Now, yes, the DM is certainly allowed to try to make the party come up with a creative solution, one that doesn’t involve the rogue making a high roll with a maxed out skill. But if the PLAYERS can’t do so, the CHARACTERS should be able to do so by means of rolling excellent skill checks.
I knew this was bothering me so much for a reason. It reminded me of when my GM was asking US the riddles instead of our characters!
Most of us were not riddle people, and the person who was, was not in the mood that day (for personal reasons). That was not a great session.
Personal lesson: if a "puzzle" takes a long time, just hand-wave it after like 10 minutes. It's not changing anything, nor worth the strife.
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Why is the party not making MONEY out of this trap?
Its a trap that does UNLIMITED fireballs every 10secs!
They should take over the dungeon and sell the use of the trap as a 1) Waste Incinerator, 2)Instant BBQ, 3) Execution chamber, or 4) a Fire Elemental/Efreeti "honey-moon" suite.
There are TONs of methods for the party to get $$$ out of this!
Be creative! I'm sure this is what the GM is thinking off!
(The above is meant as a joke. Apparently sarcastic tones don't translate to words well...)
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What levels are you guys to encounter a CR 9 trap and not have immediate access to fog clouds, invisibility, darkness, and dispel magic?Read closer. I already said that our Wizard could prepare all his level 2 slots to bypass this encounter but we are paranoid because we don't know how many encounters are on the other side of the door or if we will be able to rest to regain spells any time soon once the door is open. In the past our DM has use big "you can totally bypass this easy and I know what slots you will have to use up to do it, enjoy fighting a big encounter without access to the other things that could have been in those slots immediately after. Or you know you could think of a clever way to get through with only moderate loss of resources with more risk involved." We are also on a deadline so we can't stop to regain spells that often.
Everything I've read here so far falls into the former category.
You're totally right. There's no way a wizard with second level spell slots should be expected to have darkness, fog cloud, invisibility, or any other NUMBER of sight-impairing spells from multiple schools.
If you make a thread asking for suggestions and then ignore all suggestions, um... good luck?
EDIT: Or yeah, silent image of a wall would also work.
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but we are paranoid because we don't know how many encounters are on the other side of the door or if we will be able to rest to regain spells any time soon once the door is open.
And I think here is the real problem.
GM: I can't challenge the group if they always go into an encounter with 100% of resources, spells. So he comes up with a trap that ensures it can be bypassed - but at the cost of resources.
Players: If we can't bypass a challenge without getting back all resources than it's not fair.
To me it seem irrelevant what exactly the trap is - we have seen LOTS of solutions here and even a lot of players / GMs who would like to run into the trap / use it themselves.
But the gaming group needs to sort out the issue of GM and player expectations. It seems the GM would like to challenge his players while the players are adverse to risk.
I've been there myself as GM and this isn't easy as you need to find a compromise or one party (player or GM) has only limited fun.
But it makes no sense that the edge of perception of an arcane eye is, in and of itself, in any way perceptible by the rogue. By rule, there is "something" to detect @ the source of the fireball, so he gets a shot, but the distance modifier is appropriate. As is an illumination modifier... distance beyond the range of your light should be treated as infinite. Unless he's hearing or smelling the source of the trap.
Now, seeing the burn mark of the floor from other times it's gone on is a different matter.
In any case, agree that a successful disarm roll could be interpreted as the GM telling the rogue the mechanics of the trap in a plain fashion that obviously suggest means to bypass.
How do modern thieves spot the edges of laser beam alarms? They are invisible, but there are clues. Note that “arcane eye” is MAGIC thus it can’t really make sense to us. Like you said- maybe the burn mark on the floor. The scent of magic fire. It’s magic. In any case, a high enough perception roll will detect something out of place.
But we agree- a successful disarm roll will show the rogue a way to get around the trap.
Rogue has evasion.
Give him all the healing potions.
Cast silent image.
