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Mike said not to discuss what should or should not be changed in the other thread so I made a new one.
Someone requested that the ban on permanency be removed. I strongly disagree. I think you run into too many problems if that becomes the case. IIRC other living campaigns have banned it and it shouldn't be allowed in a living campaign.
Mike
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Based on a few other topics, I'd suggest some more guidance for GM's about issues with the "not at my table" syndrum and different rules at different tables.
Clarification on how the Mudules Masters of the Fallen Fortress and We Be Goblins DO NOT follow the normal rules in the guide, (this isn't mentioned anywhere could find, someone had to point it out to me).
Maybe include some special rules and allowances for Play By Post games, as well.
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I'd also suggest, sort of on an oppossing side, how much options do GM's have to get around "no win" issues games can cause. Notably issues where to succeed the players need to do a specific skill check, and either no one has the skill, (not uncommon do to PFS's tendency to play with random people), or when random chance causes a natural 1, for example.
Clarification one what a DM should do, in cases like this. On one hand, it is not fun to wither fail an adveture because you don't have certain class (ie Rogue/Bard) with you, but it is also bad if inexperienced DM's don't know how to handle throwing in new material, and where do you draw the line.
So clarification and guidance.
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I didn't suggest bringing permanency back into play. I *did* say that a lot of rules are being set up to try and avoid permanency and a few necromancy spells. The wording of all spells end at the end of scenario just starts to break down when you realize all the damage spells and healing spells in the game qualify as such. My question is, why not just ban permanency and the appropriate necromancy spells, and move on.
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I was thinking of starting a thread for a question I have, but since it's been discussed ad nauseum, I thought that I would put it here, since it was already tagged in the 4.2 thread.
It's essentially about how and when spells end when cast during an adventure.
I play a character who's used a particular weapon since the days of 3.5 and the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting. Now, since that weapon hasn't been updated anywhere, I am allowed to use it but cannot buy a new one. I've always feared something happening to it, and am careful about creatures that can damage it in any way, going so far as to fight barehanded on one occasion to avoid it being damaged.
I've always done this because it was explained to me that make whole or mend or what have you won't work by PFS rules because all permanent affects end after a module is over.
Today, in another thread:
Sundering is also not really [an issue], since even magic items destroyed by sunder can be repaired with make whole.
So ... my question is whether or not I can pay for my Osirion Khopesh (which is magically enchanted) to be mended or made whole if it's damaged.
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This is probably a pipe dream, but I would recommend going through the items in the clarification thread one by one and trying to incorporate as many of them as possible into the Guide, or at least providing a web address in the guide pointing to a list of additional rulings. I'm really not crazy about rules being passed down via oral tradition.
The next guide should include information about session types, such as home games, convention games etc.
I raise the question since online PFS sessions are still on the gray and though the Pathfinder Society Online Collective exists, it remains unpromoted and secluded. How are Play By Post games managed? Should they happen exclusively on Paizo's messageboards? How about online gaming? Contacts, recommended software? Is the GM then required to print out, sign, scan, and then send all the chronicle sheets to the participants? (hint hint digital chronicle sheets would be awesome)
Yes, you could contact your nearest regional coordinator, but I doubt even he/she would know about all the possibilities that exist.
I too would like clarification about running play-by-post games, as I am interested in doing so myself. I see a lot of APs being run PbP, but not as much PFS as I would like. Some clarifications in the guide could make this more popular, which could mean more money for Paizo (more people running scenarios could mean more people buying scenarios).
Director of Brand Strategy
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What specific clarifications would people like on online games? For the most part we've left it open so people can do it however works best for them, using the programs and forums they're already using. I fear that too much clarification will result in people who feel their method of online play isn't covered simply not playing.
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What specific clarifications would people like on online games? For the most part we've left it open so people can do it however works best for them, using the programs and forums they're already using. I fear that too much clarification will result in people who feel their method of online play isn't covered simply not playing.
one example would be how do deal with online games that go into Limbo.
