We're thinking about giving this a serious go. I'm looking for advice from people who've played in or ran games with gestalt characters. Anything I need to look out for? Any good house rulings on making this smoother?
I am considering averaging saves and BAB. With hit points I've considered letting them roll both hit dice and keep the highest. Opinions?
I'm running Carrion Crown with two gestalt characters at the moment.
We use the following houserules:
Roll both hit dice, pick the highest as you mentioned.
Get base skill points from both classes.
No other changes from the gestalt rules.
(they level according to a variant of SKR's step leveling system)
Works great, though they need to be more careful since they're just two characters, albeit very powerful ones.
Conjurer/Mindchymist (the latter gives insane knowledge skills, which is quite fun)
Cleric/Gunslinger
I think it works fine with the rules from Unearthed Arcana.
The biggest issue I came across was multiclassing and prestige classes. The houserule that I made to deal with this is that if you wish to have a gestalt character, then you cannot multiclass or take prestige classes.
When planning adventures, I generally used published adventures and considered the pcs to be 2 levels higher than their gestalt level. I typically didn't have an issue.
Give it a try and see if you like it.
I'd limit multiclassing and do take the advice to not allow dual progression prestige classes. I allowed dual progression feats (ones that avance certain aspects / class features of two classes) because oftentimes they include unique abilities. Like Song of the White Raven not only stacks levels for Inspire Courage progression, it also let you use it as a swift action. Just don't allow level stacking to surpass character level...a good rule in general.
These were my rules for my gestalt game, you don't need to follow them, but I think they're good general guidelines. I strongly suggest handling skill points and hit points (take the better at each individual level) and BAB and base saves (running tally on each side for each; take the higher TOTAL from each side, DO NOT take the better at each individual level up, way too easy to cheat the system that way), though.
It was for a 3.5 game starting at level 3. Note: 32 point buy in 3E is about equal to 25 PB in pathfinder; I gave a tiny bit extra to help with multiple ability dependency, usually play at 32 PB. Also note favored class worked differently in 3E...very, very differently.
Characters are created using 34 point buy, and gain a free bonus feat at level 1. Starting gold is standard for level 3 and you cannot spend more than half of it on any one item.
Each character has six ability scores, which are purchased with point buy. After that, racial modifiers are added. The points costs are as follows, 34 points total:
Each 8 costs 0 points
Each 9 costs 1 point
Each 10 costs 2 points
11 costs 3 points
12 costs 4 points
13 costs 5 points
14 costs 6 points
15 costs 8 points
16 costs 10 points
17 costs 13 points
18 costs 16 points
If for some reason you have a non-ability (notated as "--") or it is always considered 0, you must spend 2 points on that score, as if you were paying for a 10.
For races/templates with a Level Adjustment (LA), you do not reduce your level. Instead, you reduce your starting point buy as follows. Racial HD take up "one side" of the gestalt.
LA +1: 26 points
LA +2: 18 points
LA +3: 11 points
LA +4: 00 points
For leveling up, the following apply:
Hit Points: Use the better HD at each level up, and add to your total hp. The first HD is maxed, after that, you can either roll (rerolling 1's) or take 3/4 the max result, as shown below (you also add your Con modifier at each level up):
∙d4: 3 hp each level
∙d6: 4 hp on even levels, 5 hp on odd levels
∙d8: 6 hp each level
∙d10: 7 hp on even levels, 8 hp on odd levels
∙d12: 9 hp each level
Skills: At each individual level, use the class with the higher amount to determine skill points gained.
Saves: Tally the base save bonus of each save on each side individually, using the best value for each. A Fighter 8 // Rogue 6/Assassin 2 has base saves of Fort +6, Reflex +8, Will +2.
BAB: As with saves, keep an overall tally for each side, and use whichever side gives the higher number at each level up. A Fighter 9/Kensai 4 // Monk 13 has BAB +12 on the first side, and BAB +8 on the second side, so his BAB is +12.
Entering a Prestige Class: Any class feature or caster/manifester/initiator requirements must be met by the class on the side you are multiclassing. A Cleric / Wizard would need to enter Archmage on his Wizard side, for example.
I'll check out the step leveling thing.
I thought about the multiclass problem. Fighter/rogue would be one class. Fighter/ranger would be another. This would stop them from getting favored class benefits. I'll discourage multiclassing unless it makes sense story wise.
Do you guys think averaging skill points, base attack, and saves will be an issue?
Stream, I think I'll make prestige classes take up both sides but give them a progression from one of their core classes to avoid problems.
We're thinking about giving this a serious go. I'm looking for advice from people who've played in or ran games with gestalt characters. Anything I need to look out for? Any good house rulings on making this smoother?
I am considering averaging saves and BAB. With hit points I've considered letting them roll both hit dice and keep the highest. Opinions?
The two games I feel were the most successful were both gestalt. I'm not a killer DM, and the games went to 6th and 7th level respectively, so that might need to be taken into account. One was a 3.5 game, also, but much of the advice still applies.
I ditched rolling for HP and just gave max every level. It's an artifact of when the entirety of character creation was a game of craps, and character mortality was a foregone conclusion (and was the de facto method of getting a second chance at character creation for a better character).
Monster CR is even less helpful than usual. +2 higher than you would normally use is a decent ballpark figure, but you will always need to check for "spike" damage capability, which can end up out-and-out killing much more easily thanks to hit point totals and defense mechanisms having lower raw numbers than the monster's abilities assume.
