imagine the same Rogue hitting while flanking after an acrobatics check (done with at least +19) for 10d6+21+6 bleed damage. It's not a spell, it's just a standard action with standard equipment: 22 strength (+4 from a belt of physical might), a [+3] two-handed sword, power attack, vital strike, 6d6 sneak attack, bleeding attack.
It's not a bad option. Considering that you have all the skill points you could ever need, evasion, a decent AC and awesome mobility on fighting ground.
:o)
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Get Posts closed because of trench warfare? :)
Seriously guys, Crimson Sirious wants to play a rogue.
So either help him with constrictive hints on that or quit it.
This thread is not about of a rogue is good or not or a bard or whoever is better.
Only about playing a rogue, having fun with it and contributing with it.
Imagine a foe who, at any random moment of the day, zings you one for 1d8+6d6. You're out in the middle of nowhere, running low of consumables and spell uses per day, and can't get a moment's rest -- and if they let you sleep, it'll be to coup de grace.You camp someplace with 60 feet of unobstructed sight and put the dwarf or half orc on watch. The rogue says "Oh look i'm in the dark " the person with dark vision says "You're standing in the open, you have no cover and no concealment. Auto spot! WHACK"
And by 12th level you're not camping anywhere except maybe in your Tiny hut. Pardon me, do you have any grey poupon?
The rogue relies on particular terrain and target types: which are not under his control, they're under the DM's. Rogues work ok as foes but the mark of how good a class is for a player is how well a player can do with it.
One hopes that the rogue attack team doesn't have a wand of vanish, or dispel magic or arcane sight, or any of the other things that could torpedo the "rogue-proof" camp. For every move there is a counter-move, and yes it is a two-way street.
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The rogue is a bad class that reflects poor game design and supports an unfun distinction between combat and noncombat classes.
The rogue is a specialized class that caters to an older adventure design philosophy and supports an obsolete division between combat and noncombat classes.
Notice that I didn't just change words to contradict you — I think there was some truth in your point. I think my replacements are more accurate.
Basically, it comes to this: there are adventures in any seasoned GM's library that can make the rogue fun to play. If those adventures are collecting dust, and the GM plays in a modern style, well... it's not as fun.
But the rules are all still there. The rules don't make the rogue suck, the zeitgeist of D&D/Pathfinder in our era is what does. All it takes is a GM — not to fix it, but to support what's there.
Props to Hayato Ken for pointing out that it isn't just disable device that requires a consummate GM — the stealth rules, flat-footed, sneak attack, lighting, skills... the Rogue class features involve a LOT of in-depth GM knowledge. This is a hold over from the fact that the rogue used to be the ONLY class that could do any of this.
I do lay this at the feet of the GM, with the caveat that a good GM can make it work, and well, without even bending the rules.
@The Archaeologist: No one will ever convince me that making an archaeologist to disarm traps is better than going straight rogue. The archaeologist is terrible, IMO.
I still say give the rogue full BAB. They still don't have what it takes to survive melee, but TWF and all that will suddenly work out great.
NOT more hp, not anything else. Imagine your rogue with full BAB. Too powerful? With the feats that become relevant in melee, etc? Stacking with fighter classes?
How about an inherent +1 to BAB starting at 1st, so you get +16 at 20th? Too good? Not realistic? What's the problem here?
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This is what i think the problem is with the pathfinder rogue. Nothing in particular really kills the class, but taken altogether i think the rogue took a serious hit.
1) Probably the only item on the list from 2.0 to 3.0 rather than 3.5 to PF.: Traps are no longer TPK's if you miss them. They are balanced to be a challenge to the party, and that challenge by and large can be resolved by taking out a wand of cure light wounds and healing up the party. There's a few speed bumps where you won't have the ability to deal with a poison or curse trap, but they're few and far between.
2) Skill consolidation. You used to need 8+ skill points per level to get
Spot, Listen,Search,
Disable device, Open Locks
Hide, move silently
Jump, Tumble.
Now that its Perception, Disable device, Stealth, and acrobatics 4 Skill points is getting you the same bang for your buck. A druid or barbarian gets that out of the gate, and even a human cleric with a 10 int can get that thanks to the free favored class bonus.
3) The new class skill system
Not only did cross class ranks give a 5 point discrepancy at level 10, they cost twice as many skill points. Now its only a 3 point discrepancy between a fighter with a maxed out perception and a rogue with a maxed out perception AND they spend the same number of skill points. A human rogue and elf fighter are only one point apart.
4) Anyone can find traps.
Anyone with an ok perception score can look for traps. Its not a unique feature of the rogue class anymore. This means that the highest perception score is the best trap finder: even with a +1/2 level trap-finding ability a Druid can be a superior trap finder at low levels and competitive at high ones.
4a: Spamable detect magic:
Casters can detect magic all day long. Magic traps practically have a sign on them that says "here i am". Its not POLITE to cast detect magic that often, but its in the rules and very smart.
5) Traits
The plethora of traits open up class skills to just about anyone. I love the customization, and it lets me fill in some gaps that i don't think make sense (like a druid not being able to study underground ecology)
6) Spells
As you level up it takes fewer and fewer resources (as a % of a wizards total) to do your job, and by and large they do it better. Spiderclimb is a +20 climb, invisibility is +20 stealth, alter self is +20 to disguise.
7) Archtypes:
If you think you absolutely need trapfinding you can pick it up as an urban ranger or an archeologist bard.
8) New classes...
I'm looking at YOU alchemist. It has most of the rogues skills, can come with either sneak attacks or bombs for damage, can come with 3 attacks to take better advantage of the sneak attacks, AND gets some pretty sweet spells.
The ninja may be the rogue done right. It has the same skills, more offensive power, and the ability to sneak attack whenever he wants under his own power.
9) The stealth rules...
When played by raw, you're not sneaking up on anything in the dungeon. Everything can see you in the dark, and unless you have an all dwarf/orc party that torch you're carrying through the dungeon is a huge sign that says "DINNER IS COMMING" in bright neon lights to every denizen with big sharp pointy teeth. You need cover or concealment to hide and darkness is NOT concealment to something with darkvision (thats the entire monster manual)
You need the terrain to work for you. Usually its built to give the monster the advantage.
Not to mention blind-sense, tremor sense, and scent (which may or may not roflcopter stealth depending on which developer you listen to)
10) Flava flave.....
YOU, the player, give the character flavor. NOT the class. If you want a sneaky, doesn't play by the rules con man and ne'er do well then play one. It can be a shady druid, a disreputable alchemist selling "cures", an fighter/mobster... you do not have to lean on the class in order to bring this personality to life. Thats YOUR job, as the player.
Are rogues really done?
