Important information: Fighter 1/Magus 1 so BAB is +1; 18 STR (which provides a +4 bonus); wielding a +1 Keen Longsword (I would say “in the main hand” here but for reasons that follow I won’t).
So Spell-Combat, I get it. Character uses the Full-Attack action which is a full-round action wherein only a five foot step is allowed. Cast Shocking grasp, five foot step, make the touch attack (which provides a +3 if the opponent is wearing metal armor, wielding a metal weapon, or is made of metal themselves) at a -2. My math says (assuming the opponent has metal on them) the attack from Shocking Grasp is d20+6 (+4 STR bonus, +1 BAB, +3 SG bonus, -2 for Spell Combat = +6). Against a character’s Touch AC, that is pretty darn good. If I’m mistaken there let me know. Next, the Magus gets to still make a regular attack with the weapon in their main hand. This attack is also at a -2 (because Spell Combat confers temporary TWF bonuses just for this specific combination of actions). So by my math (+4 STR bonus, +1 BAB, +1 weapon bonus, -2 Spell Combat = +4) this attack is d20+4, but it is opposed by the enemy’s regular AC. So there is a, I’d say significantly, decreased chance of hitting with this attack.
That’s all fine and good, or at least I hope it is. If I’ve got something wonky there let me know.
NOW! Let’s level up the character to effective level 3 = Fighter 1/Magus 2 so BAB is now +2, 18 STR still provides the +4 bonus, wielding a +1 Keen longsword.
Spellstrike allows the character to make a free melee attack with their weapon in conjunction with any spell that has a range of Touch. First let’s look at it without Spell Combat involved. Character casts Shocking Grasp, and as the FAQ so clearly points out he can then move into melee range of an enemy and make that free melee attack with his weapon. In this scenario our character’s attack is at a +10! If the enemy character has metal armor, or wields a metal weapon (or is made of metal themselves). In addition the Shocking Grasp would also multiply x2 on a successful critical (which is more likely because of the Keen longsword). That’s awesome, and I will tell you that some of the players at my table have mumbled the letters OP (meaning overpowered) but that’s an entirely different discussion.
Here’s where my first question comes in. The character has the longsword in their main hand when they cast the spell; they must because the FAQ clearly shows that (emphasis mine) “the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as ‘touching anything or anyone.’” So does this mean that that free melee attack as part of Spellstrike is made wielding the weapon in both hands? If so there’s an additional +2 to the damage conferred because
If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
This extra damage would be multiplied into a critical hit. If, however, the weapon is only considered to be in the main hand, even though the Magus has now grasped it with both hands (which seems counterintuitive to real life, but I grasped a long time ago that mechanics don’t follow reality, it’s not their job to), then that +2 damage is not there. So which is it? Is that free Spellstrike attack a “main hand” attack or a “both hands” attack?
I’m going to assume for the purposes of argument that the free attack is made with both hands. Now let’s add in the madness of Spell Combat.
Our character uses a full-round action to make a Full Attack. He casts Shocking Grasp, makes a five foot step into melee range of an opponent and then uses Spellstrike to make that free attack through his +1 Keen longsword. If the opponent is wearing metal, etc. this attack would be made with d20+8 (BAB +2, STR +4, +1 weapon, +3 SG, -2 Spell combat = +8). But is it made as an attack using “both hands” or the “main hand?” Again, this doesn’t affect the “to hit” numbers, but it does affect the damage, especially on a critical hit. This scenario doesn’t end here though. The character continues their Full Attack, and because of Spell Combat gets to make another attack at their highest BAB with their held weapon (a +1 Keen longsword). That attack would be made with a d20+5 (BAB +2, STR +4, +1 weapon, -2 for Spell Combat = +5). Again, is this attack made with the weapon considered in “both hands” or the “main hand?” Does Spell Combat automatically confer the idea that one hand is busy with the spell, and the other is wielding the weapon? It certainly seems to, thus the Two Weapon Fighting penalties. But, does Spellstrike then counteract that assumption because it allows the Touch spell to be delivered via the “held” weapon? If it does, then both of those attacks are made with “both hands” and that extra +2 damage is included, in both.
