as a GM do you feel like you should change your PC's alignments based on their roleplaying actions and choices made?
I have a player who enjoys killing, raping, pillaging, and thieving wherever he can. I don't have a problem with this because it fits his character and he has the skills to back it up.
however I'm not liking that he has a true neutral deity and he claims that "he's chaotic neutral so he gets to do whatever he wants"
I told him that he either needs to change his alignment or cut the crap and he told me that if I tried to force him to play an alignment he didn't want to he would just leave the game.
How do you guys handle problems like this and do you have those CN players that just rain destruction on everything? I've been friends with the guy for a while and don't want something stupid to ruin our gaming group either
Boot him.
Your player just said "Tolerate my crap or I leave". Call him on it and let him leave.
This unless he is hosting the game, then it becomes "find a new place to play".
Player's choose their character's initial alignment.
Their actions decide the rest.
A chaotic evil character does what his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal.
His character's actions are a text book example of CE.
Woot, Chaotic Stupid!
For some players, Chaotic neutral is just an excuse to play Chaotic Evil with plot immunity.
Personally, I would boot him if he thinks his actions shouldn't change his alignement.
If that isn't an option, then just make his actions have consequences. Eventually, he will get caught by someone leading to jailtime, or death. The best moment would the guards catching up to him, and the rest of the players given the option to turn him over for trial for crimes he actually did commit, or die along side him.
Subtle point but you are not forcing him to play any alignment you are simply changing his alignment to reflect the way he is playing. He can still behave however he wants.
As to chaotic neutral meaning that he gets to do whatever he wants :/ Ask him what he thinks he'd have to do to become evil. After all, the way I see it if that was the case the alignment chaotic evil wouldn't even exist.
Once you have explained to him the difference between neutral and evil and perhaps more importantly the fact that the chaotic side of his alignment relates only to laws, keeping his word, and such, and not to morality, tell him if he persists to act evil he'll become evil. If he ignores you and continues to act evil I would change his alignment and tell him he can RP finding a new god (I assume he is a divine spell caster or I don't even understand the issue).
I think walking out on a game for having his alignment changed is a little childish. Now if you nerf his character or something I could see being irritated but even then as long as he can switch gods and get his powers back I think it's a silly reason to walk out on a game.
If he walks tell him it's his call but you'd rather he stayed and that you can't just do what he wants because he threatens to leave. Perhaps even ask him if he'd prefer to bring in a new character with a different personality so that there would be no conflict.
Mainly, I think you need to talk to him about alignment and clearly explain the difference between chaotic neutral and chaotic evil. Also I really do think you need to ask him the question I stated above: What does he thinks he'd have to do to become evil? I thinking forcing him to think about it might help.
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In my game, alignment reflects the character's actions and outlook: it's a description, not a prescription.
If a character is committing acts of murder, rape, and robbery, then he's playing an evil character, regardless of what it says on the "alignment" line of his character sheet. I'd be okay with a CN character being extremely selfish and boorish, and not caring what others thought about him. But a murderous rapist? That's Chaotic Evil, not Chaotic Neutral.
Depending on the campaign world, if the character is doing stuff against the tenets of his religion, there could be in-game consequences (excommunicated from the church; an ecclesiastical trial; hunted down as a heretic; recruited by an actually-evil cult; etc).
If he's a divine spellcaster who is acting against his god, then there would be direct consequences (not getting the spells he asked for; losing domain powers; etc.)
If he's not a divine spellcaster, then there could be more mundane consequences to being a criminal. I'd have a platoon of paladins/ the local thieves guild/ the town guard/ the Hellknights/ an angry pitchfork-and-torch-wielding mob (or whatever was appropriate for the campaign) show up to get rid of this murdering rapist.
You could just (by GM fiat) declare to yourself that he's CE, regardless of what it says on the character sheet.
Of course, the other thing to do would be to call his bluff: Stick to your principles as a GM, tell the player to knock it the hell off and/or accept the alignment change, and let it be up to him whether he wants to continue to play in your game.
If this were my game, I'd probably have the "this isn't working out" conversation and tell him that he wasn't welcome at my table any more.
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In my game, alignment reflects the character's actions and outlook: it's a description, not a prescription.
Haladir-- all-around excellent post.
