Eidolon Reach with Weapons Question.

[JJMJester]

Tried looking around at other posts on the message boards but didn't officially find the answer I was looking for, so thought I would just post my question. I have a Summoner in my game that just recently made changes to his Eidolon and gave it the following Evolutions (Level 6 Character).

Evolutions:(10 pts)

Large (4pts)
Ability Increase [str] (2pts)
Ability Increase [str] (2pts)
Reach (1pt)
Improved Natural Armor (1pt)

So my question is does the Large Size (Which gives his Eidolon 10ft Reach) stack with the additional 5ft reach from the evolution? He's now swinging a large sized great sword (3d6 Damage) with a 15. reach and I just wanted to make sure this is how it works?

Second Question - the Summoner's Eidolon only has one attack currently. Can the eidolon get more than one attack with the Greatsword? I understand that if the Ediolon can buy more limbs or tentacles, but is there a way to get more than just one attack with the same weapon? (This case the Large Greatsword).

Thanks for any help on clearing this up!

[Grick]

JJMJester wrote:

So my question is does the Large Size (Which gives his Eidolon 10ft Reach) stack with the additional 5ft reach from the evolution?

Yes, assuming it's a biped eidolon, as a large quadruped doesn't get natural reach.

JJMJester wrote:

the Summoner's Eidolon only has one attack currently. Can the eidolon get more than one attack with the Greatsword?

His attacks with manufactured weapons are based on his BAB. When the Eidolon reaches BAB+6 it can make two attacks with it's greatsword using the full-attack action.

At (Summoner) level 7, his Eidolon could make two attacks with a greatsword, and four attacks with other natural weapons that don't use arms (tentacles, bite, etc).

[Grick]

JJMJester wrote:

I have a Summoner in my game that just recently made changes to his Eidolon and gave it the following Evolutions (Level 6 Character).

Evolutions:(10 pts)

Large (4pts)
Ability Increase [str] (2pts)
Ability Increase [str] (2pts)
Reach (1pt)
Improved Natural Armor (1pt)

Also, that's not a legal build.

At 6th level he should have 9 evolution points. Is the extra from a feat or item?

And Large (Ex): "The summoner must be at least 8th level before selecting this evolution."

-edit- and I don't see Weapon Training on there, is he using the greatsword non-proficiently, or did he burn a real feat on it?

[Archaeik]

Ability Increase (Str or Con) costs 4 points if you have taken large or huge... and large requires level 8
(this is listed under the large evo)

Eidolons

Large wrote:

Spoiler:

An eidolon grows in size, becoming Large. The eidolon gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 bonus to its natural armor. It takes a –2 penalty to its Dexterity. This size change also gives the creature a –1 size penalty to its AC and on attack rolls, a +1 bonus to its CMB and CMD, a –2 penalty on Fly skill checks, and a –4 penalty on Stealth skill checks. If the eidolon has the biped base form, it also gains 10-foot reach. Any reach evolutions the eidolon possesses are added to this total. The eidolon must be Medium to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 8th level before selecting this evolution.

If 6 additional evolution points are spent, the eidolon instead becomes Huge. The eidolon gains a +16 bonus to Strength, a +8 bonus to Constitution, and a +5 bonus to its natural armor. It takes a –4 penalty to its Dexterity. This size change also give the creature a –2 size penalty to its AC and attack rolls, a +2 bonus to its CMB and CMD, 10-foot reach, a –4 penalty on Fly skill checks, and a –8 penalty on Stealth skill checks. If the eidolon has the biped base form, its reach increases to 15 feet (10 feet for all other base forms). Any reach evolutions the eidolon possesses are added to this total. These bonuses and penalties replace, and do not stack with, those gained from becoming Large. The summoner must be at least 13th level before selecting this option.

The ability increase evolution costs twice as much (4 evolution points) when adding to the Strength or Constitution scores of a Large or Huge eidolon.

edit: missed that bit too, but it's 2 MORE evo points for weapon training to get martial. If he's burning a feat, I'd argue he's better off getting a good exotic.

[JJMJester]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all of the updates to my posts, it's helping out alot lol. Here is the full info on the Summoner's Eidelon:

Level 6

Base Form: Biped

Feats:
Martial Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword)
Power Attack
Combat Reflexes

Evolutions:(10 pts. after claw refund)

Large (4pts)
Ability Increase [str] (2pts)
Ability Increase [str] (2pts)
Reach (1pt)
Improved Natural Armor (1pt)

Notes:
- Thanks for bringing to my attention the level requirement on "Large" Evolution
- Thanks for verifying that Natural Large size reach (10 ft) does stack with the Reach Evolution (5 ft).
- I have no idea where the extra Evolution point is coming from. I know the favored class bonus for Gnome Summoner (His race) only gives +1 HP to his Eidelon, not extra Evolution Points. I'll have to check with him to see where the extra point is coming from.
- I'll also bring up the extra cost for the Str/Con Evolution for being Larger size.