Image isn't destroyed by fireball.
Rogue waits for first fireball, then runs across room to door, and starts working.
Each round, the eye at the least has to randomly pick between two targets. That's the equivalent of 50% miss chance for the rogue, before evasion.
Or just leave the dungeon if you don't want to bypass the trap.
I agree, plenty of people have given you plenty of ways to get around it. You're just wanting to do it without expending resources. Guess what? Resources are just that, resources.
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I fail to see how Silent Image will work. Who says the trap has to fire at it if there are other people in the room? If the other people are all bunched up who's to say it isn't programmed to fire at groups over individuals if two options are presented.A single silent image spell is not too much to ask. Or a single darkness spell. Or a single invisibility for the rogue to cross and figure out how the door operates/traps thereon.
You don't make a silent image of people, you make a silent image of the floor, but about 7-8 feet higher than the real floor. Now the eye only sees floor and doesn't fire when you enter.
Silent image of a wall. Or a false ceiling. You obscure the ENTIRE AREA from the eye.
Too big an area to cover, the room is 125 feet wide if I read correctly.
However, the image of 5 people in one corner of the room, so the eye fires at it constantly, while the rogue picks the door lock. That's 1/6th chance of the rogue being targeted.
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However, if you put the silent image right above the ceiling, you obscure the eye. The eye gets a will save (maybe). If it fails, then it thinks that's a real wall and doesn't worry about intruders anymore.
The range of silent image is 400 feet+, so no issue putting it right up there, blocking the spot where fire is coming out.
I don't think arcane sees around corners. Just cast the illusion over part of the floor in ratio above the parties' heads and place it to interrupt field of view after you've located the source. If the room is 125 feet wide it should take you what three or four rocks to catch the angle. You might not know where specifically the trap is, but you'll know its in the north east corner.
So hey first thing first find out the trap parameters.
Fair enough, but you could still simply cap the eye with the illusion.
That you could do, if you find it. Doesn't have to be within the 60 feet of detect magic though, and an arcane eye is a pretty small target at 90 feet or so to find. It doesn't have to be where the fireball originates afterall. Also, nothing says there's not 3-4 eyes.
I do not see the unfair aspect of this trap. Just use the resources you need to use, and get on with it. The only "unfair" aspect of this, if even, is that you do not want to use any resources to overcome an encounter with an option that isn't "run away!".
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On the other hand, you could create a 10x10 image of a block of stone, and if the eye doesn't attack it, move it across the floor with the rogue as he walks to the door.
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Fair enough, but you could still simply cap the eye with the illusion.That you could do, if you find it. Doesn't have to be within the 60 feet of detect magic though, and an arcane eye is a pretty small target at 90 feet or so to find. It doesn't have to be where the fireball originates afterall. Also, nothing says there's not 3-4 eyes.
It's still worth trying. At the very least, you learn a lot more about how the trap operates. Have a conspicuous ball fly about the room, and observe how the trap operates. If a ball the color of the rock does not set off the trap, then grow the ball into a large enough space to hide the whole party underneath and cross that way. If it does, see if there's some place where the behavior of the trap changes.
What if none of this works? Then you've used a first-level spell, and learned a lot about what doesn't work. Either way, progress.
Great trap. Given the ways to get around it at that level, the CR might even be a touch high.
How do modern thieves spot the edges of laser beam alarms?
That's not a very good parallel since a) lasers aren't completely invisible except in a vacuum and are EASILY visible w/ some mist/dust b) a laser beam alarm has a physical device at either end that has to be LOS to the spot where the "PC" is looking to cross.
If the laser were ACTUALLY invisible and worked w/ an emitter on just one ends, out of sight, then a modern thief couldn't spot the edge of it.
It's a horrible parallel.
The correct parallel would be : CC Video camera with a lens as big around as a human eye sunk into a wall 90 to 150 feet away, with a motion tracking software built into it. That's what they're looking for, and how does a modern day thief detect that? He tries to get to the building plans, or an inside helper, or he spends hours with a telescopic sight looking for the camera.
