Point of interest -- he doesn't have 3 bonus skill points, he has a class skill bonus of +3.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Basically, you can choose one perform skill you have ranks in. From then on, you can use your skill bonus for that instead of your bonus for the associated skill.
Example: A bard takes Perform (Oratory) as his versatile performance skill at 2nd level. He has a charisma bonus of +3, plus 2 ranks in oratory, plus his 3 bonus skill points for it being a class skill, for a total of +8. He hasn't taken any ranks in diplomacy, leaving him with a +3 from his ability score alone. However, he can now replace his +3 with the +8 from Perform (oratory), and doesn't ever need to invest skill points in diplomacy to be effective at it.
I'll do you one better:
That same bard (with his +8 Perf:Oratory substituting for Diplo and Sense Motive) then takes a level of Unarmed Fighter and gains the Snake Style feat. This gives him a +2 to Sense Motive checks and allows him to spend an immediate action to roll Sense Motive and use the result as his AC against one attack.
Having fallen off a low balcony, Mr. Bard is prone (-4 AC against melee attacks). On his turn, he fights defensively to attack an enemy (+2 AC). The enemy then makes a melee attack against him, but it's across a corner, granting Mr. Bard a +4 cover bonus to AC. Mr. Bard responds to the attack with his Snake Style reaction, rolling Perform(oratory) in place of Sense Motive to determine his Armor Class.
What's the total bonus that he adds to his d20 roll? ;)
Technically right. A common house rule is to let the bard replace those skills.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
If im reading it right, 12+d20? So does that mean that bonus to Sense Motive doesn't do anything since the total is replaced by Oratory?
But wouldn't it be +8? After all, it's a Perform(oratory) roll. None of the additional modifiers (the bonus from Snake Style, the bonuses from cover and fighting defensively, or the penalty from being prone) are modifiers to Perform(oratory), so why should they be included?
On the one hand, it feels weird that your AC could (via Snake Style) completely ignore being prone, fighting defensively, having just charged, having cover, wearing a Ring of Protection, having the Dodge feat, being slowed, and the million other things that can modify AC.
It seems wrong that Snake Style can completely ignore your circumstances.
On the other hand, if you allow some modifiers to apply, then where do you draw the line? Do you include armor/shield bonuses? (And what if it's from mage armor or shield instead of from gear?) DEX bonus? Dodge bonuses? Magical deflection bonuses? Cover?
I've really wanted to make this character (takes "talk your way out of trouble" to a whole new level) for PFS, but I'd be worried about irritating GMs with decisions about how to do it. :P
Technically right. A common house rule is to let the bard replace those skills.
I'm not entirely convinced that, that wasn't the intent of the rules. Developers have already posted support of it.
James Jacobs said that, yes. But I do not recall JB, SKR, or SMR mentioning it.
Correct.
|
Be aware that you actually have to be able to make your Perform checks in order to do the skill substitution. I.e., if you can't talk/play/sing for some reason or another (i.e., in a zone of Silence, bound-and-gagged, necessary instrument disarmed, etc), then Virtuoso Performance won't work.
So, yeah: you might want to put at least one real point in those skills if you consider them important.
Be aware that you actually have to be able to make your Perform checks in order to do the skill substitution. I.e., if you can't talk/play/sing for some reason or another (i.e., in a zone of Silence, bound-and-gagged, necessary instrument disarmed, etc), then Virtuoso Performance won't work.
So, yeah: you might want to put at least one real point in those skills if you consider them important.
This is inaccurate. Citation
Q: Does Versatile Performance automatically allow a Bard to substitute his Performance skill rank in place of the related skill rank or does he have to actually 'perform' to get the increased value (assuming he jacks his performance skill up)? That is... does he actually need to sing, dance, string, wind, etc... . or just automatically substitute his Versatile Performance skill anytime?
A: The Bard does not need to "Perform" to get the listed bonus, as it is not stated as a requirement anywhere in Versatile Performance.
Q: Could Versatile Performance be used to fulfill prerequisites for feats or Prestige Classes?
A: Versatile Performance only allows someone to substitute the respective Perform check for the listed skills. It does not allow them to qualify for prerequisites unless they actually have ranks in the listed skills.
Q: If I have 0 ranks in Bluff, but 9 ranks in Perform Sing (which gives its ranks to both bluff and sense motive) would I have 12 effective ranks (the training bonus) or only 9?
A: It doesn't give it's ranks, you use the total bonus you have for Perform in place of the other two. If your bonus to Perform is +12 after all feats, bonuses, ranks, etc., then that is the bonus you would use on the two applicable skills.
Be aware that you actually have to be able to make your Perform checks in order to do the skill substitution. I.e., if you can't talk/play/sing for some reason or another (i.e., in a zone of Silence, bound-and-gagged, necessary instrument disarmed, etc), then Virtuoso Performance won't work.
So, yeah: you might want to put at least one real point in those skills if you consider them important.
This is incorrect. You do not need to do whatever it is the Perform skill is to get the bonus from it. It is completely ridiculous to imply that someone with Perform(Keyboard insturments) needs to lug around an organ or piano to let him use his skill bonus for that skill as a Diplomacy check. No where does the ability imply you must actually Perform to get the bonuses, as that is far too restricting for what is meant to be an ability that opens up the bard's skills.
