As the title says, is it possible to TWF with Claws, and what happens with your other natural attacks if you do? Do they become secondary?
They're natural weapons. They never work with TWF. Enjoy the unpenalized attack bonus and full STR bonus on damage for both claws. If you get hasted, you get a 3rd claw. That's it.
I believe there is a feat that allows you to use a natural weapon as if it were manufactured, but the name escapes me.
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If you were to take more than the two claw attacks allowed to you via natural weapons(assuming you only have two claws), then it would become the domain of two-weapon fighting. In that case, you'd get the according penalties and the rest of your natural weapons were treated as secondary attacks.
Again, anyone can TWF, they just need to suck up the penalties. A warrior might hit a goblin with an earthbreaker and kick them as well all the while suffering the horrendous penalties you get for having none of the feats.
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Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
Here, have some rules:
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
So if I am reading this right -- Two Weapon Fighting can reduce attack penalties IF you are attacking with both a weapon and a natural attack (for example, sword in one hand, claw in the other). I can't find anywhere that says whether the natural attack would be considered light but I assume it would, since unarmed strikes are light. The description is not clear as to whether you need both or one feat (strictest interpretation would be that you need both TWF to reduce penalties for your weapon hand and multiattack for your claw).
Now, if you just have 2 claw attacks, you don't NEED any kind of feat to be able to attack with both of them without penalty. Per natural attack rules, you attack with both claws with full BAB, no penalty. For example, if you are an abyssal sorcerer with the claws arcana:
Claws (Su): At 1st level, you can grow claws as a free action. These claws are treated as natural weapons, allowing you to make two claw attacks as a full attack action using your full base attack bonus.
And most any other PC that gets claw attacks have similar claw-ses (HA!) in their description. Likewise, that's how it always works for monsters.
The only time penalties come in is when you are also adding a secondary attack or also attacking with a weapon. This is where Two Weapon Fighting and Multiattack come in.
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Here is how this goes down. You have two claws, you attack with both, and you get full BAB and full BAB. Now you attack with say, armor spikes and claws, you get full BAB, then -5 and -5 with the claws. Multiattack turns those -5s into -2s. Two weapon fighting does not come into play.
Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.So if I am reading this right -- Two Weapon Fighting can reduce attack penalties IF you are attacking with both a weapon and a natural attack (for example, sword in one hand, claw in the other).
That section used to say you took TWF penalties for fighting with manufactured and natural weapons. The bestiary entry contradicted this, so the CRB was changed with errata. It's still a bit messy, though. In short, the only time you have TWF penalties is if you're using the TWF combat style to gain an extra attack with an off-hand manufactured weapon.
I can't find anywhere that says whether the natural attack would be considered light
Because it never matters. If you're using TWF style, the penalties depend on what you're TWF with, the manufactured weapons. The natural weapons don't affect the TWF part, they just become secondary.
For example, if you fight with a Rapier, Dagger, and Bite:
The rapier and dagger attacks are exactly the same regardless of whether you bite or not. The TWF feat will reduce the TWF penalties on the rapier and dagger, but not affect the bite.
That section used to say you took TWF penalties for fighting with manufactured and natural weapons. The bestiary entry contradicted this, so the CRB was changed with errata. It's still a bit messy, though. In short, the only time you have TWF penalties is if you're using the TWF combat style to gain an extra attack with an off-hand manufactured weapon.Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.So if I am reading this right -- Two Weapon Fighting can reduce attack penalties IF you are attacking with both a weapon and a natural attack (for example, sword in one hand, claw in the other).
Grick--bearing in mind that I agree with your final conclusion--I directly copy-pasted the PRD, which is constantly updated with the latest errata. Which means the phrase "two weapon fighting and multiattack can reduce these penalties." I also consulted the FAQ before quoting this.
I could not find any direct quote from the rules that specifically states the TWF penalty issue applies only to weapons and unarmed strikes--if you can I'd love to see it because I think it would help us all out. Please cite your sources.
But I think the interpretation that TWF only applies to your weapon attacks even if also attacking with natural weapons is certainly a very reasonable one, and in line with the wording of the TWF feat itself. But the wording of the natural attacks section is vague.
Generally speaking I'd love to see the language of how natural attacks work entirely rewritten (and all in one place. Sometimes I can see the point to having a Rules Compendium).
I directly copy-pasted the PRD, which is constantly updated with the latest errata. Which means the phrase "two weapon fighting and multiattack can reduce these penalties." I also consulted the FAQ before quoting this.