That’s really the crux of my question. I’m sure many of you, if you took the time to read this all the way through, are saying: “Who cares? You’re talking about a possible swing of +4 damage (on a critical)? Why even worry about it?” To those of you let me say this. I get it. It’s not a major game-breaker, but, especially at character level 3, sometimes that 4 damage (especially since if the character crit on both attacks that extra 4 damage just turned to an extra 8 damage) could mean the difference between dropping an opponent or not. In addition, I just want to make sure I’m doing it right. Call it my obsessive compulsive need to know.
Spellstrike allows the character to make a free melee attack with their weapon in conjunction with any spell that has a range of Touch.
Spellstrike allows you to use your weapon instead of a touch, unarmed strike, or natural attack, in conjunction with any magus spell he casts with a range of touch.
Casting a touch spell grants you a free attack, spellstrike just lets you use your sword instead of your finger.
So does this mean that that free melee attack as part of Spellstrike is made wielding the weapon in both hands?
If he uses both hands, sure. Some DMs may rule that it takes more of an action to put your other hand back on the weapon. Others, including James Jacobs, say it's a free action to do so. Either way, if he uses both hands on the weapon, he gets 1.5xStr.
Our character uses a full-round action to make a Full Attack..... But is it made as an attack using “both hands” or the “main hand?”
Spell Combat: "To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free"
You cannot use both hands with Spell Combat. (Unless you have extra arms, which is a weird corner case that will probably need some house ruling no matter what)
Look at it this way: If you use Two-Weapon Fighting, it locks your hands into main and off. Normally you could alternate your iterative attacks between longsword and dagger, but if you use TWF to get the extra attack, ALL the iteratives must be with one, and off-hand attack(s) with the other. Spell Combat locks your iteratives to one hand, and your off-hand to the spell, even if that spell doesn't have an attack, or somatic components, or whatever.
This makes it seem as though Spellstrike cannot be used in unison with Spell Combat. I'd be inclined to disagree with you since the only stipulation to Spellstrike isIf you use Spell Combat, you can't wield your weapon two-handed. Period. You have to have one hand free for the entire full-round action that is Spell Combat.
If you're just using Spellstrike, you can use two hands to do extra damage.
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
I can certainly cast a spell with a range of "touch" while using Spell Combat, so that prerequisite has been met. As per the language I am then allowed to make a free attack with my "held" melee weapon and expend the touch spell through it. In my mind that very much means I am grasping the weapon in both hands and sending the spell through that "both hands" attack.
Edit:@Grick. I get that it says you must have one hand free, but at the beginning of the full round action the character did have both hands free. I read Spellstrike almost as an interrupt action that takes place any time a Magus casts a touch spell. Prereq 1)Magus (check); Prereq 2 cast a spell with the range of "touch" (check) make your touch attack through your weapon. Which, again, to me, means I just grabbed my weapon with both hands. Do I need to then adjudicate that the next attack, made as part of the full-round action, is made with that other hand "off" the weapon? It seems illogical.
Mike is right. Your interpretation is wrong.
You can use spell strike one or two handed. If you use it with spell combat (which is perfectly legal, as you say), you have to use it one handed.
Please explain to me how I send my spell through my weapon without touching it with the hand that cast the spell.
Edit: No, don't. I cast Shocking grasp with my left hand, both my hands then "charge up" with the spell. I send the spell through my main hand into the weapon, even though the off hand is the one that cast the spell. See, I knew the community would help me figure this out.
I get that it says you must have one hand free, but at the beginning of the full round action the character did have both hands free.
And at the end of the action, he can use his hand for whatever he likes. But during that action, his hand is busy with the spell, not wielding a weapon.
I read Spellstrike almost as an interrupt action that takes place any time a Magus casts a touch spell.
Spellstrike is not an action. It's just a different way of delivering a touch spell.