People keep playing them. Other than that i think so.
What could I do to make my rogue badass and have a shining role in the party?
This is really where i don't think the flavor meets the mechanics. The lone rogue, going rogue, striking out on your own flavor vs the reality that you NEED other people in order to function. If your party fighter can't set up flanks, your cleric won't summon things to flank with you,the wizard won't buff you, and the DM won't give you stuff to hide behind and traps to disable then you're hosed.
Buy your wizard a wand of invisibility/improved invisibility, or crank Use Magic Device to do it yourself.
Play with a high strength and a two handed weapon. Its definitely off shelf, but far more effective than finesse weapons and two handed fighting builds.
Talk with your party about tactics, hell, do it in character. Set up some combat dummies and pay peasants to move them around and discuss how your party can learn positioning, manuevering , and taking advantage of 5 foot steps to keep you flanking.
Short answer? Play a ninja, file off the serial numbers and call it something else if the Asian flavor grits your teeth as much as it does mine. Call it the scout, the mountebank, the skirmisher , the flanker the sneak the thief or the rogue.
WHAT IS the purpose of having a rogue if other classes could have ways around those "rogue's specialties"?
Flavor. People see rogue (class) and think rogue (personality).
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You know those scenes in movies where all the generals are studying a map of the battlefield and pushing little pawns across it in order to come up with battle strategies?
If you like to play D+D/PF like you're one of those generals, and love the tactics of the terrain and all that, the rogue is a great class to play. Sneak Attack is easiest to get off when you've got concealment (effective use of terrain) or when you're flanking (strategic positioning).
The rogue really excels when your playgroup is willing to stop and discuss a battle plan before they roll initiative. He's the fighter's favorite flanking buddy, and an excellent advance scout. If another melee character is willing to take Precise Strike with you, then suddenly the rogue really starts to look good.
If your fellow players are disjointed and don't cooperate beyond who counts as their ally and who doesn't, then a rogue will struggle much harder to find his zone. If you want to play a rogue, the best advice I can give is convince at least one of your fellow players to work on some teamwork tactics. It could be a caster willing to Grease enemies and deny them their Dex, a melee character willing to flank with you, or whatever you think would work, but take the time to do it.
Be an Archaeologist and take Vagabond Youth or a different trait to gain Disable Device as a class skill. Done. Congratulations, you are now numerically identical to a Rogue. Better, in fact, because your Perception bonus is universal (not just for traps), you can use your luck or spells to boost yourself, and your trapfinding has some built in talents.
It is customary to wait until someone actually makes an argument before demanding a build. Spells and magic are mentioned as one of many reasons that Rogues fall behind, but nobody here has said there is a Wizard build that makes Rogues useless. Or that Rogues are useless, for that matter.
Someone else who took them? Or perhaps use different options until you grab them with VP? I don't see how this is particularly relevant, anyway. The Rogue's two skill point bonus isn't impressive with or without the existence of Versatile Performance. I think Joyd explained this quite well already. That Bards can eventually end up with even more skillpoints is really just icing on the schtick-stealing cake.
The archaeologist I'll give you, but you just took a trait to get the skill and sacrificed the versatile performance so your whole spill about having more skills is moot.
Not to mention, as I stated before you just dropped your bardic performance for a self buff, which surely hurt. You gave up versatile performance and bardic performance for a self buff and trap finding. I'd honestly rather play a rogue at that point.
The idea of wizards replacing rogues has been stated plenty of times. The whole "summon a monster and send him through the door" thing. If you haven't seen that stated in numerous threads I can't help you.
If you like to play D+D/PF like you're one of those generals, and love the tactics of the terrain and all that, the rogue is a great class to play. Sneak Attack is easiest to get off when you've got concealment (effective use of terrain) or when you're flanking (strategic positioning).
The problem is, the numbers just aren't there. Rogues have terrible to-hit, due to 3/4 Bab and no class based bonuses to it. This then cuts heavily into average damage. At the end of the day, even with optimal tactics and conditions, you will be lucky to match the damage of many other classes. The difference is, they can still deal damage without those conditions. The Rogue is not so lucky.
The archaeologist I'll give you, but you just took a trait to get the skill and sacrificed the versatile performance so your whole spill about having more skills is moot.
What "whole spill?" I specifically stated "That Bards can eventually end up with even more skillpoints is really just icing on the schtick-stealing cake." Does that sound like I am balancing the argument on Versatile Performance in any way?
As for the trait, as Evil Lincoln said, "Disable Device is go big or go home." Besides making Disable Device a class skill, you also grab a +1 trait bonus. The Rogue can match, or fall behind in the number race.
Not to mention, as I stated before you just dropped your bardic performance for a self buff, which surely hurt.
This doesn't say anything about the Rogue. I said Archaeologist > Rogue. You just said Bard > Archaeologist. Unless you are trying to argue Bard > Archaeologist > Rogue, I don't know where you are going with this.
The idea of wizards replacing rogues has been stated plenty of times.
Not in this thread. You are arguing against your ideas about what people say, not what people here are actually saying. I heard a guy say that Rogues totally replaced Fighters once, but I'm not going to start demanding that people in this thread provide a build proving it.
Wizards can replace rogues.
Now that that's been said we can argue about it instead of whether or not its been said.
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If you like to play D+D/PF like you're one of those generals, and love the tactics of the terrain and all that, the rogue is a great class to play. Sneak Attack is easiest to get off when you've got concealment (effective use of terrain) or when you're flanking (strategic positioning).The problem is, the numbers just aren't there. Rogues have terrible to-hit, due to 3/4 Bab and no class based bonuses to it. This then cuts heavily into average damage. At the end of the day, even with optimal tactics and conditions, you will be lucky to match the damage of many other classes. The difference is, they can still deal damage without those conditions. The Rogue is not so lucky.
Maybe the numbers aren't there. Maybe they don't need to be there. Gamers have always had an attraction to self-imposed additional challenges, and choosing a class you know doesn't do the most DPR can be one of those challenges. The Rogue lends itself well to a specific playstyle, and rewards people for choosing that playstyle. Yes, a full-BAB 20-Strength class would probably do more damage on average in the same situation, but it wouldn't be as satisfying. As someone said earlier in the thread, newer players love it when they get the opportunity to roll a fistful of dice, and the Rogue offers them the opportunity. The Fighter may do more damage overall on average, but does he ever get to roll 6d6 in one attack?
This is what i think the problem is with the pathfinder rogue. Nothing in particular really kills the class, but taken altogether i think the rogue took a serious hit.
