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In a recent adventure path, our cleric commanded a flying devil to 'fall' The devil failed it's will save, and fell to the ground as the spell commands. The ground being 200 feet below, the devil did not survive.
Now I'm not a rules lawyer, I just don't have the chops. But this kind of irked me. am I missing something in the rules here? I enjoyed the clever usage but I feel like something is not lining up here.
As a GM, I probably would have ruled that the devil would move normally towards the ground before falling prone rather than plummeting to its demise.
Still, there's nothing wrong with that use of the spell, per se; there are a variety of low-level spells that can be extra dangerous while flying (e.g. Ray of Enfeeblement, Hold Person, Animate Rope).
EDIT: One thing to note, from the Fly skill.
"Avoid Falling Damage: If you are falling and have the ability to fly, you can make a DC 10 Fly check to negate the damage. You cannot make this check if you are falling due to a failed Fly check or a collision."
So even if the devil fell 200 ft, a Fly check might be able to avoid the damage.
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See I would say a fly check may be in order, but the creature is commanded to fall... wouldn't that kind of cancel out any intention of self-preservation? It's will has been sufficiently squashed by the spell's power.
and the wording is that they are commanded to 'fall to the ground.'
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Actually, yeah, a Fly check is involved, now that I think of it. Here's the relevant rule:
Avoid Falling Damage: If you are falling and have the ability to fly, you can make a DC 10 Fly check to negate the damage. You cannot make this check if you are falling due to a failed Fly check or a collision.
Command isn't a failed Fly check or a collision, nor does it prevent the target from making a Fly check, so they should be able to negate their falling damage. For the devil, I'm assuming a DC 10 would be automatic.
Um, how on earth did your cleric make him or herself HEARD from 200' away to issue the Command? Unless they were flying, too. I mean, it is a language-dependent spell...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Um, how on earth did your cleric make him or herself HEARD from 200' away to issue the Command? Unless they were flying, too. I mean, it is a language-dependent spell...
Maybe he's an Evangelist? :)
Public Speaker: An evangelist gains Perform as a class skill. In addition, she is trained to project her voice with great skill and effect; the DC to hear her speak in difficult conditions is reduced by an amount equal to her class level plus her Charisma modifier (minimum 0).
Hmm at work so trying to remember exact way spell works. But can't they just command a creature to die or sleep and if they fail the save it would have had the effect he wanted and he would have been falling due to being unconsious and then been unable to even make a fly skill check? I mean after all how can you use a skill if you are not awake.
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Um, how on earth did your cleric make him or herself HEARD from 200' away to issue the Command? Unless they were flying, too. I mean, it is a language-dependent spell...Maybe he's an Evangelist? :)
Public Speaker: An evangelist gains Perform as a class skill. In addition, she is trained to project her voice with great skill and effect; the DC to hear her speak in difficult conditions is reduced by an amount equal to her class level plus her Charisma modifier (minimum 0).
The cleric must have been up there too. As Command has a range of "Close" or 25' +5'/2levels. (aka a level 20 cleric would be able to command something 75' away max).
Public speaker does not change the range of spells.
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For those who need:
Command
School enchantment (compulsion) [language-dependent, mind-affecting]; Level cleric 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one living creature
Duration 1 round
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
You give the subject a single command, which it obeys to the best of its ability at its earliest opportunity. You may select from the following options.
Approach: On its turn, the subject moves toward you as quickly and directly as possible for 1 round. The creature may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal.
Drop: On its turn, the subject drops whatever it is holding. It can't pick up any dropped item until its next turn.
Fall: On its turn, the subject falls to the ground and remains prone for 1 round. It may act normally while prone but takes any appropriate penalties.
Flee: On its turn, the subject moves away from you as quickly as possible for 1 round. It may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal.
Halt: The subject stands in place for 1 round. It may not take any actions but is not considered helpless.
If the subject can't carry out your command on its next turn, the spell automatically fails.
It says nothing about falling into something that would cause damage. In fact, it states that they can act normally while prone. I would think that the devil would attempt to drop as quickly and safely as possible.
Hmm at work so trying to remember exact way spell works. But can't they just command a creature to die or sleep and if they fail the save it would have had the effect he wanted and he would have been falling due to being unconsious and then been unable to even make a fly skill check? I mean after all how can you use a skill if you are not awake.
You're suggesting a first level spell can command someone to die, if they fail their save?
No, command specifically has a few different uses. You cant put someone to sleep, or give them a heart attack, or whatever the heck you think a 1st level spell should be capable of.