I'm still new to having a Summoner in the party and the player is still trying to get the hang of his class lol. Thanks for all the feedback so far, knew I would get results from the experts = )

[Grick]

JJMJester wrote:

Evolutions:(10 pts. after claw refund)

If he thinks he can get a refund on his Claws because he's not using them, that might be where the extra point came from.

As far as I know, there's no refund mechanic for the free evolutions. Even if you want Pincers to replace your claws, you still have to pay the evolution cost.

[JJMJester]

Grick wrote:

JJMJester wrote:

Evolutions:(10 pts. after claw refund)

If he thinks he can get a refund on his Claws because he's not using them, that might be where the extra point came from.

As far as I know, there's no refund mechanic for the free evolutions. Even if you want Pincers to replace your claws, you still have to pay the evolution cost.

I'm thinking most of this confusion is from the GM (Me lol) having a lack of understanding on the Eidolon. The Eidolon did have claws before and he made some major changes before our last session. I wanted to go over every detail about the Summoner's Eidolon before this next session so that's everything correct...at least my player got the joys of a large, 15 ft reach Eidolon for a couple of fights lol.

[JJMJester]

Grick wrote:

JJMJester wrote:

So my question is does the Large Size (Which gives his Eidolon 10ft Reach) stack with the additional 5ft reach from the evolution?

Yes, assuming it's a biped eidolon, as a large quadruped doesn't get natural reach.

JJMJester wrote:

the Summoner's Eidolon only has one attack currently. Can the eidolon get more than one attack with the Greatsword?

His attacks with manufactured weapons are based on his BAB. When the Eidolon reaches BAB+6 it can make two attacks with it's greatsword using the full-attack action.

At (Summoner) level 7, his Eidolon could make two attacks with a greatsword, and four attacks with other natural weapons that don't use arms (tentacles, bite, etc).

Hey Grick,

I was curious about the extra attacks with the Greatsword because I saw this under Summoner Eidolon BAB Entry -

BAB: This is the eidolon's base attack bonus. An eidolon's base attack bonus is equal to its Hit Dice. Eidolons do not gain additional attacks using their natural weapons for a high base attack bonus.

I thought the only way to get extra attacks with an Eidolon was to buy extra limbs/tentacles because the BAB Eidolon did not great it extra attacks as normally it would for Character classes....or am I completely wrong...again lol

[Mojorat]

one thing. unless you house rule it as a dm the reach evolution does not affect manufactured weapons. you have to specify an attack the eidolon has claws etc. even if it's on a limb that the claws are attached to it still doesn't help the great sword.

[Archaeik]

I'm not as savvy about where to find the various rules, but it says it right in the part you bolded

Eidolons do not gain additional attacks using their natural weapons for a high base attack bonus.

Manufactured weapons still gain iteratives normally.
(and the entry for multiattack under eidolon also specifically changes this IF the eidolon has only 1 natural weapon)

[JJMJester]

Mojorat wrote:

one thing. unless you house rule it as a dm the reach evolution does not affect manufactured weapons. you have to specify an attack the eidolon has claws etc. even if it's on a limb that the claws are attached to it still doesn't help the great sword.

So just to clarify, once the Summoner is the right level...

Large Size (10ft Reach)
Reach Evolution (5ft Reach)
Total Reach = 15ft

So the Reach Evolution has to applied to an actual natual attack of the Eidolon (Example: the bipeds Claw attack). So all of the bipeds claw attacks would have a 15ft reach but it would not have a 15th reach to use a two-handed Greatsword...correct?

[Archaeik]

Quote:

one thing. unless you house rule it as a dm the reach evolution does not affect manufactured weapons. you have to specify an attack the eidolon has claws etc. even if it's on a limb that the claws are attached to it still doesn't help the great sword.

is there a FAQ or errata I haven't seen?

The evolution does not restrict it to natural weapons.
If PFS disallows manufactured, that would be evidence too.

as a note, the reach evolution ALSO states one attack, which would limit it to 1 claw(ARM via a reasonable interpretation), yet I've seen you post that it's both Claws of the evo even though that isn't supported by RAW, only RAI

edit: RAW, this would also imply that a greatsword wouldn't work as it takes both arms

[JJMJester]

Archaeik wrote:

Quote:

one thing. unless you house rule it as a dm the reach evolution does not affect manufactured weapons. you have to specify an attack the eidolon has claws etc. even if it's on a limb that the claws are attached to it still doesn't help the great sword.

is there a FAQ or errata I haven't seen?

