I have tested it. Very strong in 1vs1. The 2h weapon wielder attacks, his attack automatically fail and he gets an attack (that it's likely to be a disarm).
Nothign to do with mirror image, displacement or pushing assault. At least a spell has to be cast and can be rupted, and the pushing assault wouldn't it the warrior using crane style (that maybe is also a swashbuckler).
My advice is to give a check to the feat, then do what you want. I'm not sure an hater of melee, since are my favourite characters.
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Actually, it's two feats to deflect one attack per round, the third style allows an attack of opportunity when he does deflect the attack. I was thinking of the Bodyguard-In Harms Way feats which allows one to Aid Another and then intercept the attack. Combine that with Crane Wing, and one could intercept, and then deflect, the attack.Prerequisites: Crane Style, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +5 or monk level 5th.
That's a 4-feats tax. Less if you are a monk or fighter. In the first case then congrats', you are a d8 class without offense. In the second case, congrat', you're a melee class without offense.
I've seen a lot of discussion and builds about these feats, and I'm still not impressed. You are getting a high AC for a low return on offense and while it's a cool gimmick, it is nowhere near what I would consider almost borderline overpowered.
Exactly. That's half your feats for one moderately cool defensive feature. Sure, you can troll t-rexes and other 1-attack monsters, but it's still making you at best...an useful support character, something that all core monks aspired to but never quite got to!
I think it is very powerful.
It does not make monks too powerful though.
The real problem that I see is, that all other monk combat styles pale in comparison to crane style. They really should be more attractive.
Besides, it's not like a spellcaster with these feats can move, cast a spell, and then negate an attack from an enemy closing the distance.
(Short of using Quicken spell, you can't fight defensively and cast a spell in the same round in most cases since fighting defensively is at least a standard action.)
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I think it is very powerful.
It does not make monks too powerful though.
The real problem that I see is, that all other monk combat styles pale in comparison to crane style. They really should be more attractive.
TBH, Snake Style does pretty much the same AND doesn't require you to fight defensively. Sure, it's not automatic, but anybody with half a brain can max Sense Motive so much that it pretty much becomes auto.
TBH, Snake Style does pretty much the same AND doesn't require you to fight defensively. Sure, it's not automatic, but anybody with half a brain can max Sense Motive so much that it pretty much becomes auto.I think it is very powerful.
It does not make monks too powerful though.
The real problem that I see is, that all other monk combat styles pale in comparison to crane style. They really should be more attractive.
Fighting def does not hurt the crane style using monk much. he gets -1 attack and +4 AC vs. everything, where snake style only applies to one attack / round.
Also, sense motive maxed, whats that at lvl 10... sth. like +16, making your mean AC 26.5? Not too great. You could burn a feat on skill focus, but really crane style is just better.
EDIT:
Also, that another style does sth. similar but slighty worse does not make the bulk of the styles any more attractive or viable compared to crane style.
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TBH, Snake Style does pretty much the same AND doesn't require you to fight defensively. Sure, it's not automatic, but anybody with half a brain can max Sense Motive so much that it pretty much becomes auto.I think it is very powerful.
It does not make monks too powerful though.
The real problem that I see is, that all other monk combat styles pale in comparison to crane style. They really should be more attractive.
Fighting def does not hurt the crane style using monk much. he gets -1 attack and +4 AC vs. everything, where snake style only applies to one attack / round.
Also, sense motive maxed, whats that at lvl 10... sth. like +16, making your mean AC 26.5? Not too great. You could burn a feat on skill focus, but really crane style is just better.
Level 10?
10 skill ranks
5 Wisdom (at very least!)
3 class skill
2 Snake Style
6 SF (we're going half-elf for this, it's optimization after all)
That's +26 right off, before anybody is kind enough to buff us, giving you AC of 36.
Well I forgot about the bonus from snake style. 20 Wisdom is in my experience too high for level 10 (or any level). In order to have a viable monk, you have to absolutely max out STR and put your money in boosting STR. With PB 20 or lower you probably can go no higher than starting WIS 14. By lvl 10 you could have a +4 boost item on Wis (I assumed +2), making your WIS 18.