Be aware that you actually have to be able to make your Perform checks in order to do the skill substitution. I.e., if you can't talk/play/sing for some reason or another (i.e., in a zone of Silence, bound-and-gagged, necessary instrument disarmed, etc), then Virtuoso Performance won't work.
So, yeah: you might want to put at least one real point in those skills if you consider them important.
Are you sure about that? RAW seems to state you can use the bonus in place of the bonus for those skills, full stop. No qualifiers. There doesn't seem to be any FAQ saying otherwise.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
[..]
What's the total bonus that he adds to his d20 roll? ;)
Similarly, does a bard using Perform in place of Acrobatics suffer armor check penalties or not?
You simply replace the ranks+ability mod from the actual skill, and use ranks+ability mod for the perform skill in it's place.
All situational modifiers to the act are applied normally.
They've even said that you don't get a bonus for using an instrument, or anything else that would improve your "performance" (like spells, etc). You are still doing "acrobatics" when you are making the check, so only modifiers to the "acrobatics" check are applied.
For example, if you have a -2 ACP and boots of springing (+5 to jump checks), you actually have a +3 modifier to your acrobatics check on that jump... which uses the ranks and ability modifier of your perform (dance) skill.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
You simply replace the ranks+ability mod from the actual skill, and use ranks+ability mod for the perform skill in it's place.
All situational modifiers to the act are applied normally.
According to what? The rules say "total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus". So right out of the gate you're wrong about at least one thing, as you've excluded the class skill bonus that's explicitly included in the text.
They've even said that you don't get a bonus for using an instrument, or anything else that would improve your "performance" (like spells, etc). You are still doing "acrobatics" when you are making the check, so only modifiers to the "acrobatics" check are applied.
Who? When? Citation, please.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sorry, I treat the class skill as part of the ranks still (old 3.5e habit). Yes, add class skill bonus.
Regarding the citation:
Okay, so just to be clear...
Verasatile Performance includes:
• Ability score: use Cha instead of the original score
• Ranks: use Perform ranks instead of rank in Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Acrobatics, etc.
• +3 because Perform is a class skill
• Bonuses: any random bonuses to Perform, like Skill FocusBut...
• Situational bonuses and penalties to the original skill still apply and get added to/subtracted from the Perform check, things like magic items, boons, pre-disposed favorable attitudes, etc.
How about things like traits (like "Fashionable" that grants +1 Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense Motive, or "Fiendish Presence" that grants +1 to Diplomacy and Sense Motive), Orcs' bonus to Intimidate, Rangers' favored enemy bonuses to Sense Motive, Ranger/Druids' bonus to Handle Animal their companions, spellcasters with viper familiars' bonus to Bluff, spellcasters with bat familiars' bonus to Fly, small characters' penalty to jumping with Acrobatics, armor check penalties to Acrobatics, etc. These all seem like things that would logically transfer to a Versatile Performance skill check. Would these all be considered "situational"?
I'm assuming masterwork instruments would not assist a Versatile Performance check as you are not actually performing, just using your performance skills in other areas of life.
Yup.
And yeah, the bonus granted by a masterwork tool or instrument would not assist a Versatile Performance check because you're using that tool to enhance an actual performance, not a substituted skill. I'd certainly allow trait bonuses to stack as well; I'd even be tempted to let bonuses from Skill focus or other feats stack.
Basically... I think of it as basically transplanting your ranks in the perform skill directly into the two other skills as "phantom" ranks that overlap with any ranks you currently have in those other skills. You take the higher of the two and go from there.
By no means an absolutely official venue (he's stated as such), however note that this was from a thread that had been flagged for FAQ, and received the response that "no reply required", as it did not need further clarification.
I'd say that's as official as you can get it, short of re-FAQ'ing this question again and hoping for a different answer.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Wow, nice find! Too bad it's so old that most people won't know of it or be able to find it. :P
If I make my Versatile Performance/Snake Style Use-Perform(oratory)-for-AC guy for PFS, I'll probably ask each GM before the game how he wants to run it, just to be safe.
Yeah, probably a good idea.
In that same thread, James also mentioned he was looking at adding a rule in the (then not-quite-released-yet) Advanced Player's Guide regarding allowing Bards to substitute skills they've dumped ranks into that are being subsumed by Versatile Performance.
Never happened though.. cut for space? Forgot? Maybe it'll show up in an Ultimate Skills book?
Myself (and the DMs I play with) agree and don't like the idea of a class ability having the potential of devaluing the character, and dislike rules that require planning from 1st level to avoid such devaluation (we say "screwed over" in our group vernacular).
We just say that once a skill is replaced by versatile performance, the ranks are redistributed towards something else. Those "instant ranks" are as reality inconsistent as gaining another +1 Int and gaining retroactive skillpoints.. we've justified the basic rule, we can justify the same way for a single class ability.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
We just say that once a skill is replaced by versatile performance, the ranks are redistributed towards something else. Those "instant ranks" are as reality inconsistent as gaining another +1 Int and gaining retroactive skillpoints.. we've justified the basic rule, we can justify the same way for a single class ability.
That seems reasonable; I don't like the situation either. In addition to what you said, I also don't like class features that punish games that start at 1st level (compared to those that start at 5th or whatever).