His main reason to get a trained animal was that he correctly felt his character simply wouldn't have the time to train the companion, so a heavy warhorse would indeed have been the better pick. I already think the companion won't have much of an impact due to druid level -3, and I didn't want to make it worse. I also didn't want to set a precedent of not allowing trained animals to become companions because I can easily imagine future ranger characters of my players to get a horse or dog at level 1 or 2, grow attached to it, and wanting to make it the companion.
If he just takes the Boon Companion feat ...
We're only using the CRB for now, so it isn't an option. Also, no offense, but I see answers like this often on these forums, but I don't consider them particularly helpful since they only tell you how to circumnavigate the problem. In this particular case, I'm pretty sure they player wouldn't take Boon Companion even if he could simply because he doesn't care about his companion all that much (and/or because other feats are more important to him). And even if he could take it, it can't be the only solution.
I don't think my players realize the possible implications of raising the companion's INT to 3 yet, but I've already been reading about here in anticipation.
Well at any rate, there is no logical reason for an animal to lose training it already has. Animal companion "bonus tricks" are just that, bonuses.
So a horse with Int 2 can know 6 tricks, in addition to the bonus tricks granted by virtue of being an animal companion. You have that part correct (so that a 1st level druid's horse knows 7 tricks).
To answer your question on a horse companion gaining combat training as a 4th level companion: this is not a bonus trick, it is a "special quality." If the PC in question must have the combat training before 4th level via tricks (not a bad thing, honestly), or buying a combat trained horse to begin with, then it simply gains nothing special at 4th level. Unless a feature says otherwise (as in the case of some classes with bonus feats) you do not get to swap a feature out if you get it early.
If he does not want combat training that he will later get for free, it is again a 'special quality' and does not take up a feat, trick, or other resource. It is now a quality of the creature.
Is that more satisfactory in clearing it up... now that you have already done what you think was necessary...?
I already think the companion won't have much of an impact due to druid level -3, and I didn't want to make it worse.
I would still allow Boon Companion. Should be Core, IMO, because of this very issue. I would also go on about raising animal Intelligence scores, but this isn't the place.