Which, again, to me, means I just grabbed my weapon with both hands.
Why would you think this? You cast a spell, then used your sword to hit someone. IF you've got both hands on the sword, then you used both hands in the attack. If you've only got one hand on the sword, you only used one hand in the attack.
Because Spell Combat does not allow you to use both hands, then the option to use both hands with Spellstrike is not available to you.
Please explain to me how I send my spell through my weapon without touching it with the hand that cast the spell.
Because the rules don't say anything about that, at all.
Once you've cast the spell, you can deliver it with a touch, with a natural weapon, or with an unarmed strike. A Magus can also use any weapon he is wielding. Nothing says anything about touching yourself to 'move' the charge into different places.
-edit- Up until the last FAQ, there was nothing saying that the 'charge' is held in any specific body part. It's just in you, and it gets delivered how you choose. Touch, bite, claw, whatever. In the FAQ Attack, SKR mentioned the charge being in your hand, which is problematic for casters who might otherwise deliver the spell with a bite, or tail slap, or wing buffet. Here's a post about it, if anyone would like to add FAQ requests.
Developer
|
Mike is right. Your interpretation is wrong.
You can use spell strike one or two handed. If you use it with spell combat (which is perfectly legal, as you say), you have to use it one handed.
Please explain to me how I send my spell through my weapon without touching it with the hand that cast the spell.
Edit: No, don't. I cast Shocking grasp with my left hand, both my hands then "charge up" with the spell. I send the spell through my main hand into the weapon, even though the off hand is the one that cast the spell. See, I knew the community would help me figure this out.
You don't need to "send the spell" to your weapon. It just goes there, because you are a magus and you are awesome!
I get that it says you must have one hand free, but at the beginning of the full round action the character did have both hands free.And at the end of the action, he can use his hand for whatever he likes. But during that action, his hand is busy with the spell, not wielding a weapon.
I read Spellstrike almost as an interrupt action that takes place any time a Magus casts a touch spell.Spellstrike is not an action. It's just a different way of delivering a touch spell.
Which, again, to me, means I just grabbed my weapon with both hands.Why would you think this? You cast a spell, then used your sword to hit someone. IF you've got both hands on the sword, then you used both hands in the attack. If you've only got one hand on the sword, you only used one hand in the attack.
Because Spell Combat does not allow you to use both hands, then the option to use both hands with Spellstrike is not available to you.
Yep got it in the edit above. Even though the off hand is casting the spell, my whole body is now the conduit for the shocking energy. I got hung up on the idea that the off-hand was the only thing on my body "charged up," so to speak. I get it now. Thanks.
Please explain to me how I send my spell through my weapon without touching it with the hand that cast the spell.Because the rules don't say anything about that, at all.
Once you've cast the spell, you can deliver it with a touch, with a natural weapon, or with an unarmed strike. A Magus can also use any weapon he is wielding. Nothing says anything about touching yourself to 'move' the charge into different places.
-edit- Up until the last FAQ, there was nothing saying that the 'charge' is held in any specific body part. It's just in you, and it gets delivered how you choose. Touch, bite, claw, whatever. In the FAQ Attack, SKR mentioned the charge being in your hand, which is problematic for casters who might otherwise deliver the spell with a bite, or tail slap, or wing buffet. Here's a post about it, if anyone would like to add FAQ requests.
I FAQd that Grick, and you know what, I'm thinking that's exactly where this whole scenario started bothering me. I read that FAQ and immediately got hung up on the "in his hand" part, thinking the charge for Shocking Grasp had to be manipulated by the hand that cast it. Kind of like dancing with the girl what brung you. To use an old turn of phrase. I can clearly see now, thanks to you guys, that the spell is invoked by the hand casting it, but then the whole body is holding the charge.
The rules for touch spells state:
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action.
----
Spell strike simply allows you to do this free action touch with a weapon.
----
Therefore I would think you could work it as follows:
1) Declare spell combat with longsword as your main weapon, other hand casts spell.
2) Make your regular attack with longsword with one handed damage.