1) Probably the only item on the list from 2.0 to 3.0 rather than 3.5 to PF.: Traps are no longer TPK's if you miss them. They are balanced to be a challenge to the party, and that challenge by and large can be resolved by taking out a wand of cure light wounds and healing up the party. There's a few speed bumps where you won't have the ability to deal with a poison or curse trap, but they're few and far between.
2) Skill consolidation.
[3 - 10]
+1
Very good post BigNorseWolf.One thing about 3.x that I hated was the logic that "the rogue is the only class that can deal with traps so let's add a lot of traps in the game". There is no need to have a trap fixer in a party anymore. Not even all Rogue archetypes get trap finding.
You don't need the rogue in a party anymore than you need a fighter. If you want a damage dealer you don't have to play a fighter. You can play a paladin, or a Barbarian, or a Ranger, or any full BAB class. As been npointed out, no class is absolutely necessary anymore.
So why should you play a rogue? Because it is unique? All classes are unique. Even the expert is unique, so why the rogue?
I find some of the skillmonkey arguments in this thread really silly.
The bard and ranger 'only' gets 6 skills per level so they are not as good skillmonkey as rogues? Is this argument for real? 6 or 8 skills per level don't really matter. Both works fine and the vanilla bard is the best skillmonkey in the game and far more versatile then the rogue.
@ Evil Lincoln
True the Bard and its archetypes don't get disable device as a class skill. Not even the Archaeologist and the Sandman get it as a class skills. So what?
Class skill only means +1.If you have +20 or +23 as a skill modifier is no big deal.
Any character can get it as class skill. Pick a trait or pick one (or more) level Ninja, Rogue or Alchemist....or some leves urban ranger.
A bard (or any class) don't even need disable device as a class skill. Smart players and/or magic can deal with traps and closed doors. This is especially true at higher levels.
I think the importance of the bard's 'Versatile Performance' has been overstated by some posters on this thread. As Mike Schneider said, bards need Charisma as well as Dexterity. Intelligence may not be a priority. They have fewer skills and will need to pump them into Perception, Spellcraft, UMD and some of the Knowledges; I would say Linguistics is an important bard skill. These - in addition to multiple forms of Perform - are going to spread the bard pretty thin.
Also Versatile Performance is potentially a trap. If you start playing a bard at 1st level and manage to reach 6th, you can extend Versatile Performance to Perform (Act), using it to replace Bluff and Disguise. Great. However, any skill points you put into Bluff and Disguise PREVIOUSLY are essentially lost - unless you're not putting anything into those skills for 6 levels....which isn't going to make you a very good bard. Furthermore there's a lot of redundancy in the list - Perform (Act) and Perform (Sing) both replace Bluff, for instance.
This is BS.
A Bard don't need to have a silly high charisma and they don't need to pump anything, skills included.Most optimized rogue build I have seen are built around UMD and a decent charisma. That is all a Bard NEEDS. A decent Charisma. Especially if you are going to play it like a rogue.
multiple forms of Perform helps. You have Versatile Performance and it is not potentially a trap.
It is, .....if you are really stupid and don't plan a head. You will probably only max the Versatile Performance you get at level 2 and level 6. The Versatile Performance mechanic are not great when you get it at level 10 and 14 but can still be if use. Having Choices is better than not.
Admittedly, Bardic Knowledge is a great ability. Essentially it gives you 10 class skills with a free point every 2 levels. However, you still have to put some points into your Knowledges - if you neglect them, they'll become pretty mediocre over time.
No, they don't. Who claims you have to max them all. Also having a mediocre knowledge skills is better than not having them at all. And the can take 10 or even 20, so fara better than any rogue.
Look, bards are a great class - my second favourite in the game. However possessing a wide and shallow range of skills is not the definition of a skill monkey for me.
possessing a wide and shallow range of skills is not the definition of a bard for me.
A wide and deep range is.
A rogue needs to put points into Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Disable Device, Escape Artist, a Knowledge, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth and UMD to do their job. They can do this, every skill, every level. Bards can't do that. They have too many priorities.
A wide and deep range is?
I find knowledge skills and perception to be the most used skills at higher level so I have no clue of what you are talking about.Bards can't do that? Di they need to? They are far more versatile and in the end it what you prioritize that counts.
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Don't know if it's been said, but I happen to love Ranged Rogues.
Scout Archetype + Elf nets a mobile Xd8+Yd6 arrow machine. Move & shoot, with pretty good damage.
This gets crazy fun if playing with action points (move + full-attack) and/or there's a Bard in the party.
As above, the Rogue allows for flexibility off the combat map, lots of room for characterization & customization, and can contribute in a fight. Heck, if you get the drop on someone, and land a Surprise Round / First Round Full-Attack with your bow, that's ouch town for someone.
Your mileage may vary, and if you fight a lot of sneak attack immune creatures, diviners, or arrow-grabbing monks your attack plan is kinda hosed, but I've had good success three or four times now (RotRL, Second Darkness, and RotRL again, IIRC) at the table.
One of my favorite tricks with my illusionist: glitterdust some high-fort/low-will melee brutes. Our Rogue can then pick them off at her leisure, or nail each of em for some bleed damage right away. Low-level, effective, and keeps everyone at the table engaged.
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Imagine a foe who, at any random moment of the day, zings you one for 1d8+6d6. You're out in the middle of nowhere, running low of consumables and spell uses per day, and can't get a moment's rest -- and if they let you sleep, it'll be to coup de grace.You camp someplace with 60 feet of unobstructed sight...
What a generous module -- you might survive! :-P
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A fun combo to try is Knife Master, take Snap shot (During surprise round, take 20 from the initiative roll and attack with a ranged weapon), pick up Surprise Attack (all enemies are always flat-footed during surprise round, even if they have already acted) and take Underhanded (deal max sneak attack dmg during surprise round with a concealed weapon).
Buy a dagger (2 gp) and a spring-loaded wrist-seath (5gp). Throw dagger at anyone, likely to hit because of flat-footedness, and you deal 1d4+8X dmg, where X is 1/2 of your rogue levels.
Voila.
You can also combine this with the Scout archetype (sneak attacks when you charge) to get those sneaks off even after the surprise round. Alternatively, if you use a high point buy or happened to roll high wisdom, pick up "Ki Pool" trick and "Vanishing Trick". And at later levels, combine that Skirmisher's Charge with Charging Hurler to constantly throw sneak daggers ^.^
On a more serious note, though, I personally like Rogue because of the varied flavor, and the Jack-Of-All-Trades mentality. But maybe that's because I like to play well-rounded characters instead of ponies with one or two tricks.
(Not that I don't like ponies. Ponies are cute.)
The role of the rogue is an archer / melee support, with a lot of skills to cover relevant aspects of the game (acrobatics, bluff, sleight of hand, perception, disable devise, stealth, use magic device etc.) and with the opportunity to strike for considerable damage in given circumstances.
