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James Jacobs wrote:
kageseishin wrote:
Ok that makes sense. This method is Replacing ranks only right? So you still add bonuses/feats to the original skill, and ignore anything that adds to the perform skill?
Correct.

Actually if using the House Rule do the phantom ranks apply to any prerequisites for skills/abilities/feats that require a certain skill rank to learn?


James Jacobs wrote:
kageseishin wrote:

Slightly confused at house rule, are the phantom ranks just adding to the original skill then?

And if getting VP in a perform skill I could take any spent points in the effected original skill and distribute them to other class skills? (within their limit)

Phantom ranks replace any ranks you put into the skill, allowing you to redistribute the ranks you used to have. For example, if you have 14 ranks in Fly, then take Versatile Performance (dance) at 14th level, you gain 14 phantom ranks in Fly and can re-distribute those 14 ranks among your other skills however you wish. You could even put them back in Fly, but they'd basically be wasted, since they'd overlap with the phantom ranks and don't stack.

Using this house rule, once you get Versatile Performance with a skill, you never have to spend ranks in that skill again, provided you instead spend ranks in that Perform skill.

(Basically... this house rule effectively grants you +2 bonus skill ranks per level whenever you gain Versatile Performance. Yes, that does effectively mean the bard ends up with the most skill ranks in the game. I don't have a problem with that.)

Ok that makes sense. This method is Replacing ranks only right? So you still add bonuses/feats to the original skill, and ignore anything that adds to the perform skill?


James Jacobs wrote:
kageseishin wrote:

Ok that's good info for item bonuses. What about class bonuses then, are they treated the same? For instance The Spy class that im considering has "Art of Deception (Ex): A master spy adds her class level to all Bluff, Disguise, and Sense Motive checks."

If im using Versatile Performance already in place of these skills is this completely useless?

It's only "completely useless" if you pick Versatile Performances that allow you to sub out for Bluff, Disguise, and Sense Motive. AKA: If you're building a Spy, you should focus your Perform ranks in the following, none of which affect Bluff, Disguise, or Sense Motive:

Dance
Keyboard instruments
Percussion
Wind Instruments

Or one of these, which still allow you to use Versatile Performance on a non bluff/disguise/sense motive skill:

Comedy
Oratory
String instruments

If you have a generous GM, he'll let you use your Spy bonuses on Perform, but that's not the Rules As Written.

EDIT: James' Preferred House Rule for Versatile Performance:
When you gain versatile performance, select a performance skill. You gain "phantom ranks" in the two classes that versatile performance skill references. The amount of phantom ranks you gain in both of those skills is equal to your ranks in that Versatile Performance's Perform skill. If you have actual skill ranks in a skill in which you gain phantom ranks, those actual skill ranks can immediately be redistributed among other skills, subject to normal limitations.

(This is more or less the text for my initial suggestion back in the day for Versatile Performance, but I believe the design team though it was too good or too confusing. In my defense, there's not a lot of people out there complaining that the bard is too powerful, and so a boost to its power is probably not gonna hurt anything. And using Phantom skill ranks means that if you spend ranks on, say, Acrobatics from 1st level, and then get Versatile Performance in Perform (dance) at 14th level, then you haven't...

Slightly confused at house rule, are the phantom ranks just adding to the original skill then?

And if getting VP in a perform skill I could take any spent points in the effected original skill and distribute them to other class skills? (within their limit)


Diego Rossi wrote:

The most recent comment by James on Versatile Performance in this thread (as far as my search-fu go):

James Jacobs wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

You stated that you use the Perform skill's total modifier (hereafter referred to as Perform X, or X) in place of the skill modifier of two or three other skills (hereafter referred to as Y Skills, or Y).

You've also clarified that Skill Focus in X will effect all of Y skills (possibly even allowing them to stack) and that magic items still grant their skill bonuses to the appropriate skills, regardless of the substitutions.

So...

Does that mean I can get a magic item to increase Perform X, thereby increasing all of my Y skills WHILE ALSO getting another magic item to increase one of the Y skills directly? What if both magic items grant the same types of bonus? Does it stack or overlap? Technically, they ARE going to different skills, and the total modifier from Perform X is carried over to Y skills via Versatile Performance without any apparent regard for how it became that number. What if it was a single magic item effecting both X and Y skills?