Actually, 'sleep' and 'die' both result in one round of unconsciousness.
And where in the text that Happler has so lovingly copied do you see that?
You get the choices of
'Approach, drop, fall, flee, or halt'
I dont see 'go unconscious, die, or sleep'
Hmm at work so trying to remember exact way spell works. But can't they just command a creature to die or sleep and if they fail the save it would have had the effect he wanted and he would have been falling due to being unconsious and then been unable to even make a fly skill check? I mean after all how can you use a skill if you are not awake.You're suggesting a first level spell can command someone to die, if they fail their save?
No, command specifically has a few different uses. You cant put someone to sleep, or give them a heart attack, or whatever the heck you think a 1st level spell should be capable of.
I was remembering the 3.5 rules for the spell. I have not used it in pathfinder yet. You used to be able to command a creature to die or sleep and it would go to sleep for 1 round or fall down thinking it was dead for 1 round. After the 1 round though it would snap out of it and be able to act normally. I guess Pathfinder did not bring those commands over.
And where in the text that Happler has so lovingly copied do you see that?
You get the choices of
'Approach, drop, fall, flee, or halt'
I dont see 'go unconscious, die, or sleep'
That's from previous editions of D&D (3.0 and earlier).
And where in the text that Happler has so lovingly copied do you see that?
You get the choices of
'Approach, drop, fall, flee, or halt'
I dont see 'go unconscious, die, or sleep'
'scuze me: haven't played a PF cleric yet, so hadn't noticed the change in the spell. 'Back in the day,' in older editions, command was less limited; among your options were to tell your target to sleep, or to die, and both would result in 1 round unconsciousness.
EDIT: ninja'd. A couple times.
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Can we get back to the original question? Is a flying creature commanded to fall vulnerable to falling damage? I think Benchak's solution is elegant but is there a more official ruling?
BTW, to answer the question ...
Q: How can a land-bound caster project his voice far enough to command a flying creature located 200' above a surface to fall?
A: The caster is standing on the edge of a sheer cliff or chasm; the flying creature is hovering just beyond the edge.
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Can we get back to the original question? Is a flying creature commanded to fall vulnerable to falling damage? I think Benchak's solution is elegant but is there a more official ruling?
BTW, to answer the question ...
Q: How can a land-bound caster project his voice far enough to command a flying creature located 200' above a surface to fall?
A: The caster is standing on the edge of a sheer cliff or chasm; the flying creature is hovering just beyond the edge.
Even if the caster is on the ground 200 feet away, it's still not that difficult to project your voice 200 feet. If no other modifiers are in play, it would be a DC 20 Perception for the target to hear you (base DC 0 plus 1 per 10' of distance). Can you stand at the goal line on a football field and shout loud enough to be heard by someone standing 60 yards away? If the air is relatively still, and there isn't any crowd noise, certainly.
Of course, that doesn't negate the problem of the close range of the spell requirement.
+1 for Fly check to avoid falling damage.
I would think that they would get a fly check after the 1st round, as they would normally only fall 150 ft. and then the Command would be over.
Falling Rate in the only place I was able to find it.
-TimD
RAW:
"Command (Enchantment [Compulsion])
Fall: On its turn, the subject falls to the ground and remains prone for 1 round. It may act normally while prone but takes any appropriate penalties...
...If the subject can't carry out your command on its next turn, the spell automatically fails."
Since the creature would be unable to fall prone on the ground from a height of 200 feet in a single round - remember, you aren't able to command it to FLY toward the ground, only to fall at a normal 'fall' rate - I would rule the spell automatically fails.
Now, if the creature were only, say, 100 feet of the ground, then the spell WOULD work, and the creature would take normal fall damage. Why? Because Command is a Compulsion spell; to quote the Special Abilities section on it:
"Compulsion is a different matter altogether. A compulsion overrides the subject's free will in some way or simply changes the way the subject's mind works. A charm makes the subject a friend of the caster; a compulsion makes the subject obey the caster."
So even though falling from a height of 100 feet would cause it harm, since it is a Compulsion the target would have no choice.
This seems to make sense. Would the creature still get to make a fly check to negate damage?
Based on the verbiage of other commands - for example, 'Approach', which specifies that the target takes the most direct path to you, regardless of provocation of AoOs - I'd say no; the compulsion seems to override the creature's sense of self-preservation.
Depending on how important the creature was to the game, I might allow a second Will check in this situation to then allow it a Fly check to negate, but as worded, probably not.