stuffRereading my posts, I don't think I've had enough caffeine this morning. I'm sorry, I was pretty rude.Lol it's alright. We all end up there sooner or later. To be fair I was under the impression they faq'd the Extra Evolutions feat to work with the synthesist (shows what i know XD). My apologies if i was a bit trite on my end. No hard feelings, right?
Alright, now to the duel! How I would play this out would be to go Zen Archer. It's a fun class that i've been looking at for a long time and i personally wouldn't enjoy going against a kid with a fully optimized character (personal taste). It you were going against a munchkin it'd be different, but from all appearances you're not.
Now how to play the Monk: I would be passive aggressive. Simply ready an action to stop spellcasting if he tries to cast wind-wall and shoot him if he does. Eventually he'll get the idea and either a) stop trying to cast spells (since you can lose spells this way last i checked) or b) run out of spells to cast.
If this fails, i would have an artifact of antimagic or a wand of dispel or something of the like, just in case he does get an arrow-nerf ability off. Afterwards you can grapple him (monk beats casty in grapples typically) and just slowly punch his senses back into him.
if he ends up playing a non-caster or something just utilize your superior movement and arrows to bring him down. If he's a charger get somewhere he can't charge. If he's AM BARBARIAN then I'd question the diabolic focus of the kid you're up against.
EDIT'd for relevance
Well, first of all, kid is relative. This kid is 17, he's been playing for 5+ years, and his dad is a DM that hosts 3-4 games a week. The kid plays in all of them.
That said, he's got a lot to learn. I've been playing for a little over a year and I know more about character creation, balance, battlefield control (though he's no newb, and knows more than many). I did warn him that I'd crush him and he said he doesn't care. I think he wants the learning experience. This isn't for money, after all.
Fair enough. Do you have any idea what you'll be fighting? What does your opponent typically like to use?
Damage dealers - thrower barbarians, rogues, universalist blaster wizard, archer ranger, sorcerer. Those are what I can think of. I wouldn't put it past him try a gunslinger, alchemist bomb chucker, or magus.
Probably add grab and constrict evolutions, then DimDoor in and grapple. Or just charge through it and cut him up with the agile rapier. Or get a grab and a pounce and then charge.
Stuff
Alright, in that case the synthesist/paladin might be useful. I just wouldn't use dimensional assault then. Try maxing stealth out so you can get close and then full attack. Alternatively you could just summon endless lantern archons and hide, then summon eidolon and finish him when he burns his rage/spells/bombs or just take advantage of tactics. I'd also prep some spell counters just in case.Tricky casters,never know what they'll do
StuffAlright, in that case the synthesist/paladin might be useful. I just wouldn't use dimensional assault then. Try maxing stealth out so you can get close and then full attack. Alternatively you could just summon endless lantern archons and hide, then summon eidolon and finish him when he burns his rage/spells/bombs or just take advantage of tactics. I'd also prep some spell counters just in case.Tricky casters,never know what they'll do
Why would I focus on Stealth when I've put so much into ranged attacks? It's not even a class skill.
Dimensional Assault - interesting. I may swap combat casting for that.
Do SLAs provoke AoO? Doesn't DimDoor specifically not provoke AoO?
StuffAlright, in that case the synthesist/paladin might be useful. I just wouldn't use dimensional assault then. Try maxing stealth out so you can get close and then full attack. Alternatively you could just summon endless lantern archons and hide, then summon eidolon and finish him when he burns his rage/spells/bombs or just take advantage of tactics. I'd also prep some spell counters just in case.Tricky casters,never know what they'll doWhy would I focus on Stealth when I've put so much into ranged attacks? It's not even a class skill.
Dimensional Assault - interesting. I may swap combat casting for that.
Do SLAs provoke AoO? Doesn't DimDoor specifically not provoke AoO?
Two words: skilled evolution. 1 evo point for +8 racial. Stacks with invisibility.