The evolution does not restrict it to natural weapons.
If PFS disallows manufactured, that would be evidence too.

as a note, the reach evolution ALSO states one attack, which would limit it to 1 claw(ARM via a reasonable interpretation), yet I've seen you post that it's both Claws of the evo even though that isn't supported by RAW, only RAI

edit: RAW, this would also imply that a greatsword wouldn't work as it takes both arms

Yeah, I'm trying to get a full understanding about what Evolutions will apply to and which one swill stack. I tried looking at other posts about similar questions on the messageboards but honestly it only got more confusing lol.

So for the record...

If you have two Claw attacks as a biped, you would need to take the Evolution Reach twice, once for each Claw attack to have reach. You would then be able to use the Great sword with reach, since both claw attacks have reach....is this all correct?

[Grick]

JJMJester wrote:

So the Reach Evolution has to applied to an actual natual attack of the Eidolon

Reach (Ex): "One of an eidolon's attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon's reach with that attack increases by 5 feet."

There is some DM interpretation here.

It does not say one natural attack.

It does not say one attack type.

Either are reasonable interpretations, as is choosing a greatsword attack.

-edit-
One argument for attack type is thus:
Improved Damage (Ex): "One of the eidolon's natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage..."

This correlates "one natural attack" with "one natural attack form" and could be used to show the intent behind reach was to choose a form. So Reach (claws) applies to every claw attack you have, regardless of limb.

[Archaeik]

You CAN'T take the reach evo twice.

Quote:

Each eidolon receives a number of evolution points that can be spent to give the eidolon new abilities, powers, and other upgrades. These abilities, called evolutions, can be changed whenever the summoner gains a new level, but they are otherwise set. Some evolutions require that the eidolon have a specific base form or the summoner be of a specific level before they can be chosen. A number of evolutions grant the eidolon additional natural attacks. Natural attacks listed as primary are made using the eidolon's full base attack bonus and add the eidolon's Strength modifier on damage rolls. Natural attacks listed as secondary are made using the eidolon's base attack bonus – 5 and add 1/2 the eidolon's Strength modifier on damage rolls (if positive). If the eidolon only has a single natural attack, the attack is made using its full base attack bonus and it adds 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with that attack, regardless of the attack's type.

Evolutions are grouped by their cost in evolution points. Evolution points cannot be saved. All of the points must be spent whenever the summoner gains a level. Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once.

RAI is most likely reach applies to 1 evolution, I'd let him have his claws, but w/e

edit: see this discussion
also this is more relevant to the topic, for ease of use

[Archaeik]

Grick wrote:

-edit-

One argument for attack type is thus:
Improved Damage (Ex): "One of the eidolon's natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage..."

This correlates "one natural attack" with "one natural attack form" and could be used to show the intent behind reach was to choose a form. So Reach (claws) applies to every claw attack you have, regardless of limb.

While I do suspect that is the [new] intent (esp given the example eidolons in UM), it effectively let's you multiply the value you get from 1 evo point.

It would give serpentine reach automatically on every bite they take.

How would it interact with tail slap/sting on the same tail? (RAW, yes yes, but that contradicts all logic)

Claws maybe aren't the worst offender given that they are 2 attacks for every 3 evo points (tentacles being 1 for 1), but it certainly makes them better, and they are already good.

[JJMJester]

Wow, I just got finished reading the listed topics on Evolution Reach....there really needs to be an official FAQ or Ertta for the Ediolon. With all the different wordings through multiple books and creature examples...it really is up to how the DM wants to roll with it. So, I'm going to have to decide on my own ruling for Reach Evolution but thanks everyone for clarifying the other parts I was confused on!

[Scorpi]

Hero Labs - which is normally 99.9% always accurate has the reach evolution only applying to the natural weapons of the Eidolon.

[fretgod99]

Scorpi wrote:

Hero Labs - which is normally 99.9% always accurate has the reach evolution only applying to the natural weapons of the Eidolon.

1. Necro! Re-kill it with fire!

2.

Base Summoner Eidolon wrote:

Reach (Ex): One of an eidolon's attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon's reach with that attack increases by 5 feet.

USummoner's entry is the same.

It doesn't say so, but I'd assume this is intended to be limited to natural attacks. "Manufactured Melee Weapons" isn't really "one of an Eidolon's attacks". Specifying a weapon would be silly, too. Besides, if you have Weapon Training, you can use a manufactured weapon with built-in reach. So I'm gonna say no, it's for natural weapons only.