If we talk about 'balance' of the rogue in the game, I would say keep it 8 hd and 3/4 BAB and focus the game more on skills. This is an aspect subject to the DM approach to the role play but... Skills are a relevant part of the game, not a miscellaneous aspect. When you have fighters firing 7 arrows in 6 seconds, and wizards teleporting around, is unfair to leave physic law restrictions only regarding skills!
You have +20 in stealth? You can try to hide in an empty illuminated room. God knows how you do it, maybe you are just so fast that you are always behind the poor guy's face.
Anyway even if a DM very strict on rules, you can have pretty fun and have always something to do with a rogue.
@Crimson Sirius: Here are my suggestions: half orc / human, focused on str, falchion (or two handed sword) + PA, most probably weapon focus, later on you will be looking for improved critical and a mithral breastplate for defense (count as light for movement, keeps until +5 dex, which is more or less the dex you are aiming at with bonus included). The 15point buy as I wrote above might be 18-15-12-10-10-7. Toughness and dodge would be appreciated; Vital strike could be effectively used. A middle game rogue, with a +2 breast plate, a +2 ring and dodge feat would have 8a+5dex+2r+1d= 26 AC plus natural armor bonus... It's pretty decent, considering that you will be able to avoid some thanks to acrobatics and that you are almost taking zero damage from fireballs and the alike.
Considering that fighter as a class gives you nice proficiency and other things you need, you might take a few levels in it. Example: 5 fighter levels. You get armor training (at 3°, with armor training 1, you would have 0 penalty check on mithral breastplate, and 6 max dex), weapon specialization and weapon training. You would lose overall 2d6 sneak attack (7dmg on a sneak attack hit), but getting to a BAB of 16 you would gain an extra attack and a +2 to hit (1BAB 1 w.training) / +3 dmg (+1 w. training +2 w. focus) on every hit compared to a full rogue. And you still have all your skills!
Hope this gave you some inputs!
Yo
Yeah i like ponies too, does that make me a bronie?
Guess not.
Oh look at that wild raging pony over there, lets put a lasso around its neck and tame it. I have some ride and handle animal skills, guess that should do the trick, since the wild raging pony dumped WIS and INT.
Oh and the mulituse walking & speaking spellcompendium ... really thinks it can see me with see invisibility ... *smack*
Rogues can profit greatly from 2 or 3 levels fighter or monk.
If you go fighter consider Lore Warden, buffing your maneuvers hehe.
Another nice treat comes to my mind. The net adept feat chain with net trickery, blinding your oponent before you move in and give them some nice SA´s.
Ah there it comes to mind, barbarians do use warpaints and other stuff ... so its really "my little [wild raging] pony" haha. Is there a rainbow coloured barbarian tribe?
You don't need to change the mechanics of the rogue at all, what needs to be added are simply feats and talents that help fix some of their problems, and a few treats that you can get only by being a rogue. he does not need any new rules or full base attack, just a better selection of rogue only tools.
The problem is, the numbers just aren't there. Rogues have terrible to-hit, due to 3/4 Bab and no class based bonuses to it. This then cuts heavily into average damage. At the end of the day, even with optimal tactics and conditions, you will be lucky to match the damage of many other classes. The difference is, they can still deal damage without those conditions. The Rogue is not so lucky.
I find this 3/4 BAB is the suck argument a bit overdone. At twenty, you are 5 BAB behind the Ranger, and nobody is crying for them. You shouldn't be attacking anyone's normal AC, on average, their AC should be 1 or 2 lower flat footed, and flanking earns you another +2. If you are dual wielding and not hitting, stop attacking with the offhand and that -2 goes away. If you are hammering on a tank/high ac critter, try a wand of produce flame.
What "whole spill?" I specifically stated "That Bards can eventually end up with even more skillpoints is really just icing on the schtick-stealing cake." Does that sound like I am balancing the argument on Versatile Performance in any way?As for the trait, as Evil Lincoln said, "Disable Device is go big or go home." Besides making Disable Device a class skill, you also grab a +1 trait bonus. The Rogue can match, or fall behind in the number race.
Whole spiel. I think the argument is that a Rogue can devote more points to int, whereas a Bard is a bit more mad and ends up having to go with the 10 INT, so you end up with 6 skill points for the Bard and 10-12 for the Rogue. In the end, I think they cancel each other out. Rogue's are hard pressed to match Bard's in Knowledge's and Face Skills, and Rogues do the more physical skills better. They are both Skill Monkeys, different, but in many ways equal. That is the Bard vis Rogue. The Archaeologist on the other hand, the Bard/Rogue hybrid, loses versatile performance, so skill point parity is gone. The archaeologist loses inspire, so his damage potential is greatly reduced. Even though it is a "bard", the Archaeologist essentially a rogue without sneak attack, reduced skill points, reduced talents, a new focus on Charisma, a self buff, 1 less trait, and a bards spell list. The Archivist is arguably better because it has a form of inspire, but it too loses versatile performance. Different strokes for different folks. I don't think that Bard is better than Rogue, they both have their places, I just don't think Rogue's are useless compared to Bards. As an aside, it is nice to see Bards get so much love, they were pretty useless in previous editions.
What would greatly help the rogue and also speed up and simplify the game is the clarification of stealth and perception rules.
Hand in hand with that should the rework of Flat-footed/denied DEX stuff go.
Then a lot of rogue talents would also make more sense and be cool.
All that "surprise round only" stuff is nice, but it kind of sucks to hit in the surprise round and then get focused because you actually deal damage, but you have to run away.
Look at hellcat pounce.
Needs skill focus stealth and hellcat stealth, 2 nice feats, also 2d6 sneak attack. (By the way, if you took "knife master" archetype, by RAW you can never gut such a feat, since you don´t have d6 SA, only d4 or d8)
But then it gives you a second attack in the surprise round if you hit the first, only SA does not apply. Oh yeah.
Hellcat stealth isn't a good solution for a few reasons.
1) Its in a relatively obscure sourcebook
2) it doesn't actually grant hide in plain sight or remove the cover and concealment requirements. Depending on how you read it, it only lets you stealth in concealment in bright light.
3) definitely doesn't work underground. If you're fighting something with darkvision you're not in any particular lighting condition, they can just see you.
I agree that they could add some more sentences.
On the rest i absolutely resolutely disagree and i can tell you why:
In dim light you have 20% concealment and can make stealth checks.
Now the feat says: "You may make Stealth checks in normal or bright light even when observed, but at a -10 penalty. "
That means technically you count as having concealment in normal and bright light, but only for stealth purpose (you don+t get a miss chance or anyhting else).