All spells provoke AoO. I assume spell-like abilities do so to. But it still can be done. You'd have to look for FAQ regarding this topic, my search-Fu is weak on iPod.
I don't know if Dimensional Assault is worth it, especially if you're trying to focus on ranged combat. Actually, how are you casting dimension door? I don't see it on your spell list.
Mergy has a point. The biggest issue with the synthesist will be that it grossly favors melee over ranged combat. Relying on range will cause you to forgo the natural attacks which is the big source of damage for these guys.
My question now would be how dedicated to ranged do you wish to be? Synthesist can pull it off but will essentially be a 3/4 bab archer. Zen archer, pure pally and others pull off ranged better..
I don't know if Dimensional Assault is worth it, especially if you're trying to focus on ranged combat. Actually, how are you casting dimension door? I don't see it on your spell list.
Synthesists get it as an SLA to replace Maker's Call and Transposition. At level 14, that's 2/day.
As has already been discussed, the Extra Evolution feat is right out.Actually, that's not nearly as clear cut as you make it sound thanks to the phrase:
In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner's normal eidolon abilitySince "qualifying for feats" would be a function of the summoner's normal eidolon ability.
However, its probably better to avoid tricky rules topics when you're in a friendly duel, especially against a kid, and especially when using something as powerful as the summoner.
But as to other possible builds:
When you don't know the alignment of your foe, pure paladin is too much a risk. Ranger (guide) would be a safe bet as an archer, as would zen archer or sohei monk. Fighter and Ranger are going to have to dedicate a lot of resources to getting a higher will save, which will essentially be a wash if the kid plays a martial character.
Synthesist isn't the best archer build, but honestly, its quite likely good enough. It suffers a bit from not being full bab, but level 14 is a pretty sweet spot, given that the build comes out with BAB +11, enough to gain that third attack, and enough stackable bonuses that the third attack will not be negligible. It won't be as good as a melee eidolon, but seriously, it is still an eidolon.
Yea i've lost hours of sleep debating if the Extra Evolution Feat is Synthesist legal or not XD. I figure i'd suggest it and leave it up to the referee in this case (it's legal in the games i play)
It looks pretty good. The saves are ridiculous, and the AC is pretty top notch. A few questions:
That agile rapier looks awfully expensive. Aren't agile weapons only 8k?
How are you going to summon a swarm of bats while in eidolon form?
Pure cheese, but could you make yourself old for -3 to gnome physical scores +2 to mental scores? Every buff to that charisma score helps!
I don't think Combat Casting is necessary for this; if you're worried about your touch AC Dodge would help more, and there's nothing wrong with Improved Initiative or Weapon Focus. There's also Deadly Aim, which would give you a lot more punch.
Looking at your AC, I can only get up to 39: +14 natural armour, +4 shield bonus, +11 from dexterity. Is there a +2 I'm forgetting to count?
Ah, I got it. You were probably leaving out the +2 base nat armor bonus that comes with an Eidelon's Base Form. So +16 Natural Armor.
Not that I want to spend the feat, but I don't really get why Extra Evolution wouldn't work. So what if Fused Eidelon "replaces" the Eidelon class feature? I still have an Eidelon, right? And that Eidelon is still subject to things that only affect Eidelons, right? Like, for example, Devolution.
Been thinking about ways to kill my character today. Maze probably wouldn't be too good, since it's pretty certain to keep her off the battlefield for at least two rounds. Maybe I could Alter Self into a Minotaur and RetCon it?
Actually, since it's on the Summoner list, that might be worth a scroll...
Well you can definitely afford to up your intelligence to circumvent maze a bit. Lower your out-of-eidolon dexterity a bit.
For a little old +1? Nah, can't do it. Not for one spell. I'd sooner sack a few HP for a higher UMD and get a scroll of Spell Immunity.
But, I'm probably not going to do any of that. Since it offers SR, I'm just not going to worry about it. The kid deserves a great big golf clap if he thinks to buy that scroll.
