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Suppose a Wizard/7 is in possession of a Scroll of Limited Wish (CL 13).
She can attempt to activate the scroll without using UMD, but she must make a caster level check vs DC 14.
Can she instead make a DC 33 UMD check to emulate a Wizard/13, and therefore not need to make a caster level check?
The UMD rules text in question is:
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20....
Compare UMD "Use wand" and "Use a scroll".
Requirements for "use wand":
A) The user must have the spell on her class list.
With UMD you emulate the "spell on her class list" thing so that you can use a wand (DC20).
Requirements for "use a scroll":
A) The user must have the spell on her class list.
B) The user must have the requisite ability score.
For wands you need only A independently from your caster level = UMD DC20
For scrolls you need A depending on your caster level = UMD DC20 + caster level
Additionaly you need B and maybe you have to roll a second UMD check to emulate the ability score.
UMD for scrolls is a combined UMD and caster level check.
A lvl20 rogue with UMD 40+ would have the same chance to cast a first level spell from a scroll like a lvl1 rogue with UMD 4 ..
UMD has specific instructions for scrolls. Specific rules over ride general ones.
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Caster level is not a class feature; it is a measure of attainment that modifies many class features, including spellcasting. Ergo, it cannot be emulated with UMD.
But a very nice try!
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Thank you all for your responses, but I'm still a little in the dark.
Maybe if I revise the question?
Suppose a Rogue/7 with an Int of 17 wants to use UMD to activate a Scroll of Limited Wish (CL13).
The rogue attempts a UMD check vs DC33 (20 + scroll's caster level).
She gets a 35 on the UMD check.
Since she has the required Int score to cast a 7th level Wizard spell, she may now use the scroll "as if [she] had [Limited Wish] spell on [her] class spell list."
To use a scroll, she must make a caster level check against a DC of the caster level of the scroll plus one.
What is her caster level?
Is it:
A) 15 (her emulated level of Wizard per her UMD result)
b) 13 (the level she was attempting to emulate)
c) 7 (her character level)
d) 0 (you can't emulate a caster level???)
e) Another UMD check, minus 20
f) something else entirely
To put it as simply as possible, when using UMD to activate a scroll, how do I determine my caster level?
Thanks again, everyone.
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Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check. This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.
Emphasis Mine. You need a UMD check to emulate the lack of a proper ability score in addition to a UMD check to use the scroll itself.
Ergo, if you get a 20 in UMD your effective ability score to meet the prerequisite is 5. This means you need a minimum UMD of bonus of +6 to even have a chance of using a scroll (unless you met the ability prerequisite). For somebody like a Ninja or a Bard who has UMD as a class skill as well as a decent charisma this is possible at level 1 and goes up for every rank put in UMD.
EDIT: Quote fail. Also, according to SRD you use your caster level to decipher a scroll. This is how you activate it:
Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
•The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
•The user must have the spell on her class list.
•The user must have the requisite ability score.If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a scroll mishap. A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does. If the caster level check fails but no mishap occurs, the scroll is not expended.
Emphasis Mine. Since you have no caster level, you instead make a UMD check, wheras a wizard only needs to decipher the scroll via spellcraft, then he can cast it. If his caster level is too low (much like if the associated ability score is too low for a non-caster) he must make a caster check to emulate the proper caster level. Much the same way, the non-magic user must make an additional check to emulate the proper ability score.
So all in all using a scroll looks like this for a wizard:
Spellcraft-Decipher scroll: DC 20 + spell level
and if his caster level is too low:
Caster level check: DC (required) Caster Level + 1
And using a scroll for a Rogue would look like this:
UMD-Decipher the scroll: DC 25 + spell level
UMD-Activate the scroll: DC (required) Caster level + 20
and if the associated ability score is too low:
UMD-Required ability score = UMD check -15
This help?
EDIT: further revised for clarity
see above
I'm assuming that UMD saying you "activate" the scroll is where the caster level bypass is intended to be interpreted. To be honest this is how I'm going to interpret this until i get an official response from Paizo.
Thank you all for your responses, but I'm still a little in the dark.
Maybe if I revise the question?Suppose a Rogue/7 with an Int of 17 wants to use UMD to activate a Scroll of Limited Wish (CL13).
The rogue attempts a UMD check vs DC33 (20 + scroll's caster level).
She gets a 35 on the UMD check.
Since she has the required Int score to cast a 7th level Wizard spell, she may now use the scroll "as if [she] had [Limited Wish] spell on [her] class spell list."
To use a scroll, she must make a caster level check against a DC of the caster level of the scroll plus one.
What is her caster level?
Is it:A) 15 (her emulated level of Wizard per her UMD result)
b) 13 (the level she was attempting to emulate)
c) 7 (her character level)
d) 0 (you can't emulate a caster level???)
e) Another UMD check, minus 20
f) something else entirelyTo put it as simply as possible, when using UMD to activate a scroll, how do I determine my caster level?
Thanks again, everyone.