The cavern chamber is very large and the door on the far side is locked in addition to being a huge rolling disk that will take us several attempts (or taking 20) to move.Depending on how long the combination of crossing the chamber, checking the door for extra traps, picking the lock and moving the door will take, the "soak up some damage" or "weaken the party" aspect may not be a reasonable option.
Searching the door for more traps and picking its lock without light or Darkvision is probably going to be prohibitively hard too, so crossing the room under the cover of darkness might have to wait for a spell refresh at least.
How long does the party have to "do" this dungeon? Is the adventure pressed for time, or is it just a static location you could come back to without expecting the residents to go "Tucker's Kobolds" on you when you return?
You are correct , but playing that way IMHO is "dumb"...I understand that all sorts of people play the game all sorts of ways, but I never felt right about making it a numbers game. This is a challenge because it draws the players in to the game and come up with a creative way.
Correct me if I'm wrong, as I've never made a trap before, but I tried to recreate this trap based off what was told here. I'm using this thread kind of as a learning experience, and want to run my calculations by the people that have more experience than I do with crafting traps.
I'm going to take a few liberties, and some assumptions, but even if I'm wrong where I'm taking liberties, I should only be off the true CR by a 1 point at most.
The Perception and Disable Device DC for Magical Traps is equal to 25 + the highest spell level used. Since we know from OOC that it has Arcane Eye as a visual trigger, which is a 4th level spell, the Perception and Disable Device DC is 29. The table Table: CR Modifiers for Mechanical Traps, states that for a Perception of 26-29, it has a +2 modifier to it's DC. Disable Device modifier has the same range. However, the OP says there is a +9 Perception check modifier to the trap because the trigger is so far away. This, puts the Perception DC over 30 which is a +3 modifier instead of +2. So in total, we have a trap with a Perception DC of 38 and a Disable DC of 29 and a total +5 CR modifier.
As a little back up for my argument of increasing the Perception, Designing an Encounter says that if there is Unfavorable Terrain for the PCs, consider increasing the CR by 1, which I think applies to the Perception.
Now, I'll take a little liberty here and set the Fireball at CL 8th for 8d6 points of damage. Because it deals hit point damage, you calculate the average damage, and round to the nearest multiple of 10. For every 10 points of damage, the CR increases by 1 point. 3*8=24 or 20 for a CR adjustment of +2. Furthermore, if a trap affects multiple targets, then we multiple the CR adjustment by 2, for a total of +4.
However, magic traps only apply either the Average Damage adjustment, or the highest level spell adjustment, whichever is higher. As Arcane Eye was used in the creation, the adjustments are both +4. I included the Average Damage adjustment in case the Fireball is actually a CL 9 or 10, in which case the Average Damage adjustment would be +6 (average damage of 30 = +3*2 = +6).
Now, the Trap also has an automatic reset, which is a further CR adjustment of +1. In addition to the automatic reset, it has a visual trigger, for a further +1 adjustment. At this point, the Trap is 5 + 4 + 1 + 1 for a total CR of +11.
The final adjustment I can come up with is the reflex save. Arcane Eye was used in creation, therefore the creator had a minimum ability score of 14, as such, he has a +2 modifier on his spell DCs. Therefore, the reflex save for the Fireball is 15 (10 + level of the spell,3, + plus caster's ability modifier,2). A DC 15 reflex save is the threshold for a -1 adjustment and no adjustment. Therefore, the final CR for the trap is CR 10, which is one point off the GM's claim of CR 9. If the CL of the Fireball is 9 or 10, then the CR of the trap is 12, not 9, and therefore 3 points off the GM's claim.