Haladir's set out and explained very well, some of the things about how to handle alignment and in-game actions that I entirely agree with. The quoted statement sums up one of the key points about how alignment is best handled in the game, at least in the ways that I like to play (YMMV/IMO, as always).
You mention the character follows a true neutral deity, and is within one step of that deity's alignment; is the character a cleric? If so, that would change the discussion greatly.
Even a chaotic neutral character has goals. These goals should define the character's actions, and though a chaotic neutral character is supposed to be spontaneous he or she should still be attempting to accomplish those goals.
In this specific instance I would change the character's alignment based on his or her actions. For most practical purposes this will have no ramification, unless you don't allow your player to run evil characters; as was mentioned earlier, the character is textbook chaotic evil. Don't worry about with the player's demands in this instance; you are the GM and, in matters such as this, the final arbiter. There's only so much a GM can do to appease players until you can't budge any more. If the player has issues with this, then he needs to leave.
As a final comment, have you tried telling your player that you're not forcing him to play an alignment he doesn't want to? What you would be actually doing is changing the character's alignment to how its being played. What you player's doing, how he's playing the game, wouldn't change at all.
to clarify the player is a cleric and as such I've tried to explain why he should change his alignment/deity or change his actions. And yes I've explained that it wouldn't require him to act differently, only find a new deity perhaps. The only problem I'm having is his reluctance to 'change' his alignment. After reading the posts here I think I'm going to talk to him about it before the next game and try to explain it more clearly so that we can continue on. I don't want to lose the party healer, but he can always be replaced with a wand.
also Haladir, thank you for explaining it all so clearly, I'm gonna let him read your post when we talk to try to clarify
OP. i think i may know why this problem player doesn't want to change his alignment.
if he can claim to be good or at least neutral, he can get access to spontaneous cures and channel positive energy. allowing him to double as a healer while never giving up the spells he really intends to use. a munchkin desire. by having healing options that don't interfere with his ability to function. i imagine that he feels he can prepare spells more convenient to his desires and just swap for cures on the fly.
You can't force someone to play an alignment, the player does that all on their own. The player can't lay claim to an alignment they aren't playing. You can affect how his god sees him, and if his deity doesn't like his deity doesn't give. If your player is going to throw a tantrum, boot him until he grows up. Roleplaying is a shared experience, self indulging fantasies can be done in private time.
Clerics who don't follow the code of their chosen deity lose their power. You've told this player that his behaviour doesn't match the alignment he has written down, so make surer he's aware that if he continues to behave in an evil way, his true neutral god will punish him. If the player still doesn't take the hint, you could maybe have his god give him a warning he might respond to: no cleric powers for a day or so. If he finds a new god, he gets his powers back; if he changes his behaviour he gets his powers back. If he does neither, he loses class abilities until he atones, as per RAW.
Maybe I'm being too generous, but losing all cleric abilities really hurts, so I'm in favour of handing out warnings and giving the player the opportunity to change before the real penalty kicks in.
Make one thing very clear to the player, though: something must change (either his behaviour or his god), or he will lose his cleric abilities. That's non-negotiable.
Subtly change his alignment.
Then bring in the Paladins.
"What do you mean he's smiting me?!"
I have a player who enjoys killing, raping, pillaging, and thieving wherever he can. I don't have a problem with this because it fits his character and he has the skills to back it up.
however I'm not liking that he has a true neutral deity and he claims that "he's chaotic neutral so he gets to do whatever he wants
Funny that you don't mind him raping, murdering, looting, etc. but claiming a true neutral deity is one step too far! ;)
Anyway, it sounds to me like the kind of player who uses the game to vicariously live out his cruel and wicked fantasies. When asked to simply have two words on his character sheet reflect his character's true alignment, he throws a little tantrum and threatens to leave? Sounds like you're better off without this secret sociopath.
instead of branding the guy as a sociopath and kicking him out for his sick fantasies. why don't you consult him on those ideas and see if there is any fodder you can incorperate into your campaign.
you can tell him, that if he is willing to change his alignment and pick a new appropriate deity. that it opens the door to him resuming his acts and that whole new immoral gates are unlocked. but tell him that he may only do these if he is evil.
the players with the sickest fantasies and creepiest fetishes always offer the best source of DMing material. you just need to both agree to resolve things accordingly.
also Haladir, thank you for explaining it all so clearly, I'm gonna let him read your post when we talk to try to clarify
Aw, shucks... Thanks!