"20 at the very least" I can not agree too.
And another feat for skill focus? Why not just take crane style? Make a qinggong monk with barkskin and you reach AC 30+ (fighting def) easy at lvl 10. Buffed you hit 40 easy-peasy (whereas the snake style AC does not profit from buffs).
Snake style is just the worse choice.
Also:
EDIT:
Also, that another style does sth. similar but slighty worse does not make the bulk of the styles any more attractive or viable compared to crane style.
Is crane style more powerful than OTHER styles? Now THERE is a discussion WORTH having!
Snake Style is pretty strong just for the ability to AoO anyone that misses you. Sort of like Come and Get Me rage power, which is also excellent, but is less penalizing but also much more heavily restricted.
Other than Crane and Snake, there's a few decent styles. I like Boar,Dragon, Monkey, Tiger, and Janni, but none of them have all 3 good feats, usually there's 1 or 2 good ones and the other(s) is awful. Well, Snake Sidewind sucks, but Snake Fang is SO good, snake is still a great feat tree.
The rest are pretty terrible, IMO. Not Crane Style's fault that they suck, though.
At least a spell has to be cast and can be rupted, and the pushing assault wouldn't it the warrior using crane style (that maybe is also a swashbuckler).
Buff spells are cast before combat, you know.
If you can :) Doesn't happens so often...
Snake Style is pretty strong just for the ability to AoO anyone that misses you.
Thats right.
Other than Crane and Snake, there's a few decent styles. I like Boar,Dragon, Monkey, Tiger, and Janni,
They all are significantly worse than crane style though.
Tiger Style is completely worthless IMO, as is Monkey Style.
Boar is mediocre, Dragon is quite OK.
You did not mention Panther Style. This one is OK also.
Monkey can be good with proper build, but crane style works everytime :)
Depends on what character is using them and how. If you're not a monk, then nothing's stronger than just taking the first Dragon style for the awesome mobility for negligible feat taxing. Snake has the benefit of the sense motive pip and working even if you can't fight defensively. Snapping Turtle for the Tetori makes sure you get them coming and going. Nothing better than Mantis for someone specializing in the stunning fists. Marid gives reach to your unarmed attacks, that'll let you avoid and deliver AoOs more often.
After reading both the Monk, and the Combat Style Feat rules carefully, I believe I've found that armor does not inhibit unarmed damage (though it eliminates Flurry and AC Bonus of course, and evasion if it's Medium/Heavy).
Armor also does not seem to inhibit use of style feats. So after toying with melee builds with a combat style tree worked in, Crane can work scarily well with a Duelist and Tiger just lets a Two Handed Fighter more consistently do very heavy attacks, despite the AC penalty.
While a majority of the style feats benefit only with unarmed strikes, I've seen that many can be done merely with one open hand or by only benefiting from the non-unarmed benefits the feats grant.
I'm putting monkey style into my zen archer to troll archers and ray casters.
I'm really not a fan of Panther, I purposely did not list it.
Oh well, house rules time. Melee touch attacks being deflected by touching the character? Yeah, no.
Touching someone with a melee touch spell active does not trigger the spell. The caster has to touch YOU with a melee touch attack roll. That is how it's always been, since 3.0, and ruling otherwise SEVERELY gimps unarmed strikers, grapplers, natural weapon users, and others unfairly.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Cast-a-SpellI forget where, but in 3E it was explained that the charge is actually on the end of a specific limb, such as one of your hands or claws. So someone with Crane Wing, as I said, simply deflects the appendage away from himself without the charged spell touching him. Similar to knife defense where you would try and control the arm the knife is held in or redirect the attack slightly with a well timed block.
Third, it's not a two feat investment to negate ONE melee attack each round. The character must also fight defensively. Many are the situations in which that will not be an option.
It's barely any trouble for Crane Style users to fight defensively. The pros greatly outweigh the cons. I do maintain that it shouldn't be banned though, unless you only use bruisers with like one attack. Most baddies have multiple attacks, and they also have minions (though the Monk can choose to take the minion hits I guess if they're not scary enough).