Simple answer: b)
Longer answer is this spell would be cast at 13th level (or answer b) ... because the spell effects are based upon the writer of the scroll, not the person reading it. Unless specified, the writer of a scroll is presumed to have only the minimum level required to cast the spell, although a Decipher Scroll check should tell you right away if this scroll was made by a caster at a higher level.I think I understand the reason of your question in that Limited Wish lets you duplicate another 5th level or lower spell where the level is important (like what level is the fireball I just used my limited wish to cast), but again it comes down to the writer of the scroll not the "user".
Hope that helps answer "Your" question ;)
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Thank you all for your responses, but I'm still a little in the dark.
Maybe if I revise the question?Suppose a Rogue/7 with an Int of 17 wants to use UMD to activate a Scroll of Limited Wish (CL13).
The rogue attempts a UMD check vs DC33 (20 + scroll's caster level).
She gets a 35 on the UMD check.
Since she has the required Int score to cast a 7th level Wizard spell, she may now use the scroll "as if [she] had [Limited Wish] spell on [her] class spell list."
To use a scroll, she must make a caster level check against a DC of the caster level of the scroll plus one.
What is her caster level?
Is it:A) 15 (her emulated level of Wizard per her UMD result)
b) 13 (the level she was attempting to emulate)
c) 7 (her character level)
d) 0 (you can't emulate a caster level???)
e) Another UMD check, minus 20
f) something else entirelyTo put it as simply as possible, when using UMD to activate a scroll, how do I determine my caster level?
Thanks again, everyone.
Simple answer: b)
Longer answer is this spell would be cast at 13th level (or answer b) ... because the spell effects are based upon the writer of the scroll, not the person reading it. Unless specified, the writer of a scroll is presumed to have only the minimum level required to cast the spell, although a Decipher Scroll check should tell you right away if this scroll was made by a caster at a higher level.
I think I understand the reason of your question in that Limited Wish lets you duplicate another 5th level or lower spell where the level is important (like what level is the fireball I just used my limited wish to cast), but again it comes down to the writer of the scroll not the "user".Hope that helps answer "Your" question ;)
That doesn't answer the question at all, as the question was not what the spell's caster level is, but what the Rogue's caster level is for the purpose of a caster level check that seems to be required to cast the spell.
That doesn't answer the question at all, as the question was not what the spell's caster level is, but what the Rogue's caster level is for the purpose of a caster level check that seems to be required to cast the spell.
The rogue is not a spellcaster (CL 0).
That doesn't answer the question at all, as the question was not what the spell's caster level is, but what the Rogue's caster level is for the purpose of a caster level check that seems to be required to cast the spell.The rogue is not a spellcaster (CL 0).
Unless the rogue uses UMD to emulate the class feature of "Spells", in which case their caster level is equal to result-20.
So to use a CL 13 scroll, the rogue would need a 33 on their UMD check to emulate a 13th level caster.
Which just so happens to be the DC of "Activate a scroll".
Interesting conicidence, don't you think?
Unless the rogue uses UMD to emulate the class feature of "Spells", in which case their caster level is equal to result-20.
Not true. Caster level is not a class feature, and as a result cannot be emulated by UMD. It is a derived measure of a character's actual spallcasting ability and determined by the levels the character has taken in a spellcasting class. UMD device allows a rogue to emulate the ability to cast spells, but that rogue cannot actually cast spells, is still not a spellcaster, and as a result boasts CL 0.
"Spells" is a class feature, and when you use UMD to emulate a class feature, "your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check minus 20" (pg. 109). And, for most spellcasting characters, her caster level "is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell" (pg. 208). That's the RAW.
I never really thought about it that deeply before this thread, but now I would say that a non-spellcaster would need an extra UMD check. I'm also inclined to believe that a spellcaster could voluntarily make that extra check to use UMD to emulate the "Spells" class feature -- whether of his own class or a different one -- just for a chance at a higher effective level in that class; I mean, it doesn't say they can't.
And, for most spellcasting characters, her caster level "is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell" (pg. 208). That's the RAW.
Emphasis is mine. Caster Level is determined by class level. Class level is not something that can be emulated by UMD, and as such Caster Level cannot be emulated, either.
Consider a rogue utilizing UMD to emulate the ability to cast wizard spells. The rules for Caster Level state that a character's CL "... is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell." Therefore the rogue's CL is going to be equal to the character's wizard class levels, in this case resulting in CL 0. This does not mean the character is going to fail to cast spells from scrolls. It simply means that it is more difficult for the character to pull off such a feat, and that the possibility of failure will always be present.
Which just so happens to be the DC of "Activate a scroll".
Interesting conicidence, don't you think?
Bobson, I dont think its a coincidence at all!
*scare chord*
But seriously, I'm 99% certain that the listed DC for activating a scroll is reminder/clarification text included so that you dont have to ask "Can I emulate Spellcasting as a class feature for emulating scrolls?", because thats definately how the DC appears to be determined, and is a slightly disguised DC for emulating Spellcasting as a class feature. Though of course, UMD doesn't actually say this...
Which to me, makes this whole thread particularly ironic.
I don't know about RAW, but using UMD to pass the Caster Level Check instead of your actual Caster level seems more than appropriate to me, and something that should be allowed. So I hit FAQ, mostly in the hope of Errata to explicitly allow that option. I don't like that taking a 1 level dip in a Caster Class means you can use less scrolls than somebody who has no Caster levels.