Take something like...say...a circlet of persuasion, for example. Would such a thing grant me a +6 bonus to all of my Charisma-based Y skills?

What about feats? Would Skill Focus in Perform X and Skill Y potentially grant me a +12 bonus to Skill Y? I know you've broached this, just want to be absolutely clear.

In short, is it possible to double up on Versatile Performance, and if so, what does and does not accomplish this?

I'm currently hammering out a fetchling cavalier 2/bard 3/battle herald 3/shadowdancer 10 character and I want to get his versatile performance ability done right, since it has a HUGE impact on several of his skills.

If you get a magic item to increase Perform, you increase your versatile performance skills. If you get an item to increase a skill directly, that does NOT increase your perform skill. In fact, only if that increase bonus bumps the actual skill modifier up above
...

Ok that's good info for item bonuses. What about class bonuses then, are they treated the same? For instance The Spy class that im considering has "Art of Deception (Ex): A master spy adds her class level to all Bluff, Disguise, and Sense Motive checks."

If im using Versatile Performance already in place of these skills is this completely useless?


Hello James.

I've been asking around various pathfinder groups for a solid agreement on how you calculate bonuses for the Bard's Versatile Performance skill.

Opinions vary on the matter from GM to GM. I'm really trying to understand it thoroughly so I can someday have a Bard/Spy without wasting skills or items on bonuses that won't work with Versatile Performance.

I had made a post a while back ago addressing some of these opinions but it got completely ignored. I'm not sure if I wrote it poorly or it was just bad luck.

Link to that page here: http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5dek?Does-Art-of-Deception-WhyHow#1

Someone gave me your name and said you would be the person to ask on the matter. I hope when you have some spare time you can help me out. Thanks.


Can anyone give me some feedback on this please? :(


I have discussed this with a number of GMs but there's been no consistency on the matter. So I bring it here in the hope there is a more Official ruling answer. I'm including a number of variables to see where and how they are applied/effected by these abilities. All skill descriptions are given at the bottom.

If you do not agree with any of the following examples please explain and give a skill stat example using the same calculations given below.

-The Debate- The core of the issue (from what I've been hearing) is how Versatile Performance is supposed to be used when handling skill Checks. These are the best examples I have been given thus far.

A: No, Art of Deception doesn't stack with Versatile Performance. You are using the skill "in place of its associated skill's bonus". Bonuses to that Perform will apply to VP, but any bonuses to the original skill do not. If you wish to use original bonuses you must use the skill normally.

B: Yes, Art of Deception does stack with Versatile Performance because you are using a bonus to to that skills "Check". When substituting you do not use any "check" bonuses of the Perform skill since you are not doing a perform check. VP is only using rank+mod+CS bonuses. Any bonus to the original "skill check" applies to the total.

C: Yes, Art of Deception does stack with Versatile Performance. VP says to use the "total Perform skill bonus", so you will apply any bonuses to the Perform skill. VP is using a alternate method to complete the same task (Ex: You are still Bluffing, but you utilize your Acting skills). Thus any bonus that applies to the original check roll is added to the total.

[Character Example] 8 Bard / 3 Spy (Total level = 11), Charisma 17 (+4) Modifier, Bluff: Rank 7, Disguise: Rank 7, Perform (Act): Rank 11, Perform (Oratory): Rank 11

Total Bluff: (19) = 7(ranks) + 4(Cha) + 3(Class Skill) + 2(Deceitful) + 3(Art of Deception)
Total Disguise: (19) = 7(ranks) + 4(Cha) + 3(Class Skill) + 2(Deceitful) + 3(Art of Deception)
Total Perform [Act]: (30) = 11(ranks) + 4(Cha) + 3(Class Skill) + 6(Skill Focus) + 4(Prodigy) + 2(Savant)

So if rolling a Disguise check:
Example A - Use VP (Total Act) -or- use Total Bluff: (30) -or- (19) / (29) Disguise Self spell, +2 with Disguise Kit
Example B - Use VP with Bluff Check modifiers only: 11(ranks Act) + 4(Cha) + 3(Class Skill) + 2(Deceitful) + 3(Art of Deception) = (23) / (33) Disguise Self spell, +2 with Disguise Kit
Example C - Use VP (Total Act) and Bluff Check modifiers: 30(Total Act) + 2(Deceitful) + 3(Art of Deception) = (35) / (45) Disguise Self spell, +2 with Disguise Kit

I personally lean toward B or C. I see no reason why the bard cannot benefit from bonuses to the original check. Any help on this is Greatly appreciated.