I'm putting monkey style into my zen archer to troll archers and ray casters.
Yeah, the later 2 feats aren't useful (decent for actual melee monk, though) for Zen Archer, but the base style feat is pretty amazing. Going prone = can't shoot a bow = sad panda.
And that's pretty funny, trolling other ranged users.
Round 1: Activate style, full attack. Drop prone as free action.
Round 2: Stand up as a swift, full attack. Drop prone as free action.
Round3+: Rinse, repeat.
:)
Of course, a crossbowman can just drop prone and stay prone.
Of course then they are using a crossbow and not a bow. Win anyway.
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I'm really not a fan of Panther, I purposely did not list it.
Oh well, house rules time. Melee touch attacks being deflected by touching the character? Yeah, no.Touching someone with a melee touch spell active does not trigger the spell. The caster has to touch YOU with a melee touch attack roll. That is how it's always been, since 3.0, and ruling otherwise SEVERELY gimps unarmed strikers, grapplers, natural weapon users, and others unfairly.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Cast-a-Spell
** spoiler omitted **I forget where, but in 3E it was explained that the charge is actually on the end of a specific limb, such as one of your hands or claws. So someone with Crane Wing, as I said, simply deflects the appendage away from himself without the charged spell touching him. Similar to knife defense where you would try and control the arm the knife is held in or redirect the attack slightly with a well timed block.
This is directly from the Core Rule Book on touch attacks:
"Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates."
If you touch anything or anyone while holding the charge it goes boom? Alright, that's what I'm going to go with.
Nothing is severely going gimp anything, since I'll to play spellcasters to the best of their ability. That doesn't include metagame knowledge, such as "this one is a grappler" or "I'll hold the charge, since the CRB says I can do it indefinitely". Instead, there'll be givers(casters and monsters) and takers (PCs, whatever their role) and I'm going to have them apply the actual defenses, such as high touch ac, luck and saving throws to combat that Harm instead of having a strictly touch attack immune PC in the party. Because, just saying, I know and other GMs know as well that a Crane Wing -able PC will soon learn what's the best to deflect and what's not. A choice between a sword strike and a touch spell? I'd g for the latter, especially if the spell is already known or the monster has been recognized by the party.
I'm putting monkey style into my zen archer to troll archers and ray casters.Yeah, the later 2 feats aren't useful (decent for actual melee monk, though) for Zen Archer, but the base style feat is pretty amazing. Going prone = can't shoot a bow = sad panda.
And that's pretty funny, trolling other ranged users.
Round 1: Activate style, full attack. Drop prone as free action.
Round 2: Stand up as a swift, full attack. Drop prone as free action.
Round3+: Rinse, repeat.:)
Of course, a crossbowman can just drop prone and stay prone.
So can the zen archer with the monkey style feat. Look at it. :p
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It doesn't bother me in the slightest that there are people out there who think these feats are overpowered. What DOES bother me, is that not one of these naysayers has posted their stances as a result from personal experience. Not one has given any examples of play from their games demonstrating how these feats could be overpowered.
The haters just be hatin' yall'.
I find it almost humorous, too, that almost everyone who HAS had gameplay experience with these feats appears to have reached a consensus of "not overpowered."
That, to me at least, is answer enough to the question.
I'm a sucker. I'll play along.
I recently played through Carrion Hill in a party featuring a character with these feats. I was playing a melee character alongside him. By virtue of these feats not only was his AC higher (despite the fact that I was wearing full plate and carrying a heavy shield) but he could also negate an entire melee attack each round.
Any encounter that featured any sort of melee presence I got pummeled, needed regular healing, and had to act carefully. He was nigh invulnerable. In the final encounter, against the giant tentacle monster, the DM assigned one melee attack each against the melee (there was three of us total) with the last one going to a random character. I got hit every time and nearly died. The crane style dude came out without a scratch.
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Just about everything in the game is situationally overpowered.
It doesn't bother me in the slightest that there are people out there who think these feats are overpowered. What DOES bother me, is that not one of these naysayers has posted their stances as a result from personal experience. Not one has given any examples of play from their games demonstrating how these feats could be overpowered.