I get the feeling that Xyr's party has an APL of 7 or 8, so a CR 10 trap would have a either a Hard or Epic level of difficulty. With that in mind, I could, possibly, view this trap as unfair. That all depends on the GM and how well he knows his party. In my game, this wouldn't be an unfair trap because the people that play casters are very experience and know many ways around visual triggers. However, against people who are fairly new to the game, or aren't drawing from 20+ years of experience, this could be an unfair trap and the GM should consider toning it down.
However, the OP says there is a +9 Perception check modifier to the trap because the trigger is so far away.
You make some excellent points, great post. I just want to comment upon this one part ” However, the OP says there is a +9 Perception check modifier to the trap because the trigger is so far away.”. My point is- the “trigger” can’t be far away and still have the party trigger it.
I strongly disagree with the assertion that this trap is unfair. Several ways of overcoming it have been suggested and there may be other approaches available to the characters, such as locating clues about how the trap's creator planned to pass by it. Without all the details available to the GM, it's hard to tell.
Although it may score out as a "difficult" or even "epic" challenge, the nature of the trap allows the party to retreat and assess ways to deal with it. If circumstances dropped the PCs in the trapped room with no quick escape or otherwise forced them to endure the trap's effects, then it would be unfair.
I'm still curious what the lighting condition is.
Since the GM obviously wants to burn your party resources as a tax for transpiring the dungeon here's what I'd do.
Step 1: Ask the DM it we can start throwing rocks, mundane items, bodies of the badguys we killed in the last few rooms back to see if we can get a rough estimate idea of where the fireball is coming from.
Step 2: Make quick glances out the door with liberal use of aid another. Ask the DM if our party wizard could identify the Arcane Eye aspect, (this is where you get deceptive) with a spellcraft/knowledge arcana or a simple wisdom check. So he might see if any of his magic would be useful in the situation. He seems to want you to expend your resources on this trap so that probably won't be an issue as you'd need an IC reason to know the way to expend your resources.
Step 3: Remove all sources of lighting in the room with the mage hand cantrip if they exist follow up with dimming or extinguishing your own source of illumination. Test to see if the trap works. If it does just expend the resources and move on, but note to the DM if the arcane eye is in fact 90ft away it would need the true seeing modification a level 6 wizards spell and thus the CR is wildly inappropriate for your APL.
I don't understand the reluctance to use spells. If this was a CR9 monster there would be little hesitation.
Either way you would use resources. You just don't want to.
My favorite solution: "Huh. We can't figure it out. We're leaving." Go back to the Desnans. Tell them the mission could not be completed in the time allotted. Return any payment already provided. If payment cannot be returned, don't go back to the Desnans or offer to go on another mission to repay the debt. Move on.
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This trap is so flagrantly illegal you wouldn't believe.....Tell your GM that if he want to cheat that blatantly you can find another GM.
The GM defines the world and the rules. By definition he or she cannot cheat unless it be via inconsistent rulings. It is the GM's world and they can design anything they want into it, and there is nothing unreasonable about this trap.
Frankly if I had a player behaving this way I would be happy to toss them out of the group. It is the GM's job to challenge the party. This trap is obviously beatable with multiple methods so it is clearly not unfair.
My point is- the “trigger” can’t be far away and still have the party trigger it.
Sure it can. This is not a physical trigger like a tripwire, it is triggered by vision and the distance is the maximum distance of vision in the eye spell. In modern terms it could be like a laser beam or motion detector: not requiring the party to touch it but simply be within range of the beam or sensor.
The GM defines the world and the rules. By definition he or she cannot cheat unless it be via inconsistent rulings. It is the GM's world and they can design anything they want into it, and there is nothing unreasonable about this trap.
Frankly if I had a player behaving this way I would be happy to toss them out of the group. It is the GM's job to challenge the party. This trap is obviously beatable with multiple methods so it is clearly not unfair.
My point is- the “trigger” can’t be far away and still have the party trigger it.Sure it can. This is not a physical trigger like a tripwire, it is triggered by vision and the distance is the maximum distance of vision in the eye spell. In modern terms it could be like a laser beam or motion detector: not requiring the party to touch it but simply be within range of the beam or sensor.