TBD. I was there last night and the kid was still working on his character. Also, his dad neglected to tell him about the 25 point buy; I assumed he rolled him up as per DM's usual method, which is best of 4d6, reroll ones. Probably not this week.
Yeah, Minotaur was a joke. Nevertheless, if she takes the large evolution and then casts Alter Self...
With all respect to Mr. E, I think its also fair to post any way to beat this build since he is using the internet to help.
What class setup other than paladin/summoner would reliably take this thing down using the duel rules? Everything I think of can't beat the saves reliably or close in quick enough.
Not sure I follow your logic. He's free to post his own page and seek advice, yes? And I won't spy on his page.
Anyway, finding holes in the build is what y'all are for. So far I can think of Maze and a penetratey/ persistent dismissal/ banishment. Maybe a hulked-up anti-caster barbarian with some winged boots or a flying carpet.
A Broodmaster would have access to 5th level spells, including Ethereal Jaunt. So he could start the battle with lots of things summoned to try and gobble me, and me with no way to damage insubstantial creatures.
Edge case maybe, but could a Tetori Monk be built with a high enough grapple check to pin you? 'Cause their inescapable grasp ability could cause you some trouble. (No escaping with freedom of movement or dimension door).
Edge case maybe, but could a Tetori Monk be built with a high enough grapple check to pin you? 'Cause their inescapable grasp ability could cause you some trouble. (No escaping with freedom of movement or dimension door).
See, this is why combat casting. Almost seems worth Still Spell, too, sin there's no rod for it.
Okay, so what evolutions can I cast once I see a Tetori monk coming at me with winged boots or a ring of jumping? Grab, for one; I don't think Constrict would help too much against a high level dedicated grappler. I could also grease myself for the bonus to Escape Artist checks. Or I could act like a wizard and Teleport away, buff, and come back ready for action. Possibly invisible, sans Eidelon, and summoning critters every round. Can't grapple more than one at a time, right?
Tonight the kid said he had trouble choosing between which of the 4 builds he was working on. I told him to go ahead and use them all, one at a time, in any order he chooses. If I defeat one of his guys I want one round between fights to heal and/or buff buff, and reposition.
Hmm. Maybe that should be d4+1 rounds, so that when one of his guys quits/dies/runs away, his new guy has that time to prepare.
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Getting a little cocky now, aren't you? :P
I'd go Still Spell over Combat Casting. It's unfortunate that a tetori at this level will have a dimensional anchor effect attached to his grapple. If you're really worried about it, replace Toughness with Defensive Combat Training and grab Still Spell for the still grease.
EDIT: It won't help you with combat manoeuvres, but I just remembered that you have the option to make your eidolon's form small. The stat changes go -4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, but you get the standard benefits of being small as well. Probably not a good idea, but it's another option for you.
Getting a little cocky now, aren't you? :P
I'd go Still Spell over Combat Casting. It's unfortunate that a tetori at this level will have a dimensional anchor effect attached to his grapple. If you're really worried about it, replace Toughness with Defensive Combat Training and grab Still Spell for the still grease.
EDIT: It won't help you with combat manoeuvres, but I just remembered that you have the option to make your eidolon's form small. The stat changes go -4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, but you get the standard benefits of being small as well. Probably not a good idea, but it's another option for you.
After as much prep as I've done, I'd hate to end our duel in one swift stroke. He seems kind of intimidated, too, so I figure why not give him the benefit of a handicap. Besides, that frees me up to really maximize.
Found a pretty good mini tonight. I'd prefer a Bow and Arrow, but I think I can whittle that scimitar down into a rapier and maybe paint some shiny armor plating onto her.
Also, multiple foes makes me want to take dimensional full-attack mightcrawler build even more. Maybe I will take DimDoor as a spell after all.
The drawing board calls...
Small nerfs weapon damage. Can't do it.