The haters just be hatin' yall'.
I find it almost humorous, too, that almost everyone who HAS had gameplay experience with these feats appears to have reached a consensus of "not overpowered."
That, to me at least, is answer enough to the question.
I'm a sucker. I'll play along.
I recently played through Carrion Hill in a party featuring a character with these feats. I was playing a melee character alongside him. By virtue of these feats not only was his AC higher (despite the fact that I was wearing full plate and carrying a heavy shield) but he could also negate an entire melee attack each round.
Any encounter that featured any sort of melee presence I got pummeled, needed regular healing, and had to act carefully. He was nigh invulnerable. In the final encounter, against the giant tentacle monster, the DM assigned one melee attack each against the melee (there was three of us total) with the last one going to a random character. I got hit every time and nearly died. The crane style dude came out without a scratch.
Why would a giant tentacle monster attack a bunch of different people and not just rip one apart? I mean I could see them attacking everyone at first in an attempt to see if he could take everyone out, but after that it would probably focus on the most annoying thing, the dude doing the most damage within reach (most likely) or the guy that is the most difficult to hit.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Repel vermin: situationally overpowered.
Snake Panther Boar is better. Just ripping people in half left and right.
Why would a giant tentacle monster attack a bunch of different people and not just rip one apart? I mean I could see them attacking everyone at first in an attempt to see if he could take everyone out, but after that it would probably focus on the most annoying thing, the dude doing the most damage within reach (most likely) or the guy that is the most difficult to hit.This is a thread on crane style... not on second guessing a DM's decisions in a situation you know nothing about >_>
Well, it was an in game example about how Crane style was overpowered, which I found funny because it looked like a fight where Crane style could have been neutralized.
The monk in my game has it and it makes most of my monsters look like useless losers. You're right, it negates charges no questions asked. Then, when he gets his AC up to 29 (and often 30+ with divine buffs), I'm lucky if I hit him once a round to have him laugh my attack off followed by his full attack. He also has Crane Reposte, adding to his staggering combo of damage output and defensive abilities.
His hp is pretty low, however, so if I landed half again as many actual hits per combat he'd drop pretty often. It isn't a fun trade off, but I have to say it is a fair trade off.
Damn, what Lv?
Ah yes Crane wing the melee Deflect arrows nope its fine leave it as is.
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The monk in my game has it and it makes most of my monsters look like useless losers. You're right, it negates charges no questions asked. Then, when he gets his AC up to 29 (and often 30+ with divine buffs), I'm lucky if I hit him once a round to have him laugh my attack off followed by his full attack. He also has Crane Reposte, adding to his staggering combo of damage output and defensive abilities.
His hp is pretty low, however, so if I landed half again as many actual hits per combat he'd drop pretty often. It isn't a fun trade off, but I have to say it is a fair trade off.
Something to consider if it hasn't been brough up already - I don't know if this has been errata'ed, but there's some interesting verbage in the feat's description:
Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you.
There are a lot monsters out there who don't use weapons, and I wouldn't think it applies to natural weapons since the verbage then would simply have been 'melee attack'.
So can the zen archer with the monkey style feat. Look at it. :pI'm putting monkey style into my zen archer to troll archers and ray casters.Yeah, the later 2 feats aren't useful (decent for actual melee monk, though) for Zen Archer, but the base style feat is pretty amazing. Going prone = can't shoot a bow = sad panda.
And that's pretty funny, trolling other ranged users.
Round 1: Activate style, full attack. Drop prone as free action.
Round 2: Stand up as a swift, full attack. Drop prone as free action.
Round3+: Rinse, repeat.:)
Of course, a crossbowman can just drop prone and stay prone.
Its all Snake style for my Zen Archer. Skill ranks in Sense Motive + Class Skill + Snake Style's bonus + Skill Focus + Wisdom modifier makes him pretty much immune to one attack every round - it even works against touch attacks.
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So should the Crane style dude have come out the same as you?
Yes.