Take note that it was established that the trap was 90ft away and without adding trueseeing then the arcane eye at best it's got darkvision and can see 60ft away with no lighting effect present.
Establishing it's using a visual sensor and arcane eye and then further testing to see if it's triggered when lighting doesn't favor the trap is by far the simplest work around.
Otherwise the CR is greatly adjusted for trueseeing being added to the trap well above what's reasonable for APL, additionally invisibility wont work on a trap with trueseeing. The DM can do whatever he wants but defining what rules he decided to disregard is pertinent to the players playing the game. Playing a game with considerably higher CR then is APL appropriate or with a DM who makes up rules, disregards rules, and adjudicates house rules solely in his favor on a whim without making the effort to at least define them beforehand is legitimate cause for complaint. Not enough to leave a table or cause a large ruckus, but enough to apply appropriate levels of grumbling and or moaning.
Unfair? this is challenging, but hardly unfair. Unfair is telling the players they should be able to detect a trap that the Rogues hit a 38 with the check. Turned out the DC was 50! Because it was Divine magic!
The DM literally laughed about it because he read us like a book. We killed one to dead but the last one killed the cleric who was the last of us standing.
So, TPK? And the DM was laughing?
... was anyone else?
Really though, Xyr what was the lighting situation like?
As the trap stands it would've been completely ineffective without a source of light in the room. Baring ever-burning torches in the room affixed to the walls with chains it's a pretty passable trap.
The only real counter would be if the arcane eye had trueseeing in which case invisibility would be irrelevant to begin with. :/
Relevant quotes:
It was a magical Fireball trap on the ceiling of a 90ft tall natural cavern chamber
The rules:
In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded..........Areas of darkness include an unlit dungeon chamber, most caverns, and outside on a cloudy, moonless night.
.....All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail....
....If you want the trap to see in the dark, you must either choose the true seeing option or add darkvision to the trap as well. (Darkvision limits the trap's sight range in the dark to 60 feet.) If invisibility, disguises, or illusions can fool the spell being used, they can fool the visual trigger as well......
If you knew in character it was triggered by vision and thus planned to bypass it with invisibility it's not meta-gaming to inquire of the lighting condition and simply try and move through under cover of natural darkness instead and would've been worth a shot.
So the GM specifically designed an encounter, fully knowing you would expend the necessary magic to defeat the first encounter, only to no longer have the magic needed to defeat the following encounter? You've already mentioned your rate of movement was 20 ft or so right? Therefore, the trolls would have caught up with and ganged up on the slowest party members. Whether or not he intended you to use the Fireball in your favor, it was too far away for it to have been any use.
However, you've read this thread, you've seen several ideas that didn't rely on invisibility. Locating the Eye through trial and error would have allowed the Wizard to cast a spell blocking it's vision. A single invisibility would allow the rogue to get close enough to disarm the trap. Something that may not have been mentioned, is you could have used various bodies to leap frog across the chamber. If bodies weren't available, use items. Throw an item in, trigger the trap, move forward for 2 rounds, throw another item, trigger the trap, move forward, etc. After you pass the halfway, you make sure to throw the items behind you so those items are closer than you are.
At the same time, a general rule of thumb that I have is prepare Acid Splash. It is the single most powerful 0 level spell in the game. Acid Splash deals 1d3 points of damage, ranged touch, no save, no resistance, and it would prevent the trolls from regenerating.
Also, I've seen you mention a Rogue, a Cleric, and a Wizard. What else is in the party? If you don't have a fighter type, then the Trap IS unfair as it's way too high for your APL. Not only that, the Dwarven patrol, followed by the Priestess and the Trolls would have been a significantly unbalanced combination considering you don't have someone to go toe-to-toe with the trolls while the Priestess was being neutralized by the Wizard and Rogue.