Yes, the characters will more likely have a "good save" or an extra defensive ability they wouldn't ordinarily have, but the ability still operates at 3rd level when the monster assumes 5th level, and is designed to challenge a specialist in that category. That said, you don't need to nerf the ability in any way, just be cautious about how often you use it, and how the players will deal with the fallout.
For the above reasons, I let best saves and BAB stand. Using stronger monsters means that the high saves are still challenged. Classes that usually have a gaping problem (Fighter's Will save, for example) rarely stack well with classes that have abilities that "plug the gap"; so many of their abilities either overlap or conflict that they are almost always missing out on more than they actually gain. (Both games were before UC and UM were out, so Archetypes may change this quite a bit.)
It will be hard to run a published adventure- you'll be doing so much mod-work on monsters and NPCs that it's a guideline at best. I pretty much always make my adventures custom (often from PC backstory), so I can't really give specifics.
I only used single-classed NPCs outside of the "important" ones (primary villains or longtime allies). Quicker to make, and it's all that's really needed 90% of the time. For the other 10%, you can "add in" one or two gestalt levels and single-class the rest, or just pick the extra abilities you want and throw them in, discarding the rest.
Wow, ninja'd during post. On the note of multiclassing and prestige classes:
I pretty much did what StreamOfTheSky did by having two progressions and taking the best. To keep track in my head, I would designate one progression as Primary and one as Secondary, based on what the concept of the character was. If an ability showed up in both progressions, only the best was taken- the two did not stack (mainly for Sneak Attack and Channel). If you multi-classed, you couldn't place the same class in both, even two kinds of the same class (different Bloodlines of Sorcerer, for example). Prestige Classes weren't a problem, but I had ruled that you could only ever have 1 PrC "going" at a time, and if it advances two kinds of spellcasting, it counts as levels for both progressions.
For Favored Class benefits, they still chose one class as normal. Half-elves cannot get more than one Favored Class benefit each level, but if they are advancing a level of either Favored Class, they get the benefit.
I was thinking gestalt monsters for important encounters. Like the minotaur king having 5 levels of fighter alongside his monster hitdice for example. A nymph gestalted with druid and so on.
I'm most likely going to end up with an inquisitor/alchemist, barbarian/fighter, gunslinger/ranger, and bard/rogue. I don't think I'll have to worry about abuse.
I have a player wanting to go barbarian/monk. Now I don't wanna discourage this. I know about the alignment restrictions, but I have no problem ignoring this. I am however considering taking away the monk AC and ki while raging. How do you all feel about this?
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I have a player wanting to go barbarian/monk. Now I don't wanna discourage this. I know about the alignment restrictions, but I have no problem ignoring this. I am however considering taking away the monk AC and ki while raging. How do you all feel about this?
I think that is reasonable. If he wants to use ki powers, or get a round of better AC while raging, he can take the Moment of Clarity rage power.
Our core group loves gestalting, because we get to try out class abilities twice as fast.
A couple things we have run into using Gestalt in adventure paths:
- Don't have more than 4 players in a PFRPG adventure path. The average party level goes up by about 25% when you have gestalt players (so 3 gestalt characters is about the right level for a 4-player campaign)and 4 gestalt is like having 5 players. If you go more, serious balance considerations need to be made for your bad guys/monsters.
- That being said, you will still need to give some monsters the advanced template (we also max monster hp), and big bosses we gestalt.
- - We are playing a 3 player gestalt campaign with Serpent's Skull, and the GM has been maxing HP, adding classes to bosses, as well as giving lower level mooks more AC or an extra level. It takes some practice to find the right balance for your party.
- I agree with Liam's list of allowables for characters. I would add that our group allows prestige classes but that consideration needs to be given that if they cannot have part of the prestige bonus (like sneak attack for assassins alongside the rogue class) that they get something else that level, like a normal class level or something. I worked something similar out with a Rogue/Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster.
Honestly though, most of our players stay away from the prestige classes because its not as good as two concurrent classes.
- One more thought/addition we made in our group, which may or may not be acceptable to all. We decided to allow players a feat every level as the normal allotment vs every other level. The reason being is that with two classes, it was extremely difficult to plan feats that would benefit both classes. We found it didn't overbalance as of yet and 3/4 of the group are GMs.
Sorry to kind of Hijack this thread, but can you gestalt with monsters as PCs? Using PF rules so the monster's CR = Level?
Martial artist is perfect.
Sorry to kind of Hijack this thread, but can you gestalt with monsters as PCs? Using PF rules so the monster's CR = Level?
you use the monster hit dice.
Oh ok. I'm in a gestalt campaign myself and the GM and one of the players are still hung up on 3.5 level adjustment. Its annoying and I'm trying to convince them that in PF there is no LA. Thanks though that is extremely helpful.
Sorry to kind of Hijack this thread, but can you gestalt with monsters as PCs? Using PF rules so the monster's CR = Level?you use the monster hit dice.
Depends on the monster. Many of them have completely jacked-up HD for their CR. Fey lowball it badly, undead can be low or high, giants can end up high, Dragons are low. Anything that is more of a copy of another monster with a template on it ends up low. It really takes more than just using HD alone, or even CR alone.
Monster Levels from either Savage Species or (better idea) Rite Publishing's Racial Paragon classes are a better bet. Only reason I'm not using Savage Species more is that the monster classes lack a good explanation for their progression.
Well basically I want to use serpentfolk, any ideas on how to do this? And if this is the wrong place, I started a thread here
I think gestalting to match a monster's CR is pretty safe. I'd save this for special encounters.