It wasn't just the final encounter either where I took a beating and the crane styler came out smelling like a rose. The final encounter was just the best example. At least in the other encounters my AC (which was lower than his anyway) protected me from some of the punishment.
Crane Style shouldn't reward you with good AC and immunity to a melee attack. It should work more like the Stalwart feats where you can trade one form of mitigation for another.
Natural weapons ARE weapons. What's more they are often MELEE weapons. They can be deflected just as readily as swords and axes.
Now, if Crane Wing said "manufactured melee weapons" then you might have a case.
I'm a sucker. I'll play along.
I recently played through Carrion Hill in a party featuring a character with these feats. I was playing a melee character alongside him. By virtue of these feats not only was his AC higher (despite the fact that I was wearing full plate and carrying a heavy shield) but he could also negate an entire melee attack each round.
Any encounter that featured any sort of melee presence I got pummeled, needed regular healing, and had to act carefully. He was nigh invulnerable. In the final encounter, against the giant tentacle monster, the DM assigned one melee attack each against the melee (there was three of us total) with the last one going to a random character. I got hit every time and nearly died. The crane style dude came out without a scratch.
How did those feats make his AC higher? How is he negating an entire melee attack when he can only block the first one?
What was you AC and what was his?These are the types of answers that provide proof.
@RD and Gorbacz:
Stop countering all the points. Every time I think of something one of you has already said it. :)
@no one person
Natural attacks are melee attacks, just like attacks with manufactured weapons are. That is why they use the melee attack roll rules instead of the ranged attack rules.
what. a 20 on a stat isnt that insane. Its an 18 with a +2 bonus from a Headband or 16 with +4 headband. Its reasonable imo
Its not impossible. But bear in mind that Wis is a secondary stat for a melee monk, and that I already conceded a 20 is "possible" but on the very high end. The post I was referring to said that the monk has a 20 "at the very least", which is silly.
A well built PB <=20 melee monk will not have more than a starting Wis of 14. A 20 is then pretty much out of reach at lvl 10.
Its also unlikely that he invested 16k in a +4 Wis headband, when he needs those STR boosters, monks robe, amulet of mighty fists soo badly.
There are a lot monsters out there who don't use weapons, and I wouldn't think it applies to natural weapons since the verbage then would simply have been 'melee attack'.
Has this issue been clarified officially?
Wiggs has to prove that only manufactured weapons are melee weapons, and natural attacks or not. I don't this going well for him.
They should have used the term "melee attack", but if you can use a weapon in melee then it is a melee weapon. They definitely are not ranged weapons which is the only option left.
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How did those feats make his AC higher? How is he negating an entire melee attack when he can only block the first one?
What was you AC and what was his?
These are the types of answers that provide proof.
His AC is better because fighting defensively gives him +3 AC for only -2 to hit. I could have fought defensively too and that would have made our AC the same but then my attack bonus would be a lot lower than his.
His AC was 24. Mine was 22.
Blocking an entire melee attack = Blocking one
How did those feats make his AC higher? How is he negating an entire melee attack when he can only block the first one?
What was you AC and what was his?
These are the types of answers that provide proof.His AC is better because fighting defensively gives him +3 AC for only -2 to hit. I could have fought defensively too and that would have made our AC the same but then my attack bonus would be a lot lower than his.
His AC was 24. Mine was 22.
Blocking an entire melee attack = Blocking one
By level 5 you could have had a 24 AC without even trying.
Fullplate=+9
Heavy Shield=+2
Base=10
Total=21
enchanting the shield and armor to +1 give you a 23
+1 dex now makes it a 24.
Necklace of natural armor or ring of protection makes it a 25, so if those two points made that much of a difference you could have had them. It seems to me that the GM made low rolls if the monster's additional attacks always hit you, but did not hit him, seeing as how it was only a 2 point difference.
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites,...
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon.....
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon
It kills verisimilitude for me since a block should be a block, but the rules are what they are.
His AC is better because fighting defensively gives him +3 AC for only -2 to hit.
Actually with a crane style monk and a few ranks in acrobatics its -1/+4.