And on second thought, there's not enough put into her melee to justify a nightcrawler feat tree.
Does Toughness provide a Synthetic Eidelon w/bonus HP? Seems only fair, since Eidelon can't take feats of her own.
Actually, Maze shouldn't be an issue, since it's blocked by Freedom of Movement.
Just quick questions:
1. How much do you want to min-max?
2. Are Monsters as PCs rules in effect?
Edit: Crap, core races
Okay...antagonize feat? Might come in handy if the enemy turns out to be a wizard or something. Then you can always have something like point blank master + other feats to threaten with your bow, so he has to come over (with an insane save, so basically automatic), hit you with his bare fist, eat lots of AoO, and be right next to you for your next shot.
Maze does not impede your movement, you can move as fast as you like. you just happen to be in another dimension while you do it.
That seems like a very generous reading of freedom of movement to counter an 8th level spell like maze. I would not be surprised if your referee rules in favor of maze working on you.Wizards are unable to cast 8th level spells until 15th level so he can't possibly have it prepared normally, somebody with a scroll of it is possible but that is what sunder is for.
He needs to get within 100 feet to cast it anyway, stay out of that zone and you've got no problem.
Somehow I goofed up Maze with Dimensional Anchor.
He needs to be within 60', yes? So my bow certainly helps, although the range of echolocation is only 40'. A clever wizard will be mind blanked, invisible, and silenced (so he'll need Silent Spell), and will wait for the Paladin Summoner to come within range of Maze. He needs two scrolls above his level, which is kind if pushing it but certainly within the scope of the rules, if he makes all his level checks.
Mind blank defeats see invisibility. Plus, my percep won't be tops and I have no idea what his stealth mod will be. Versus multiple characters I should expect at least one to be hard to find.
I can think of some more threats to my Summoner Paladin. Threats like:
A dedicated fighter archer
A Zen Archer (hoo boy)
A dedicated Bomber Alchemist (Touch AC!)
An Alchemist with numerous 7th Level Simulacra of him/herself - Touch AC for less damage but multiply it.
A properly built Gunslinger? (more touch AC?)
An Anti-Paladin (dunh dunh dunh!)
An eeevil Cleric - Even a Fused Eidelon counts as a summoned creature,
yes? So that means that I couldn't touch an evil cleric with Protection From Good up and running. Saving against Negative energy only prevents half, too. Say, does a negative energy channel hit both the Summoner and the Eidelon suit for double damage? With quickened Channel, that means a Synthesist might have to save for that damage twice in one round, taking at least half both times to both bodies. Not a bad tactic, actually, since by the Rules of Engagement I can't be Undead or a Dhampir.
A proper Switch Hitter Ranger
A 14th level Witch has access to spells like Feeblemind, Dust Form, Waves of Exhaustion (no save), Power Word Blind (no save), Ice Storm (no save), Walk Through Space (Dim Door as a Move action), and Eyebite (save, but can keep trying to sicken me every round), as well as the full Summon Monster spells all the way up to 7. Also has hexes with a DC that should be in the high 20's, including Misfortune. Also has access to an improved familiar, such as an Imp or a Quasit, that can use a wand to throw Magic Missiles at me every round. Also has access to Summoner Conduit to effectively double the damage against me, though that provides a save and she'd have to get through Spell Resistance.
An evil Inquisitor will be able to detect my alignment, effectively smite good with his judgements, Chaos Hammer, Dispel Good, Protection from Good.
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You can hurt things with protection from good up. That's in the summoner class abilities. A switch hitting ranger doesn't have a lot on you, and your saves are ridiculous.
The zen archer and fighter archer might be pretty scary, but you have endurance on them as you can heal yourself and they cannot. The gunslinger will have difficulty hitting your touch AC reliably as you'll have a range increment of 110 ft. and he'll have 40.
You're still one creature so you don't have to worry about saving twice versus channel energy.
