James Jacobs wrote:
Ok that makes sense. This method is Replacing ranks only right? So you still add bonuses/feats to the original skill, and ignore anything that adds to the perform skill?
James Jacobs wrote:
Slightly confused at house rule, are the phantom ranks just adding to the original skill then? And if getting VP in a perform skill I could take any spent points in the effected original skill and distribute them to other class skills? (within their limit)
Diego Rossi wrote:
Ok that's good info for item bonuses. What about class bonuses then, are they treated the same? For instance The Spy class that im considering has "Art of Deception (Ex): A master spy adds her class level to all Bluff, Disguise, and Sense Motive checks." If im using Versatile Performance already in place of these skills is this completely useless?
Hello James. I've been asking around various pathfinder groups for a solid agreement on how you calculate bonuses for the Bard's Versatile Performance skill. Opinions vary on the matter from GM to GM. I'm really trying to understand it thoroughly so I can someday have a Bard/Spy without wasting skills or items on bonuses that won't work with Versatile Performance. I had made a post a while back ago addressing some of these opinions but it got completely ignored. I'm not sure if I wrote it poorly or it was just bad luck. Link to that page here: http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5dek?Does-Art-of-Deception-WhyHow#1 Someone gave me your name and said you would be the person to ask on the matter. I hope when you have some spare time you can help me out. Thanks.
I have discussed this with a number of GMs but there's been no consistency on the matter. So I bring it here in the hope there is a more Official ruling answer. I'm including a number of variables to see where and how they are applied/effected by these abilities. All skill descriptions are given at the bottom. If you do not agree with any of the following examples please explain and give a skill stat example using the same calculations given below. -The Debate- The core of the issue (from what I've been hearing) is how Versatile Performance is supposed to be used when handling skill Checks. These are the best examples I have been given thus far. A: No, Art of Deception doesn't stack with Versatile Performance. You are using the skill "in place of its associated skill's bonus". Bonuses to that Perform will apply to VP, but any bonuses to the original skill do not. If you wish to use original bonuses you must use the skill normally. B: Yes, Art of Deception does stack with Versatile Performance because you are using a bonus to to that skills "Check". When substituting you do not use any "check" bonuses of the Perform skill since you are not doing a perform check. VP is only using rank+mod+CS bonuses. Any bonus to the original "skill check" applies to the total. C: Yes, Art of Deception does stack with Versatile Performance. VP says to use the "total Perform skill bonus", so you will apply any bonuses to the Perform skill. VP is using a alternate method to complete the same task (Ex: You are still Bluffing, but you utilize your Acting skills). Thus any bonus that applies to the original check roll is added to the total. [Character Example] 8 Bard / 3 Spy (Total level = 11), Charisma 17 (+4) Modifier, Bluff: Rank 7, Disguise: Rank 7, Perform (Act): Rank 11, Perform (Oratory): Rank 11 Total Bluff: (19) = 7(ranks) + 4(Cha) + 3(Class Skill) + 2(Deceitful) + 3(Art of Deception)
So if rolling a Disguise check:
I personally lean toward B or C. I see no reason why the bard cannot benefit from bonuses to the original check. Any help on this is Greatly appreciated. [Bard 2] Versatile Performance (Ex): At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute. The type of Performance being used for this character is: Act (Bluff, Disguise) [Spy 1] Art of Deception (Ex): A master spy adds her class level to all Bluff, Disguise, and Sense Motive checks. [Feat] Deceitful: You are skilled at deceiving others, both with the spoken word and with physical disguises.
[Feat] Skill Focus (Act): Choose a skill. You are particularly adept at that skill.
[Feat] Prodigy (Act+Oratory): You are naturally skilled at arts, professions, and the acquisition of knowledge.
[Social Trait] Savant (Kitharodian Academy): From a very young age, the ability to master performance types has come quite naturally to you.
[Item] Disguise Kit: The kit is the perfect tool for disguise and provides a +2 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. A disguise kit is exhausted after 10 uses. [1st level Spell] Disguise Self: School illusion (glamer); Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1. Casting Time 1 standard action. Components V, S. Range personal. Target you. Duration 10 min./level (D)
I have 4 Perform skills, Act, Dance, Oratory, and Percussion. Does this trait make all Perform skills class skills or just the one I choose for the +2 bonus? Social Trait - Savant(Kitharodian Academy): From a very young age, the ability to master performance types has come quite naturally to you. Choose a performance type. You gain a +2 trait bonus on all Perform checks made using that performance type. Perform is always a class skill for you.
Does Versatile Performance work with the Streetwise ability of a Street Performer? Streetwise: A street performer gains a bonus equal to half his level on Bluff, Disguise, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand checks, Diplomacy or Intimidate checks made to influence crowds, and Diplomacy checks to gather information (minimum +1). This replaces bardic knowledge.
As far as I can see Shadow Jump is instantaneous, since it's Not casted a shadow dancer can still use All his actions (like attacking and move) and afterward if hes positioned at a shadow, can jump from it and end his turn. I may have missed something not mentioned here and please correct me if im wrong but.. Why do you need Dimensional Agility? Was your intent of having this ability ment to allow shadow jump to be used as a initiating move into combat? That sounds cool and all but also a bit broken, it would allow a shadow dancer to jump, strike/move, then jump again. Imaging the game if both PCs and NPCs could do that...Definitely Not Intended.
So lets say I'm lvl 10, have Versatile Performance with totals of +15 Perform:Act, +3 Bluff, +3 Disguise, and +2 Sense Motive. On next lvl up I take a different class that gives:
Is Sense Motive the only gain then? Does it apply to my Act swap, or the original skills? Just trying to understand the math, didn't actually try building this.
Joined a open door Pathfinder group and want to roll a Bard but I don't understand how Versatile Performance is effecting the result amount for another skill. Is it a swap of the rank amount, misc bonus, or total? Can anyone simplify and/or give me a example of how it effects skills? Text -
The types of Perform and their associated skills are: Act (Bluff, Disguise), Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly), Keyboard Instruments (Diplomacy, Intimidate), Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive), Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate), Sing (Bluff, Sense Motive), String (Bluff, Diplomacy), and Wind (Diplomacy, Handle Animal). |