It gets better:
If you can do that in normal and bright light, observed, you can do it in all other lighting conditions too, even versus darkvision.
Additionally you can just sneak around everywhere, because you now have concealment everywhere.
Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils is surely no obscure sourcebook. It´s just a feat from hell.
Anyone doubting this can go file an official complaint and queue for audience with Asmodeus himself.
It´s actually the best feat for rogues, the more i think about it. You can have it at level 6. With the right equipment -10 on stealth checks are no problem. *diabolic laughter*
This is what i think the problem is with the pathfinder rogue. Nothing in particular really kills the class, but taken altogether i think the rogue took a serious hit.
1) Probably the only item on the list from 2.0 to 3.0 rather than 3.5 to PF.: Traps are no longer TPK's if you miss them. They are balanced to be a challenge to the party, and that challenge by and large can be resolved by taking out a wand of cure light wounds and healing up the party. There's a few speed bumps where you won't have the ability to deal with a poison or curse trap, but they're few and far between.
2) Skill consolidation. You used to need 8+ skill points per level to get
Spot, Listen,Search,
Disable device, Open Locks
Hide, move silently
Jump, Tumble.
Now that its Perception, Disable device, Stealth, and acrobatics 4 Skill points is getting you the same bang for your buck. A druid or barbarian gets that out of the gate, and even a human cleric with a 10 int can get that thanks to the free favored class bonus.
3) The new class skill system
Not only did cross class ranks give a 5 point discrepancy at level 10, they cost twice as many skill points. Now its only a 3 point discrepancy between a fighter with a maxed out perception and a rogue with a maxed out perception AND they spend the same number of skill points. A human rogue and elf fighter are only one point apart.
4) Anyone can find traps.
Anyone with an ok perception score can look for traps. Its not a unique feature of the rogue class anymore. This means that the highest perception score is the best trap finder: even with a +1/2 level trap-finding ability a Druid can be a superior trap finder at low levels and competitive at high ones.
4a: Spamable detect magic:
Casters can detect magic all day long. Magic traps practically have a sign on them that says "here i am". Its not POLITE to cast detect magic that often, but its in the rules and very smart.
5) Traits
The plethora of traits open up class skills to just about anyone. I...
Pretty decent analysis. As far as it goes though, I feel that Pathfinder's skill system and the fact that Rogues are not a necessity for dealing with traps are really good changes to the system; force-selecting any one class for inclusion in the party is just bad design in my opinion, and low skill point classes are a bit of a peeve for me; as a DM, I'm inclined to boost 2+Int classes to 4+Int. The problem as I see it, then, is not that these changes exist, but that the rogue's capabilities are not really boosted or altered relative to it.
As to #6, that's still an improvement in PF over 3.x, where those spells made the check completely unnecessary.
I don't think the rogue is an unplayable class. I've seen some very interesting advice from Mike Schneider in other threads. From what I can recall they were built on heavy Min/max dex builds relying heavy on use magic device. A character always with a ace up his sleeve. Or As I say: They always have a plan B. Be it a Tanglefoot bag, Thunderstones, wands or whatever.
Please correct Mike If I'm wrong.
The rogue can be fun but you really need to know what you want from the class. Rogues are a very challenging class to create and play. The player needs to be smart.
There are however some misconceptions when it comes to the rogue.
All parties needs a rogue! No, all a party needs is some beverages, some music and good friends. Seriously. You can do without rogues and classes that can disable magical traps by using disable device.
Rogues are powerful damage dealers. No they are not, and it get even worse at higher levels. But they can deal some damage.
Skills are very powerful so rogue are powerful. Yes at lower levels skills are good, but 6 skills per level and even 4 is fine. Add favored class bonus and possible bonus skills for humans and you are more than fine. At higher levels skills become less useful.
You have to max out skills. No, you actually don't.
Rogue can get by without magic. No, they need and should use UMD. (That why I rather play a bard. Why pretend to be caster + jack of all trades when you can be one. )
Stealth and invisibility grants sneak attack. No, not necessary. From what I've read the Devs have now stated that by RAW hide/invisibility don't grant sneak attack damage (or was it only stealth?).
All this said. The game isn't all about damage. At least not at lower levels. If you like the rogue. Go for it. Me, I never would.
Please correct Mike If I'm wrong.I had to chuckle when I saw this. Did you perhaps mean "Please correct me, Mike, if I'm wrong"? ;)
LOL!
Darn I can't edit my last post.Yes I did mean: Please correct me, Mike, if I'm wrong.
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And, unless they have a positive INT modifier, they'll have zero ranks in Diplomacy, Intimidate, Slight of Hand, Sense Motive, Use Magic Device, any Knowledge skill, etc. An elf rogue build could easily be maxed in ten of those without breaking a sweat.2) Skill consolidation. You used to need 8+ skill points per level to get
Spot, Listen,Search,
Disable device, Open Locks
Hide, move silently
Jump, Tumble.
Now that its Perception, Disable device, Stealth, and acrobatics 4 Skill points is getting you the same bang for your buck. A druid or barbarian gets that out of the gate, and even a human cleric with a 10 int can get that thanks to the free favored class bonus.
Anyone with an ok perception score can look for traps. Its not a unique feature of the rogue class anymore. This means that the highest perception score is the best trap finder: even with a +1/2 level trap-finding ability a Druid can be a superior trap finder at low levels and competitive at high ones.
The higher you go, the more severe become the consequences for failure. A "competitive" score is just euphemism for one that isn't good enough when it really counts.
Stealth and invisibility grants sneak attack. No, not necessary. From what I've read the Devs have now stated that by RAW hide/invisibility don't grant sneak attack damage (or was it only stealth?).
Sorry Zark, but i have to cut you out there.
This assumption relies on misinterpretations.Lately Wraithstrike has pointed it out very well, you can search the thread.
Also why should the Devs say something like this?
Can you please provide a link where a dev states this?
And best as something official like a FAQ or errata?
From "what i read" ... "the devs" sounds pretty much like trollings of people not able to read the core rulebook and be aware of what they actually read and there seem to be plenty of those regarding stealth and sneak attack.
Please don´t state something like this like an official ruling or errata, untill it is one, in which case you are surely not short of official proof.
By the way, i just came home from play, where i used my halfling whip trip build ninja for great fun and effectivity, even with dirty trick without any special feats. On level 12.
The higher you go, the more severe become the consequences for failure. A "competitive" score is just euphemism for one that isn't good enough when it really counts.
Are you taking 20 on perception checks? Because "isn't good enough" isn't a hard cutoff otherwise. If you are at +3 over my build you *only* have a +15% chance to see something I don't. How important that is depends on the DC, which depends on the DM. For instance, if you have 100% chance of success and I have 85% then I would say that my score is "good enough". If you have a 15% and I have a 0% score then neither of us have a good chance of success.