Do characters get stuck? How do they pull themselves out of that limbo?
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Director of Brand Strategy
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my guess is that this was a rule 'because it's always been a rule' rather than for specific reasons.
When you guess this, you are incorrect. In fact, most times you make this assumption (which is often) the same is true. And whenever this line of reasoning about why something needs to be changed crops up, threads in which it appears cease to be productive.
[Edit] Further, if folks want to derail threads and argue what should and shouldn't be changed, please do it in a different thread. This one really needs to stay on topic so Mike and I have one clear list of clarifications we've made in the past or that need to be made on existing rules for when we update the guide.
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[Edit] Further, if folks want to derail threads and argue what should and shouldn't be changed, please do it in a different thread. This one really needs to stay on topic so Mike and I have one clear list of clarifications we've made in the past or that need to be made on existing rules for when we update the guide.
Mark this is the derail thread... Most likely the Subject should be modified to say that.. In fact some of the posts brought up here should be brought to the actual thread.
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my guess is that this was a rule 'because it's always been a rule' rather than for specific reasons.When you guess this, you are incorrect. In fact, most times you make this assumption (which is often) the same is true. And whenever this line of reasoning about why something needs to be changed crops up, threads in which it appears cease to be productive.
[Edit] Further, if folks want to derail threads and argue what should and shouldn't be changed, please do it in a different thread. This one really needs to stay on topic so Mike and I have one clear list of clarifications we've made in the past or that need to be made on existing rules for when we update the guide.
Mark, this was a spin off thread to discuss things so that Mike's thread would remain untouched. I don't think you want a tunnel effect of "thread to discuss the discussed changes". It would lead to exploding minds.
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I think the person that suggested that was thinking the where responding to another thread.
However, I agree, I think that the all aspects of the game should be reviewed and some things should change. I don't really see any reason why Permanency should be banned, especially for certainof the low level spells it can include (detect magic, read magic, etc. . .) I do see specific applications of it, certainly, but in a sense, the ability to make a spell permanent has always felt like (to me) an extra step of awesomeness of personalizing and developing your character, especially for a magic user. I like to make my divine casters either able to detect undead, evil, or magic permanently, and RP how they have developed a sort of god-sight for their devotion.
Anyway, I dont' see any reason that certain aspects of that spell are disallowed, especially as PF has made 0 level spell infinite, there isn't much difference in the end. In practically every way the spell works just like gear with the same limits of wealth by level.
Another one I really think needs looked at would be spells that create long lasting effects, (Planer ally, create undead, and spells like that). A major failure of organized play has always been thinks like this. These are part of the power level of classes, not to mention strong aspects that people might want to build aconcept around. Taking these away wholesale not only strips the class of some of its assumed power, but also gets rid of some desired fun elements without much good reason. Any arguement that it would ruin the setting to have an undead walk around town holds 0 (that is zero) weight when the Necromancer and the Undead Lord Archtype grant a permanent undead ally.
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I'll say it here as well i would ban Heirloom Weapon since to a newer player its almost a saddening option to pick it up and have a great Story moment about using Granddads old war-worn longsword only to learn that not only can it not be upgraded but also that if your not normally proficent your also not proficient in another one should you choose to continue with your method of fighting.
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I (and i think most people) would be fine if was back to any weapon and simply granted prof with that weapon.
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I'll say it here as well i would ban Heirloom Weapon since to a newer player its almost a saddening option to pick it up and have a great Story moment about using Granddads old war-worn longsword only to learn that not only can it not be upgraded but also that if your not normally proficent your also not proficient in another one should you choose to continue with your method of fighting.So could it be fixed?... again, power it down but then let it be upgrade able. Could you make it +1 to one maneuver or +1 trait bonus to damage on your first attack (maybe to powerful) or summons fish on command(definitely to powerful)...