[Bard 2] Versatile Performance (Ex): At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute.

The type of Performance being used for this character is: Act (Bluff, Disguise)

[Spy 1] Art of Deception (Ex): A master spy adds her class level to all Bluff, Disguise, and Sense Motive checks.

[Feat] Deceitful: You are skilled at deceiving others, both with the spoken word and with physical disguises.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Bluff and Disguise skill checks. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.

[Feat] Skill Focus (Act): Choose a skill. You are particularly adept at that skill.
Benefit: You get a +3 bonus on all checks involving the chosen skill. If you have 10 or more ranks in that skill, this bonus increases to +6.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new skill.

[Feat] Prodigy (Act+Oratory): You are naturally skilled at arts, professions, and the acquisition of knowledge.
Benefit: Choose two Craft, Perform, or Profession skills in any combination (two Craft skills, a Craft skill and a Perform skill, and so on). You receive a +2 bonus on checks with these skills. If you have 10 or more ranks in any one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to two new skills.

[Social Trait] Savant (Kitharodian Academy): From a very young age, the ability to master performance types has come quite naturally to you.
Benefit: Chose a performance type. (Act) You gain a +2 trait bonus on all Perform checks made using that performance type. Perform is always a class skill for you.

[Item] Disguise Kit: The kit is the perfect tool for disguise and provides a +2 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. A disguise kit is exhausted after 10 uses.

[1st level Spell] Disguise Self: School illusion (glamer); Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1. Casting Time 1 standard action. Components V, S. Range personal. Target you. Duration 10 min./level (D)
You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype). Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person or gender.
The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check. A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.


Well that's pretty cool then, thanks. =)


I have 4 Perform skills, Act, Dance, Oratory, and Percussion. Does this trait make all Perform skills class skills or just the one I choose for the +2 bonus?

Social Trait - Savant(Kitharodian Academy): From a very young age, the ability to master performance types has come quite naturally to you. Choose a performance type. You gain a +2 trait bonus on all Perform checks made using that performance type. Perform is always a class skill for you.


Does Versatile Performance work with the Streetwise ability of a Street Performer?

Streetwise: A street performer gains a bonus equal to half his level on Bluff, Disguise, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand checks, Diplomacy or Intimidate checks made to influence crowds, and Diplomacy checks to gather information (minimum +1). This replaces bardic knowledge.


So then its a total Replacement and no bonuses to Bluff of any kind would be of benefit as long as I was using Acting via Versatile Performance?


As far as I can see Shadow Jump is instantaneous, since it's Not casted a shadow dancer can still use All his actions (like attacking and move) and afterward if hes positioned at a shadow, can jump from it and end his turn.

I may have missed something not mentioned here and please correct me if im wrong but.. Why do you need Dimensional Agility? Was your intent of having this ability ment to allow shadow jump to be used as a initiating move into combat?

That sounds cool and all but also a bit broken, it would allow a shadow dancer to jump, strike/move, then jump again. Imaging the game if both PCs and NPCs could do that...Definitely Not Intended.


So lets say I'm lvl 10, have Versatile Performance with totals of +15 Perform:Act, +3 Bluff, +3 Disguise, and +2 Sense Motive.

On next lvl up I take a different class that gives:
Art of Deception(Ex):adds her class level to all Bluff, Disguise, and Sense Motive checks.

Is Sense Motive the only gain then? Does it apply to my Act swap, or the original skills? Just trying to understand the math, didn't actually try building this.


If im reading it right, 12+d20? So does that mean that bonus to Sense Motive doesn't do anything since the total is replaced by Oratory?


Joined a open door Pathfinder group and want to roll a Bard but I don't understand how Versatile Performance is effecting the result amount for another skill. Is it a swap of the rank amount, misc bonus, or total? Can anyone simplify and/or give me a example of how it effects skills?

Text -
At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute.

The types of Perform and their associated skills are: Act (Bluff, Disguise), Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly), Keyboard Instruments (Diplomacy, Intimidate), Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive), Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate), Sing (Bluff, Sense Motive), String (Bluff, Diplomacy), and Wind (Diplomacy, Handle Animal).