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I think we've got it narrowed down to a few possible answers on this...
1) A Rogue's Caster Level is always 0, which means it gets progressively harder for him to cast higher level spells
2) The existing UMD check to be able to use a scroll includes emulating the caster level check
3) An additional UMD check is required to emulate the appropriate caster level
4) The Rogue's caster level for this purpose is effectively his class level (this one I admit is unlikely)
In the case of 1 and 4, a corollary is that a bard, for example, wishing to cast a divine scroll would have to make a caster level check after the UMD check.
Another question... could a bard with a high enough UMD use a UMD check in place of a caster level check for a higher level spell? (if your UMD was high enough with various bonuses, this might be worthwhile)
Unfortunately, we don't have any official response as to which possibility is correct.
Using the UMD check is almost always going to require a higher roll. I only say "always because even with UMD maxed out I don't see the UMD check being easier except for a corner case.
As for activating scrolls, you could use UMD instead, but I don't know why anyone would.
If you use UMD you must make the listed check. You caster level does not apply to the UMD check.
Keronian the answer is #1. Making that caster level check is the first part of the UMD check after deciphering the written spell, and yes higher level spells are harder to cast. Even the caster with the actual class has a more difficult time with them.
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.
Once you get past that you have to emulate the ability score.
Which just so happens to be the DC of "Activate a scroll".
Interesting conicidence, don't you think?
Bobson, I dont think its a coincidence at all!
*scare chord*
But seriously, I'm 99% certain that the listed DC for activating a scroll is reminder/clarification text included so that you dont have to ask "Can I emulate Spellcasting as a class feature for emulating scrolls?", because thats definately how the DC appears to be determined, and is a slightly disguised DC for emulating Spellcasting as a class feature. Though of course, UMD doesn't actually say this...
Which to me, makes this whole thread particularly ironic.
Exactly!
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Concerro, can you give a reason that your explanation is better than the others? A reference somewhere that clarifies?
Honestly, my feeling is that KrispyXIV's assessment is correct, that the UMD check to use a scroll IS essentially a check to emulate a class feature (spell casting of the appropriate level) simply because it's consistent with other uses of the skill. I think a clearer way to state the way UMD works in this case is that, rather than allowing you to cast the spell as though it were on your spell list, you are in fact emulating the ability to cast spells of that class at that level. Unfortunately, it doesn't state it quite so clearly, and I don't see any official statement to clarify this case.
And of course the ability score has to be emulated if it's not naturally high enough, because simply having the spell casting capability of that level isn't enough if your stat isn't high enough.
Consider a rogue utilizing UMD to emulate the ability to cast wizard spells. The rules for Caster Level state that a character's CL "... is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell." Therefore the rogue's CL is going to be equal to the character's wizard class levels, in this case resulting in CL 0.
Well... there is a mathematical difference between having zero levels, and having no levels. In the first case the CL would indeed be zero, but in the second the CL would simply not exist. Of course, natural languages do not make that distinction, which adds to the confusion in this case.
Concerro, can you give a reason that your explanation is better than the others? A reference somewhere that clarifies?
Honestly, my feeling is that KrispyXIV's assessment is correct, that the UMD check to use a scroll IS essentially a check to emulate a class feature (spell casting of the appropriate level) simply because it's consistent with other uses of the skill. I think a clearer way to state the way UMD works in this case is that, rather than allowing you to cast the spell as though it were on your spell list, you are in fact emulating the ability to cast spells of that class at that level. Unfortunately, it doesn't state it quite so clearly, and I don't see any official statement to clarify this case.
And of course the ability score has to be emulated if it's not naturally high enough, because simply having the spell casting capability of that level isn't enough if your stat isn't high enough.
If they are saying that the DC for using a scroll, and emulating a caster level are the same for an obvious, but unwritten reason then I am not disagreeing with them.
I was only stating that you must use the UMD skill when emulating your check, and the your actual caster level does not factor into it by RAW or RAI, if you decide to use UMD.
And, for most spellcasting characters, her caster level "is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell" (pg. 208). That's the RAW.Emphasis is mine. Caster Level is determined by class level. Class level is not something that can be emulated by UMD, and as such Caster Level cannot be emulated, either.
I think you should have bolded the word "most" instead of what you did emphasise. Nothing in that quote argues against the assumption that Caster level is part and parcel of the "Spells" class feature, which can be emulated.
Consider the paladin.
Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3.
The paladin goes three levels without spells, and her caster level is always three lower than her class level. Likewise, many prestige classes increase your caster level, but they certainly don't count as class levels in the original casting class, nor do prestige class levels which don't advance your spellcasting increase your caster level.
Clearly, there's a link between the number of levels which advance the Spells class feature and your caster level. In fact, there's a better link than between your total levels and your caster level. There's also no RAW to disagree with this linkage, because every definition of caster level in the core book uses general terms like "Most" or "Generally".
Given all that, the only logical and consistent conclusion I can come to is that it's the progression of the Spells class feature which grants caster level, and as a class feature it gets emulated at a DC of 20+(level you want to be).