I think confirmation that you can get a permanent masterwork transformation from spellcasting services (maybe with a listed price to make it look even more official) should cover it.
What specific clarifications would people like on online games? For the most part we've left it open so people can do it however works best for them, using the programs and forums they're already using. I fear that too much clarification will result in people who feel their method of online play isn't covered simply not playing.
Okay, right. Fair point. But my questions are even simpler than that and are of a logistics nature. I want to run a PFS game as a PbP. How do I handle the chronicle sheets? Do I need to send them to my players, have them fill them out, return them, and then I sign and send them back? Is there an honor system? Basically, I'd appreciate some structure, or at least guidance, for making the record tracking work. Conversely, what should I expect as a player in a PbP game in terms of chronicle sheets?
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Okay, right. Fair point. But my questions are even simpler than that and are of a logistics nature. I want to run a PFS game as a PbP. How do I handle the chronicle sheets? Do I need to send them to my players, have them fill them out, return them, and then I sign and send them back? Is there an honor system? Basically, I'd appreciate some structure, or at least guidance, for making the record tracking work. Conversely, what should I expect as a player in a PbP game in terms of chronicle sheets?
I don't think we need an official rule for disposition of the chronicle sheet. The end result should be that the chronicle is completed and signed by the GM. However you accomplish that should be fine. PFS is largely operating on the honor system anyway so I don't see an issue with PbP.
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I don't think we need an official rule for disposition of the chronicle sheet. The end result should be that the chronicle is completed and signed by the GM. However you accomplish that should be fine. PFS is largely operating on the honor system anyway so I don't see an issue with PbP.
In the past Scans of the chronicle sheet where not allowed, so If that is the case, then yes it does need to be clarified.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I would like a ruling on the question regarding how an aspect of module play works post 4.1.
It states that if you play a premade, you apply the credit to a new level 1 with the gold reduced to 1398. Does this mean that instead of falling into the 1-2 tier, which is less gold sometimes (like in from Shore to Sea which we played last week), you fall into some arbitrary "premade" tier where you get 1398 regardless? Even when it's more than a level 1 that played the exact same module would have gotten? Or more than a GM character would get for applying the game to his level 1 character? I may be reading it wrong, don't have my guide with me at the moment.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I don't think we need an official rule for disposition of the chronicle sheet. The end result should be that the chronicle is completed and signed by the GM. However you accomplish that should be fine. PFS is largely operating on the honor system anyway so I don't see an issue with PbP.In the past Scans of the chronicle sheet where not allowed, so If that is the case, then yes it does need to be clarified.
Where was this codified? And how can one tell the difference between a scan and a normal printout?
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In the past Scans of the chronicle sheet where not allowed, so If that is the case, then yes it does need to be clarified.Where was this codified? And how can one tell the difference between a scan and a normal printout?
Sounds to me like he meant a scan of the GM-signed sheet.. which of course is easily differentiated from an actual signed sheet.
Chot,
I do not know if it will change as tech gets even more common, but as I understand it, you have to keep the physical copies of all chronicle sheets earned by a character with that character sheet, otherwise the character cannot be played. I am pretty sure it is legal to scan and then print out a copy of a chronicle and keep that copy with your character, while the original chronicle is safely locked up somewhere.
As for that GM you are referring to, I am sure that the paper exists, as the GM is supposed to issue himself a physical chronicle sheet at the same time he hands them out to the players.
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I believe the GMs often do not issue and assign a physical chronicle sheet at the same time he hands them out to the other players, there are more than enough to ask on these boards.
What huh?...
GMs have copy of the scenarios themselves.. If they don't give it to themselves at a CON they can print it up later...
They also sign it themselves...
GMs are required just like players to have chronicle sheets for all their characters be it playing credit or GM credit.
I personally would not let a player play a character if he showed up with no chronicles for the character that had a few levels.