Page 182—In the Attack section, in the Natural Attacks section, in the third paragraph, delete the following two sentences: “In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks.”
Before the errata, the CRB specifically said you were using TWF if you mixed attacks. They removed those lines, but the resulting text is still a bit messy, as I said.
I could not find any direct quote from the rules that specifically states the TWF penalty issue applies only to weapons and unarmed strikes
Two-Weapon Fighting: "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way."
There is a penalty to your primary hand.
There is a penalty to your off hand.
A bite is neither, so TWF does not give it penalties.
But the wording of the natural attacks section is vague.
Natural Attacks: "Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action... Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type."
If you normally use TWF, and get TWF penalties, then you still do. If you don't, then you don't. If you're just fighting with a greataxe, making normal non-TWF attacks, then by making attacks with natural weapons you still attack with the weapon normally, but treat the natural attack as secondary.
The natural attack is not your primary hand, it's not your off hand, so there are no TWF penalties.
The vagaries I was referring to was the last sentence in the natural attacks section, and I noted the TWF wording was clear. I still think there is something of a contradiction in the rules, because of that last sentence. I appreciate the effort, and I know my initial request was not worded clearly (you were mentioning errata so that's what I was looking for). I'm not going to repeat this any further because again, I think we agree on the best way to interpret everything.
To be sure we're all on the same page...
Let's say I'm a minotaur looking thing. I am attacking with a sword, a dagger, and a gore attack. Let's say my BAB is... 10 and for ease of math, I have no Str/Dex bonus to anything.
I want to TWF with my sword and dagger, and also attack with my gore attack.
Without any feats, my attacks look like:
Sword +6, Dagger +2, Gore +5
(-4 penalty to attacking with 2 weapons with main weapon, -8 to attacking with 2 weapons with light off hand, -5 for secondary natural attack).
With TWF feat, but not Multiattack, my attacks look like:
Sword +8, Dagger +8, Gore +5
(-2 penalty to attacking with 2 weapons, off hand of which is light, with TWF feat, -5 for secondary natural attack)
With TWF feat AND Multiattack:
Sword +8, Dagger +8, Gore +8
(-2 penalty to attacking with 2 weapons etc. etc., -2 penalty to secondary natural attack with Multiattack feat)
With no TWF feat but has multi attack:
Sword +6, Dagger +2, Gore +8
(non-feat penalties for attacking with 2 weapons with light off hand, but reduced penalty to natural attack).
Now, if I drop the dagger, and I attack ONLY with the sword and the gore attack, then my attacks look like
Sword +10, Gore +5
(if no multiattack feat)
or
Sword +10, Gore +8
(with multi attack feat)
IE, TWF doesn't apply at all because there are no off hand weapon attacks. And even if that gore was a claw instead (and thus, a "hand"), the situation would be the same.
And of course if I just wanted to fight with my natural attacks--say I had a claw and a gore -- then it would just be +10/+10 (as both are primary attacks as long as there is no weapon making them secondary).
Apologies for stating the obvious, just checking.
The bestiary is correct. The CRB is incorrect. TWF does not help for natural weapons.
They did errata it, but the errata did not change the meaning which it was supposed to do.
The original version said:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
When they rewrote it the bolded line was left out.
What they are trying to say is that if the monster has multiple limbs that can hold weapons the penalties for the weapons is decreased. It is just written so that without the original version to compare it against it is hard to tell.
Here is James Jacobs responding to this when someone thought the bestiary was in error.
Ah.
Part of the problem, alas, is that this is a rules mechanic that Jason was wrestling with up to the very last second.
The Bestiary rules are correct. The part in the core rules that contradicts this is a fragment, alas, that stuck in there. It should be cleaned up, I agree. It's unfortunate that the confusion is in there, but again, as far as I understand the game and as far as I've been using the rules for the last several volumes of Pathfinder, the rules from the Bestiary are the correct ones.
The vagaries I was referring to was the last sentence in the natural attacks section, and I noted the TWF wording was clear. I still think there is something of a contradiction in the rules, because of that last sentence. I appreciate the effort, and I know my initial request was not worded clearly (you were mentioning errata so that's what I was looking for). I'm not going to repeat this any further because again, I think we agree on the best way to interpret everything.
To be sure we're all on the same page...
<<snip very comprehensive list of examples>>
Apologies for stating the obvious, just checking.
That all looks perfectly correct to me.