As was pointed out, the level of play makes a big difference as well. The high Wis characters will start off higher than your rogue, and probably by a lot. They are also advancing Wis and you are not, and may be getting +Wis items while you get some other stat. I bet you wouldn't match a Druid's perception score until level 10 or so.
And, unless they have a positive INT modifier, they'll have zero ranks in Diplomacy, Intimidate, Slight of Hand, Sense Motive, Use Magic Device, any Knowledge skill, etc.
So what?
You don't need use magic device if you can use it legitimately, intimidate and diplomacy are redundant unless you need to demoralize people in combat (and there are better ways), slight of hand is pointless when you can kill them or knock them out and THEN loot the body, and picking up sense motive isn't that hard especially for a wisdom based caster.
An elf rogue build could easily be maxed in ten of those without breaking a sweat.
But what else could they do? For all the complaints about Schrodinger's wizard the Schrodinger's rogue that manages to have useful unique talents, skills, defense and combat power seems just as bad. An actual wizard however will approach Schrodinger's wizard as it levels whereas an actual rogue will get further and further from Schrodinger's rogue.
The higher you go, the more severe become the consequences for failure. A "competitive" score is just euphemism for one that isn't good enough when it really counts.
No, it isn't and kindly don't accuse me of saying things I didn't say. It means its about the same, depending on the starting wisdoms of those involved.
The higher you go the easier the traps and or their consequences are to fix with a spell.
The difference is, that the druid cannot spot traps without actively searching for them all the time.
The rogue can just walk by and *probably* sees them, coincidentally.
Of course high WIS chars start with higher perception, but that is not the point necessarily. Also you can hve rogue builds with high WIS too.
Like if you want to acquire a ki pool, based on your WIS.
Or other reasons, like you want a higher will save.
Or you combine monk and rogue.
The difference is, that the druid cannot spot traps without actively searching for them all the time.
The rogue can just walk by and *probably* sees them, coincidentally.
The rogue needs the trapspotter talent to do this. Rogues are kind of hard up for talents to be effective in combat, which is far more dangerous and occurs far more often than most traps.
Let´s have trap examples!
"Arrow Trap CR 1
XP 400
Type mechanical; Perception DC 20; Disable Device DC 20
EFFECTS
Trigger touch; Reset none
Effect Atk +15 ranged (arrow; 1d8+1/×3)"
Rogue level 1:
-Perception: WIS 0+ class skill 3+ 1 rank+ trapfinding 1= 5
-Disable device: DEX 3+class skill 3+ 1 rank+ trapfinding 1= 8
So you find the trap on a 15 and disable it on a 12.
For CR 1 this seems to be an realtively easy trap.
What could the druid or bard or whoever do?
The rogue needs the trapspotter talent to do this. Rogues are kind of hard up for talents to be effective in combat, which is far more dangerous and occurs far more often than most traps.The difference is, that the druid cannot spot traps without actively searching for them all the time.
The rogue can just walk by and *probably* sees them, coincidentally.
Yes right my fault. It´s kind of late here^^
What could the druid or bard or whoever do?
Well, a Druid 1 likely has at least +7 Perception (+3 Wis, +3 Class, +1 Rank). So he has a 40% of finding the trap, as opposed to the Rogue's 30%. The Bard is harder to figure, given the wild variety of builds, archetypes, and spells, but one built for trap finding is going to be comparable to the Rogue. Rangers built towards traps will likely be a bit higher, depending on Wisdom.
Regardless, after they find it, they can deal with it any number of ways. Trigger it with a 10' pole or thrown rock. Put a board in front of it. Try to walk around or jump past. Have someone walk into it then heal the 5.5 average damage.
That was fun! Although, to be fair, this is actually the easiest sort of trap. It doesn't rearm, all it does is hitpoint damage, it isn't connected to an encounter, and can be dealt with without Disable Device. Even if you miss it, you heal the damage and move on. If you want the kind of trap that makes you want every possible point of Perception and Disable Device you can find, might I recommend the "River Trap" from Varnhold Vanishing? If you miss it, I can't imagine how that thing isn't an instant TPK.
Yeah i just took the first trap i could find out of the PFsrd, but we can go through others. Doing stuff like this is actually a lot better than arguing with unfettered stuff. You and others get better looks at mechanics and possiblities and learn more about the game and eventual weaknesses or problematic areas might also be uncovered.
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So... I've had a discussion with a friend over the pros and cons of playing a rogue in Pathfinder. He said that everything a rogue does can be done on the same level (if not better) by any other class.
A door to pick? You could send the meat shield to open that up! Or a spellcaster to do something about it.
A trap? Well, there are many ways to go around that, but if you REALLY want to use disable device, why don't you pick a bard instead?
The conversation went on and on like that. My friends point was: the rogue got nerfed on some points and other classes got nice perks, thus, Rogues are not necessary.
I, being a fan of the class, got very disheartened by that. So I'm here to ask the experts and more experienced players:
Are rogues really done?
What could I do to make my rogue badass and have a shining role in the party?
WHAT IS the purpose of having a rogue if other classes could have ways around those "rogue's specialties"?
If you have a concept for a character- something in mind for who they are, where they came from and what they do- you drape appropriate mechanics over that, so they can interact with the rest of the game world in a meaningful, consistent way. Hopefully your resulting character isn't short any abilities, but most gamers have learned to live with that- they'll pick them up later in the career. If you have extra abilities, you ignore them, or explain them in a way that makes sense for your concept. This can even lead to organic character growth, which everyone agrees is a good thing.
The Rogue is one such set of mechanics. The unsatisfying thing is- most concepts that the Rogue satisfies are now done by other classes just as well. The only real exceptions are ones that specifically exclude the alternatives, and are usually made with the (sub)conscious decision to fit the concept to the class, not fit the class to the concept. If you want to play someone street-savvy who can pick pockets or locks, notice potential marks, climb to second story shops, sweet-talk a merchant into a discount and shiv a guy in a dark alley really well? Urban Ranger can do that! As a bonus, it keeps up more nicely at higher levels. Oh, you didn't want to cast spells? Well, who's making you cast spells as an Urban Ranger? Sure, you get them, but no one can make you cast them. Didn't want an animal companion? Never call one. Or, take the bond with your party, and explain it as "gang tactics" or an exceptional ability to plan heists. Everyone loves it when a plan comes together.