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Which is kind of an issue with Play By Posts. At best, we can scan a copy of everything and put it up as a picture in say Google Documents or ImageShack, but for people that will not be meeting face to face, when the end of a game is not known, (or the outcome to do it in advance), these can be an issue unique to online play.
As has been mentioned, what happens when a table loses people or keeps shifting? I'm in one game where we lost a major player early on to personal issues in real life. It left us with an empty seat, but still legal table. And I told the player I'd allow them back in if they could manage. So, what do I do if, say half way through, a new player joins in that slot, and compeletes the adventure? More so, what if a new player joins, and I lose 2 more (so that I only have one original player left). Or zero original players. How does that intereact with their characters ability to play that module/scenario? Particularly FOR credit and wealth, and if they only actually get to play for a tiny portion? It seems really cheap, short sighted, and absolutely against the point of organized play, (ie fun) to rob them of that oppertunity, especially if they are new to the game or don't really understand what it all means for their character, especially if it is not their fault in any way.
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I also think there should be some sort of GM rewards for PBP GM's. It is both more difficult, much more time consuming, and also less feasible to run PbP's than it is face-to-face, or even other styles of online gaming.
Some recognition for that would be pretty awesome, especially as I see more than a few posters on these forums who have and are running PFS games fairly consistantly. There is a record of it all, and they have to register it all just the same, so why not show them some love for their efforts, too?
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Another thing that sort of came up for me. Who does one report to?
In PbP, you typically play with people from all over the country, if not the globe.Which VC(s) does one go to, legally? I understand that most VC would very likely help regardless, but it could be pertinent for other issues, too.
If I have an issue with a player from <sector 1>, and I am from <Region 88>, who do I report too, for that character/player? Both? My VC?, Theirs? What about reporting the results for a party from all over, including out of US? Some (again, PbP specific) guidance would be nice, even if I already know the answer, it probably comes up for other people, too.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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You report the results on paizo.com, the same as you would from a home game, a convention, or a game run at your game store. You don't need to go through a VC to report a session.
Playing PbP has some risks regarding credit, given that the games tend to take a long time and often die halfway through an adventure. If that's not something you think you can handle, then I recommend playing over a real-time tabletop emulator to ensure the game goes off without any such problems.
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Playing PbP has some risks regarding credit, given that the games tend to take a long time and often die halfway through an adventure. If that's not something you think you can handle, then I recommend playing over a real-time tabletop emulator to ensure the game goes off without any such problems.
That's kind of irrelivant. Things happen, and it leaves the players in a tight spot. I'm not asking for myself, as much as something that I think should be addressed.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Playing PbP has some risks regarding credit, given that the games tend to take a long time and often die halfway through an adventure. If that's not something you think you can handle, then I recommend playing over a real-time tabletop emulator to ensure the game goes off without any such problems.That's kind of irrelivant. Things happen, and it leaves the players in a tight spot. I'm not asking for myself, as much as something that I think should be addressed.
We already have rules for when one gains XP for an incomplete scenario. I see no reason to make a different rule for PbP than any other venue.
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For a few reasons. Note, also I'm not saying change it so much as it deserves addressing, (which is the point of this thread, yes?) The ruels as written are intended for if the group either doesn't complete the adventure (usually because they ran out of time), and assume that the group of players are there from the begining and all "finish" together. Online play, is a different beast, and should be handled different.
To encourage online play rather than hamstring it.
Because online play tends to take a lot, a lot more of a commitment on everyones part.
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To be honest, I'd like to see it addressed too. As someone that's played in more than a few now-defunct PBPs (and am currently playing in what seem to be Let's Post Every Other Week Society PBPs, I'd like to see some sort of rules exist for other mediums that exist.
Ultimately its not up to me, though, so I'll shush and just say thanks for listening.
If a player showed up with a IPad with all his chronicles scanned in (signatures and all) would you let him play??I have no problem with that, would be a great thing to add to the FAQ though.
