Suicidal enemies? Spoilers

[Liam Warner]

I've been reading this path with a view to running it and I'm really getting the feeling that there's a strong suicidal streak in some of the enemies. Consider the following two examples . . .

Zaiobe: Cuts a deal with the PC's to help kill her former lover in revenge and then turns on them to steal their pretties and presumably gets killed for it. Thing is the PC's are probably going to have roughly equivilent power to what she has and there could be 4 or 5 of them to just her and she's presumably just been badly hurt since she was in the frontlines of the betrayal.

or consider the case of Goti

Assuming he managed to escape and the PC's took out his mistress he's just lost a huge amount of invested resources zombies, hellwasps, possibly his familiar/friend, been defeated by the party and had the more powerful being he served killed. Instead of either trying to cut a deal to retain influence in Karlsbad say by assisting someone the PC's can put in a good word with or just withdrawing to his mothers hideout and slowly rebuilding his forces the path suggests having him chase after the PC's and try to attack them in order to help carry out his old masters task.

Now yes these guy's are evil but seriously the decision making seems designed to get themselves killed. I already know how I'd be running things differently in my game but I'm just wondering if other people have gotten a feeling that a lot of the beings in this path have a death wish?

[Fox1212]

Yep, definitely, they have a death wish, but it's a necessity if you do not want to leave behind a wave of recurring enemies of a level increasingly lower than that of the PCs. It's easier to assume that the BBG keeps on attacking the PCs until he's finally defeated than to force the gamemaster to keep track of possible enemies left behind.

It's a trope of the genre that the evil guys are ready to die rather than stay and complicate things for the gamemaster ;-)

[Ice Titan]

The monsters have to catch the PCs so the PCs can kill them and take their treasure, keeping them in line for XP and gold.

Just the facts.

[wspatterson]

In my game the party helped out the harpy, killed all the low level minions, then the oni & ogre. At that point I had the harpy run off to plan her double cross.
While the party spent hours in the dungeon, the harpy gathered together the dire corby cleric, ogrekin ranger, quickling & the mobat to wait in ambush.
No, I don't think any of the trust the others, nor do they want to work together long-term. They're also not suicidal and unwilling to set aside differences temporarily to take out an obviously well-armed & very dangerous invading force.
Next session promises to start out with a bang.

[Asurasan]

Haha,

Here I was expecting a seppuku thread! :)

Seriously though, I think you are making the right choice for your group. In my experience, nothing is quite as of setting to your players who are used to NPC's fighting to the death to have one of them suddenly up and surrender and try to bargain for their life.

I feel like a lot of the time the NPC's are written that way just to make it easier on the 'pick up and run' type GM.

[Liam Warner]

Maybe it just feels like the computer game style oponent where they set the building on fire and then decide that rather than try to get out before it comes down on their head they'll impress the boss by trying to kill your character. I mean really one or two maybe but you usually get a dozen or so low level mook enemies as a "challenge" in an environment where any sane being would make for the nearest exit.

I'm happy to award the same XP for a non-combat approach as I do for a combat one. In my game if he and his raven survive Goti's going to approach the most "honorouble" looking PC and tell them

"You cost me everything I spent 20 years building up to protect my mother. I hate you but I'm not about to risk my life and leave her alone. If you put in a good word with the Linnorn king or some other high ranking figure I can serve in exchange for the influence and power I need to keep her safe I have information that will be valuable to you. I know every money making scheme she had in play, every noble who was on her payroll, every secret she held over their heads and I'll pass them on to the Linnorn king in exchange for amnesty and position. I even know some secrets about her true masters I'll tell you in exchange for this."

Should they take him up on the deal he'll give them some minor secrets to help them out. Things like . . .

1) She was the highest ranked agent still loyal to them if you move quickly you can be in Minkai before they get someone else out here to oppose you.

2) They've started a grab for power in Minkai but your companions survival threatens them somehow. Right now their overextended and vulnerable in a way they normally would never be as they plan for centuries but are now rushing to complete their actions on months. This might give you allies opposed to them where normally by the time people were aware of the threat it'd be too late to resist.

3) When you come down out of the north if its been less than X months stop at the village of Kurosaba it has a portal to a major city which hosts a tournament every 10 years. The next tournament begins then and if you win it you'll have an opportunity to claim a very powerful magic item from a wizards horde.

Of course he'll only tell them this information after they uphold their end of the deal.

[CaptainJandor]

And that's totally fine! It's really up to you as GM how you want to handle it. It also depends on the players; I know more than a few who will hunt down and kill/decapitate/burn/scatter the ashes of particularly nasty BBEGs, just to prevent them coming back. So often that will work itself out anyway :P

With regard to Zaiobe: nothing says she has to attack right away. If she gets them to trust her she can attack while they are resting or sleeping, or while everyone is searching the corpses ... if she just wants treasure and has the skills (don't have the stat block in front of me) she could pick pocket or steal from bags while the party is distracted, etc.

This sounds like a "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!" moment anyway, which can be fun :P

[ruemere]

Heheh. What a great thread.

I've had a similar problem until I have an epiphany of sorts. Why try to beat them (and die horribly), when you can join them? The life of GM got simpler, while players had to embrace the world with shades of grey.

Example:
An Annis Hag Druid of orcish origin, a god mother of her semi-settled almost civilized tribe, who struck a deal with a devil (i.e. the PCs) to save her tribe from a plague... though the image of a hag telling a story how she used her enormous claws to dig frozen earth to bury children of her tribe might have had to something with players not bringing fire and sword to distinctly evil community.

Regards,
Ruemere