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| 16 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The recent discussions about stealth and hiding had me re read uncanny dodge, and I noticed something I had always missed:
it don't protect against losing your dexterity if you are blinded, in total darkness or even if the other guy is simply using stealth (none of those things grant the invisible condition).
A Barbarian Uncanny dodge is even weaker (but I did know that) as it will not protect you from losing your dexterity to a invisible opponent, it protect you only from being flat footed by a invisible opponent.
It is a intended effect or it is a oversight?
Or there is a FAQ somewhere that I have missed?
Evidence:
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.
This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.
If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian gains the ability to react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, even if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A barbarian with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against her.If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
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Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a barbarian can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has barbarian levels.
If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
Pre-emptive note:
Flat footed is not the same as losing your dexterity to AC.
When you are blind the opponent is effectively invisible to you.
Blinded: The creature cannot see.....
Invisible: Invisible creatures are visually undetectable.
If you can't see the creature then it is visually undetectable to you. If you are looking for something that says that in exact terms then I don't think such as exact statement exist.
Mechanically not being able to see someone because you are blind or because they are invisible is pretty much the same thing with respect to that opponent.
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Mechanically, i.e. RAI, yes.
RAW? No, invisible is a specific condition in the game. And it don't apply to stealth use.
The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.
The final effect is very similar, but they aren't the same thing.
The blind character can't see the enemy and the terrain.When your enemy is invisible you can see normally the terrain and you can have some visual clue (you get a +20/+40 to the difficulty of perceiving someone, not an "infinite difficulty").
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It would write then that you don't lose your Dex bonus, otherwise this applies to flat-footed and invisible , if you are blind , you can't see, everyone is invisible to you (consider it like this, barb is blind, but he can still hear stuff).
If you were stuned tho, that would be different thing and uncanny dodge wouldn't apply.
Did you try looking in Faq ?
A lot of rules don't work by RAW alone which is why RAI is often the way to go.
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FAQ has noting relevant under the Core Rulebook.
AFAIK there is noting useful in the FAQ of the other rulebooks, but I could have missed something.
To repeat it again: invisibility is a specific condition, and being blind don't reference it in any way. Nor using stealth reference it.
So RAW when you are blinded the other guys aren't invisible [in game condition] to you. They are visually undetectable.
Similar but not identical.
So almost certainly RAI but not RAW.
DR nobody is disagreeing with you. :)
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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It's so unfortunate that only Robots are allowed to GM Pathfinder games. These little anomalies are really very hard for them to process.
If only there were some way we could improve their logic circuits, to help them overcome all the minor peculiarities that pop up in the rules!
:)
But Seriously. These two abilities have the same name, and they're worded almost exactly the same. They even count as the same ability if you multiclass. The obvious intent is that they work the same.
Uncanny dodge is spider-sense. You don't need to sense (such as by seeing) an attack coming to dodge out of its way. The only times it doesn't function is if you are physically incapable of moving out of the way, or if someone fakes you out.
The fact that they stack means they were intended to work the same. If you want to FAQ so it can be fixed to read the exact same way I have no problem doing so.
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Abilities with the same name can have different mechanics. Generally it happen to creature abilities (look breath weapon for example). Normally specific text trump a general rule. If the ability was meant to be identical it would have been very easy to do a copy and paste job.
While I will not claim that it was the intended goal, I can see why a developer could have wanted to give a sightly stronger ability to the rogue or rogue/other class with uncanny dodge combo against a barbarian (a barbarian/rogue would get the rogue uncanny dodge).
Blindness is different enough to fighting a invisible opponent that the developers could have intended it to work differently.
Uncanny dodge not helping against a stealthed opponent is almost certainly an oversight, at least for the rogue version, and something that would be better to correct.
As apparently no one has anything beside "I think ROI is ...", I think that at this point it reasonable to hit the FAQ button and see if we get a reply.
I waited to be sure I wasn't missing anything.
I understand, but since they are intended to stack, even when from different classes they should work the same.
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Note that for them to stack, you need to have Uncanny dodge not simply as a class feature, but as an acquired ability.
So there is no situation in which a rogue+other class combo will benefit for the rogue uncanny dodge if he hasn't acquired it.
And the difference between the abilities is in Uncanny doddge, not in the improved version.
I noticed that. It has come up before also, but I think that was before we had the FAQ buttons. I will hit the button also.