What Dragnmoon said. While the Guide covers having digital copies of the Additional Resources and a device to display them on as a way to show the character is legal, there is no provision yet to do the same for chronicles. So until that is added, strictly by the rules, that character would not be legal without paper copies.
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I also think there should be some sort of GM rewards for PBP GM's.
I don't understand why a PbP games should receive any more/less reward vs. other venues of play? While I agree that the average amount of prep for an online game is more than that for a face-to-face, it does not mean that it is always the case. If I spend 10 hours prepping maps, etc for a table game, why should a PbP GM get more credit for spending 10 hours prepping for that game? Should we reduce the reward for a GM who does not prepare at all and only spends 10 minutes, prior to running, to skim the material?
IMO, the amount of time spent to prep is largely up to the GM. I do not see keeping the rewards the same as failing to recognize the online GM's or diminishing their contribution.
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How familair with online gaming are you and Mark? It kind of sounds like you are saying "screw online gaming lets get on to something worth our time here" but then make statements that are completlely inaccurate.
Online gaming takes a lot more time to prep, often including making alliases and characters for the various common NPC's, finding ways to make your own maps, or link specific pictures. Online gaming also take many, many times the length as face to face, so while it's difficult for a convention PFS GM to say get and maintain their stars, it's now impossible for online GM's.
While your 10 hours of prep is valid for face to face, that's pretty insignificant for Online, who are needing to constantly prep and reprep material, because the attention span is completely different. The players didn't meet this NPC hald an hour ago, they met them 2 months ago, even if it's only been a few days in game.
Do you realize that online games, single scenario games at that, might actually be going on longer than your version of the rules is legal?
Anyway the impression I'm getting is that you don't actually want suggestions for what the topic says, so I'm going to leave it at that.
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Wow Beckett, I way I read your last post there, you come off incredibly passive aggressive. If you don't like the answer you're welcome to take your ball and go home, but letting us know that you feel ignored and unappreciated and that because of that you're going to take your ball and go home does not endear me towards your cause.
That said: here's how I see it:
The PFS rules say you can play however you want, (online, in a boat, on a train, in a house, at a store, in a convention, with jam etc).
The rules don't make any distinction between how you play.
Playing online generally takes a lot longer to finish an adventure than playing face to face and have a very high abandonment rate.
Obviously you find the current rules insufficient for properly encouraging/supporting online play.
Are there any changes to the rules, that you feel would help support online play without creating exceptions for the type of venue? (As it seems they do not want to create venue specific rules, so playing online or at a convention, or at a store or in a house all follow the same rules.)
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No where did I say screw the online community and as a matter of fact, I have, and continue to participate in PbP and VTT. I appreciate the time spent coordinating online games, just as I appreciate the huge amounts of time people spend organizing conventions, often in lieu of GM'ing. I don't get GM credit for organizing a convention of 50+ tables and spending hundreds of dollars of my own money to make sure it runs well. It doesn't entitle me to any more reward than any other player/GM in the community.
I see the inherent challenges in the star program if you exclusively run online games, but, and this might be harsh, that is your choice. I'm glad you do it and hope you continue. I just don't support the rewards program to be weighted based on some undetermined amount of time investment. If Mike/Mark change the rules to meet your request, as a VC, I would support it, but I would be disappointed. Consistency is important in OP. Intentionally having more than one set of rules will marginalize someone. It just depends on who the "someone" is. YMMV
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I didn't mean it as passive aggressive at all. I was more saying I think I might be making suggestions in the wrong place or that maybe I'm trying to suggest this too much.
I'm not going to say that I think that people are asking for suggestions and then ignoring what they get like it's not what they wanted in the first place, but oh well. I'm not mad, and I didn't mean for it to come off that way.
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No where did I say screw the online community and as a matter of fact, I have, and continue to participate in PbP and VTT.
I said that was the impression I'm sort of getting on the subject, so was planning on dropping it. Obviously, this is not an area of to much interest for the 4.2 guide, which is fine.