Yea, it's always going to be like that. No class is completely invulnerable; it's a balancing factor that I appreciate in Pathfinder (although granted some classes have more weakness than others). I could reiterate my thoughts on playing a fun build but then i'd just sound like a broken record :P
also the Zen archer can heal himself using his Ki (see wholeness of body). it's irrelevant healing but it still is healing XD
As for the alchemist with simulacra: you yourself probably know of ways to combat that.
As a Synthesist? It'd be tough. I suppose I'd have to play Controller with some well-placed Wall spells to divide them up and then start picking them off one by one, flyers first. This might be where Dimensional Assault would come in handy, although I guess a magic Compound Longbow does the job fairly well.
Probably the best antidote is to be a blasting Sorcerer with a fair amount of area spells.
You can hurt things with protection from good up. That's in the summoner class abilities. A switch hitting ranger doesn't have a lot on you, and your saves are ridiculous.
The zen archer and fighter archer might be pretty scary, but you have endurance on them as you can heal yourself and they cannot. The gunslinger will have difficulty hitting your touch AC reliably as you'll have a range increment of 110 ft. and he'll have 40.
You're still one creature so you don't have to worry about saving twice versus channel energy.
I forgot about the Eidelon exception to Protection from ___.
Another way around the channel negative energy problem is Undead Appearance. Doesn't even take a high level spell, since it's only a two point evolution. But now I have to wonder how that reacts with Lay on Hands. I suppose technically the Summoner can be laying the hands within the Eidelon, without actually touching it. Anyway, now he's healing the Eidelon instead of hurting it; wouldn't 'lil Paladin be feeling the hurt at that point?
Refined the build a bit.
Jonah Sunstar
LG Female Paladin 2/Summoner 12
Str 5
Dex 9/13
Con 16/20
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 22/28
Fort 18/20
Ref 12/14
Will 20
170 HP
Feats:
1 Toughness
3 Weapon Finesse
5 Point Blank Shot
7 Rapid Shot
9 Manyshot
11 Dimensional Agility
13 Dimensional Assault
Spells
4 (5/day)- Wall of Stone, Dismissal, Greater Evolution Surge, Teleport
3 (6/day)- Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Dimensional Anchor, Dispel Magic
2 (7/day)- Summon Eidelon, Haste, Glitterdust, Resist Energy, Slow
1 (8/day)- Feather Fall, Grease, Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Protection from Chaos, Summon Minor Monster
Eidelon - Serpentine Form
Str 17
Dex 28/32
Con 14/18
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 22/28
AC: 41 (42 w/Haste, 46 w/Haste + Mage Armor)
Touch AC: 21/22 Hasted
Fort: 23
Reflex: 27 (Evasion)
Will: 24 (+4 vs Enchantments)
Initiative: +11
120HP
Evolutions:
Limbs (arms) 2
+6 Dex 6
+4 Natural Armor 2
23 Spell Resistance 4
Flight 2
Gear:
Headband of Charisma +6 (36k)
Ring of Freedom of Movement (40k)
Ring of Delayed Doom x3 (15k)
Necklace of Adaptation (9k)
Belt of Physical Might Dex/Con +4 (40k)
Magic Intelligent Seeking Compound Longbow +1 (+3 Strength), Echolocation 1/day (27.4k)
Agile Rapier +1 (8k)
Efficient Quiver (1.8k)
60 Arrows, Cold Iron (.06k)
10 Arrows, Adamantine (.6k)
Spell Component Pouch (.05k)
Stoneskin Components x 2 (.5k)
Scroll of Stoneskin x2 (1.5k)
Scroll of Greater Invisibility (.525k)
Scroll of Improved Life Conduit (.525k)
Handy Haversack (2k)
Hat of Disguise (1.8k)
Total: 184.17
Prep Rounds:
Round 1: Haste
Round 2: Stoneskin
Round 3: Improved life Conduit
Round 4: Greater Invisibility
Round 5: Mage Armor
Can't wait!