Some people have a mental short-circuit telling them that the Rogue class has some sort of trademark or monopoly on the in-game titles of Swashbuckler, Scoundrel, Rake, Thief, Thug, or the adjective "Dashing." This simply isn't true, but they will fight to preserve their perceptions. Using a title to describe a character or concept has no bearing on the actual class you are using as a vehicle for your persona. The only reason not to do so is that some of these words have become actual Archetypes, and will confuse people who don't know what your mechanical class is (and therefore won't know what to expect of your capabilities). This is a truly unfortunate side effect of using a class-based game.
This is all assuming a druid that isn't even trying to be a rogue. There's a few ways to pick up disable device as a class skill, or given how class skills work, drop a feat on skill focus: disable device and get the same effect.
Pit Trap CR 1
Type mechanical; Perception DC 20; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger location; Reset manual
Effect 20-ft.-deep pit (2d6 falling damage); DC 20 Reflex avoids; multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft.-square area)
_____________________
-The druid has a better chance to detect the trap. If he doesn't someone throws him (or his animal companion) a rope, he takes out a wand of cure light wounds and dings himself.
Poisoned Dart Trap CR 1
Type mechanical; Perception DC 20; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger touch; Reset none
Effect Atk +10 ranged (1d3 plus greenblood oil)
-Druid has a better chance to detect, and a better fort save in case he's poisoned. Summon a mite to open it.
Swinging Axe Trap CR 1
Type mechanical; Perception DC 20; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger location; Reset manual
Effect Atk +10 melee (1d8+1/×3); multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft. line)
-Druid has a better chance to detect , drops an earth elemental on the trap, walks around, or hops over.
Burning Hands Trap CR 2
Type magic; Perception DC 26; Disable Device DC 26
Effects
Trigger proximity (alarm); Reset none
Effect spell effect (burning hands, 2d4 fire damage, DC 11 Reflex save for half damage); multiple targets (all targets in a 15-ft. cone)
Rogue has a hard time finding this one, druid auto detects because he's spamming detect magic. Druid drops a fire beetle onto the trap, who goes up like a torch.
Javelin Trap CR 2
Type mechanical; Perception DC 20; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger location; Reset none
Effect Atk +15 ranged (1d6+6)
Druid has a better chance to spot, party walks around or rolls a 30 pound rock onto the square
Spiked Pit Trap CR 2
Type mechanical; Perception DC 20; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger location; Reset manual
Effect 10-ft.-deep pit (1d6 falling damage); pit spikes (Atk +10 melee, 1d4 spikes per target for 1d4+2 damage each); DC 20 Reflex avoids; multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft.-square area)
Druid has a better chance to spot, hops over pit.
Acid Arrow Trap CR 3
Type magic; Perception DC 27; Disable Device DC 27
Effects
Trigger proximity (alarm); Reset none
Effect spell effect (acid arrow, Atk +2 ranged touch, 2d4 acid damage for 4 rounds)
Rogue is likely to miss, druid auto spots because of detect magic spam. Summon a stirge on the spot , acid arrow likely misses its ac 16 touch. If not, oh well.
Camouflaged Pit Trap CR 3
Type mechanical; Perception DC 25; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger location; Reset manual
Effect 30-ft.-deep pit (3d6 falling damage); DC 20 Reflex avoids; multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft.-square area)
-Druid is more likely to spot. party hops over
Electricity Arc Trap CR 4
Type mechanical; Perception DC 25; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger touch; Reset none
Effect electricity arc (4d6 electricity damage, DC 20 Reflex save for half damage); multiple targets (all targets in a 30-ft. line)
Mite is set to open container if its spotted. Mite is fried.
Wall Scythe Trap CR 4
Type mechanical; Perception DC 20; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger location; Reset automatic reset
Effect Atk +20 melee (2d4+6/×4)
This ones tricker because of the reset. You'd need the rogue or the faux rogue. If you can't walk around.
Falling Block Trap CR 5
Type mechanical; Perception DC 20; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger location; Reset manual
Effect Atk +15 melee (6d6); multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft. square)
Set it off, dig or stoneshape through.
Fireball Trap CR 5
Type magic; Perception DC 28; Disable Device DC 28
Effects
Trigger proximity (alarm); Reset none
Effect spell effect (fireball, 6d6 fire damage, DC 14 Reflex save for half damage); multiple targets (all targets in a 20-ft.-radius burst)
Flame Strike Trap CR 6
Type magic; Perception DC 30; Disable Device DC 30
Effects
Trigger proximity (alarm); Reset none
Effect spell effect (flame strike, 8d6 fire damage, DC 17 Reflex save for half damage); multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft.-radius cylinder)
Rogue has trouble spotting, druid auto detects. Send a small fire elemental to set the trap off.
Wyvern Arrow Trap CR 6
Type mechanical; Perception DC 20; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger location; Reset none
Effect Atk +15 ranged (1d6 plus wyvern poison/×3)
Possibly equal chances of detection at this point. Druid can delay or neutrilize the poison.
Frost Fangs Trap CR 7
Type mechanical; Perception DC 25; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger location; Duration 3 rounds; Reset none
Effect jets of freezing water (3d6 cold damage, DC 20 Reflex save for half damage); multiple targets (all targets in a 40-ft.-square chamber)
Rogue has a good chance to see it, Druid auto detects
Have an ice elemental set it off.
Summon Monster VI Trap CR 7
Type magic; Perception DC 31; Disable Device DC 31
Effects
Trigger proximity (alarm); Reset none
Effect spell effect (summon monster VI, summons 1d3 Large elementals or 1 Huge elemental)
Rogue ain't seeing that. Disable may be hard too. Druid auto detects. Sets it off with a small monster, runs around the corner, shuts a door, waits for the summon spell to wear off in 7 rounds. Or casts dispel magic if high enough.
Camouflaged Spiked Pit Trap CR 8
Type mechanical; Perception DC 25; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger location; Reset manual
Effect 50-ft.-deep pit (5d6 falling damage); pit spikes (Atk +15 melee, 1d4 spikes per target for 1d6+5 damage each); DC 20 Reflex avoids; multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft.-square area)
See spot spot trap. Spot trap spot. party hops over or heck, the druid can disable that one.
Insanity Mist Trap CR 8
Type mechanical; Perception DC 25; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger location; Reset repair
Effect poison gas (insanity mist); never miss; onset delay (1 round); multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft.-by-10-ft. room)
The druid wonders why the dungeon smells like his socks.
Hail of Arrows Trap CR 9
Type mechanical; Perception DC 25; Disable Device DC 25
Effects
Trigger visual (arcane eye); Reset repair
Effect Atk +20 ranged (6d6); multiple targets (all targets in a 20-ft. line)
ow. Cure moderate.
Shocking Floor Trap CR 9
Type magic; Perception DC 26; Disable Device DC 26
Effects
Trigger proximity (alarm); Duration 1d6 rounds; Reset none
Effect spell effect (shocking grasp, Atk +9 melee touch [4d6 electricity damage]); multiple targets (all targets in a 40-ft.-square room)
Auto detect. Poor mite.
Energy Drain Trap CR 10
Type magic; Perception DC 34; Disable Device DC 34
Effects
Trigger visual (true seeing); Reset none
Effect spell effect (energy drain, Atk +10 ranged touch, 2d4 temporary negative levels, DC 23 Fortitude negates after 24 hours)
Auto detect. Poor mite.
Chamber of Blades Trap CR 10
Type mechanical; Perception DC 25; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger location; Duration 1d4 rounds; Reset repair
Effect Atk +20 melee (3d8+3); multiple targets (all targets in a 20-ft.-square chamber)
ow. Cure serious.
Cone of Cold Trap CR 11
Type magic; Perception DC 30; Disable Device DC 30
Effects
Trigger proximity (alarm); Reset none
Effect spell effect (cone of cold, 15d6 cold damage, DC 17 Reflex save for half damage); multiple targets (all targets in a 60-ft. cone)
Auto detect. Ice elemental.
Poisoned Pit Trap CR 12
Type mechanical; Perception DC 25; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger location; Reset manual
Effect 50-ft.-deep pit (5d6 falling damage); pit spikes (Atk +15 melee, 1d4 spikes per target for 1d6+5 damage each plus poison [shadow essence]); DC 25 Reflex avoids; multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft.-square area)
Pit trap. Do the hoppy hop. Turn into a kangaroo for this one.
Maximized Fireball Trap CR 13
Type magic; Perception DC 31; Disable Device DC 31
Effects
Trigger proximity (alarm); Reset none
Effect spell effect (fireball, 60 fire damage, DC 14 Reflex save for half damage); multiple targets (all targets in a 20-ft.-radius burst)
Auto detect. Send in flamey! (who unlike the mite really doesn't mind this)
Harm Trap CR 14
Type magic; Perception DC 31; Disable Device DC 31
Effects
Trigger touch; Reset none
Effect spell effect (harm, +6 melee touch, 130 damage, DC 19 Will save for half, cannot be reduced to less than 1 hit point)
Speaking of the poor mite...
Crushing Stone Trap CR 15
Type mechanical; Perception DC 30; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger location; Reset manual
Effect Atk +15 melee (16d6); multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft. square)
Set it off and stone shape it into fun, junglegym shapes or animal figures.
Empowered Disintegrate Trap CR 16
Type magic; Perception DC 33; Disable Device DC 33
Effects
Trigger sight (true seeing); Reset none
Effect spell effect (empowered disintegrate, +9 ranged touch, 30d6 damage plus 50%, DC 19 Fort save reduces the damage to 5d6 plus 50%)
Auto detect. Dispel magic or mite.
Lightning Bolt Gallery Trap CR 17
Type magic; Perception DC 29; Disable Device DC 29
Effects
Trigger proximity (alarm); Duration 1d6 rounds; Reset none
Effect spell effect (heightened lighting bolt, 8d6 electricity damage, DC 16 Reflex save for half); multiple targets (all targets in a 60-ft.-square chamber)
Small lightning elemental.
Deadly Spear Trap CR 18
Type mechanical; Perception DC 30; Disable Device DC 30
Effects
Trigger sight (true seeing); Reset manual
Effect Atk +20 ranged (1d8+6 plus black lotus extract)
Neut poison.
Meteor Swarm Trap CR 19
Type magic; Perception DC 34; Disable Device DC 34
Effects
Trigger sight (true seeing); Reset none
Effect spell effect (meteor swarm, 4 meteors at separate targets, +9 ranged touch, 2d6 plus 6d6 fire [–4 save on a hit], DC 23 Reflex save for half fire damage, 18d6 fire damage from other meteors, DC 23 Reflex save for half damage); multiple targets (four targets, no two of which can be more than 40 ft. apart)
Flame on!
Destruction Trap CR 20
Type magic; Perception DC 34; Disable Device DC 34
Effects
Trigger proximity (alarm); Reset none
Effect spell effect (heightened destruction, 190 damage, DC 23 Fortitude save reduces damage to 10d6)
.. wow.. the mites taking 30 times his hitpoints in damage...
"Hey, you had to use spells, valuable resources!"
Yes I did. But those resources wouldn't be there at all if i wasn't playing a druid. Its like complaining about having a fuel truck on a cross country trip. Sure, you guzzle gas , but you've got enough for yourself and then more to spare.
"but its not quiet!"
either is your party. Lets face it, unless you make a stealth party from the get go you've probably got one party member clanking along in heavy armor and some human that needs a torch to see by. Your party has a sign on it that says "DIIIIIIINEEEEER"
"hey, isn't that cruel to the summoned critter?"
the summoned critter isn't real. Its a manifestation of the essence of that creature, not a real being itself.
"What if you didn't memorize a summon spell?"
Druids can auto convert spells to summons the way clerics can to heals.
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And, unless they have a positive INT modifier, they'll have zero ranks in Diplomacy, Intimidate, Slight of Hand, Sense Motive, Use Magic Device, any Knowledge skill, etc.So what?
You don't need use magic device if you can use it legitimately, intimidate and diplomacy are redundant unless you need to demoralize people in combat...
Or your PFS faction mission requires a DC25 skill check. Yeah: that. Because having a crappy level of fame means you end up with crap for equipment.
Sure: rogues are suboptimal in hack-n-slash because hack-n-slash is all that you do in between the odd trap or other skill check with combat utility.
No one's debating that.
Or your PFS faction mission requires a DC25 skill check. Yeah: that. Because having a crappy level of fame means you end up with crap for equipment.
Not everyone is playing pathfinder society, and even then you can rely on your party members or get creative.
Sure: rogues are suboptimal in hack-n-slash because hack-n-slash is all that you do in between the odd trap or other skill check with combat utility.No one's debating that.
other classes do things out of combat as well, and have options for dealing with people.
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The more I think about it, the more I think rogues are best as a dip class. One level gets you the most extensive class skill list in the game, functional Precise Strike without needing a teammate to take it, a bonus to reflex saves (if they're your main class's bad save) and trapfinding. Two levels gets you evasion and lets you pick a rogue talent, which is nothing to sneer at considering one of them is a bonus combat feat. All you really give up for all this is +1 BAB, which isn't so terrible.
Funny, it used to be the bard that got a bad rap as being "good as the 5th member". Now I think it's the rogue-- he's not really the best at anything, but he's good enough at various things.