3) Cast shocking grasp with other hand
4) Full round spell combat action is now over
5) Grip longsword with both hands as free action
6) Use the free action touch attack to deliver shocking grasp with your longsword at two-handed damage.
1) Declare spell combat with longsword as your main weapon, other hand casts spell.
...
4) Grip longsword with both hands as free action
So, despite Spell Combat stating you must have a hand free to use it, you're using it while not having a hand free.
Spell Combat is the whole full-round action. If you stop having a hand free, you can't continue the action, because you no longer qualify for Spell Combat.
1) Declare spell combat with longsword as your main weapon, other hand casts spell.
...
4) Grip longsword with both hands as free action
So, despite Spell Combat stating you must have a hand free to use it, you're using it while not having a hand free.
Spell Combat is the whole full-round action. If you stop having a hand free, you can't continue the action, because you no longer qualify for Spell Combat.
Sorry, I edited my last post while you were replying. But I think at step 4 you can say spell combat is over, and then deliver your free action touch attack "after."
But I think at step 4 you can say spell combat is over, and then deliver your free action touch attack "after."
Interesting loophole.
I think the intent is that it shouldn't work that way.
|
Developer
|
Sorry, I edited my last post while you were replying. But I think at step 4 you can say spell combat is over, and then deliver your free action touch attack "after."1) Declare spell combat with longsword as your main weapon, other hand casts spell.
...
4) Grip longsword with both hands as free action
So, despite Spell Combat stating you must have a hand free to use it, you're using it while not having a hand free.
Spell Combat is the whole full-round action. If you stop having a hand free, you can't continue the action, because you no longer qualify for Spell Combat.
That is incorrect. Spell Combat is a full-round action which includes all attacks you make on your turn, including the non-spell attacks and the free attack from the spell you cast.
All i see is that people are trying to over complicate spell strike hoping to eek out an extra point of damage or two.
so here are the plain cold hard facts.
Spellstrike says nothing about touching the weapon with the off hand and says nothing about additional damge other than weapon damage itself.
So if it helps to think of it as happening one of two ways (for those who need visual effects). Visualize this.
1. The spell upon completion travels threw your body to the other hand and up the sword to the point of impact.
2. you touch the sword with your off hand channeling the spell into the weapon, but having your fingures in such an odd configuration (sign language signs and such) that you are unable to put the full force of your arm behing the weapon (that is you can just touch it, your arm and hand are busy making rude jestures. Hehe a middlefinger touch to the bottom of your hilt.
For the record, and since I'm the OP. I totally see my scenario was affected by non-mechanical faulty reasoning, and a bad reading of the FAQ. The charge for Shocking Grasp is a whole body experience (not something held in the spell-casting off-hand), and Spell Combat requires that the off-hand is only ever used casting the spell for the entire full-round action. Whether or not you make the attack first, and cast the spell second you still don't get to make that free attack with both hands on the weapon. If you take both attacks they would be considered "main hand" attacks and both be subject to the -2 penalty for Spell Combat.
You could however, make the attack, cast Shocking grasp, and then hold the charge so that in the next round you grasp the weapon in both hands and get that extra damage. Which, in the above scenario, has the potential to eek out a possible extra 4 points of damage on a critical. Of course at that point you are forgoing the benefit of Spellstrike which would allow you to get that "extra" free attack as part of Spell Combat and the full-round action.
For a str based magus your better off just doing spell combate and spell strke one handed accept for the suprise round. So if you like, yes, use that one attack with two hands and a shocking grasp. If your trying to eek out extra damage where ever you can (I would) get a +1 spell storing rapier. Use your arcane pool or scabard or feat to give it keen edge and any other energy damage you can. That threat range of 15-20x2 will apply to the spell crit and keep you rolling d6's.
I use a +1 mithral spell storing rapier atm as a dex based magus.
I put "LvL 9" (+3) from arcane pool: Keen, flaming, and frost on my sword; storing vampiric touch. Thats 1d6+1 from the weapon + with an intisified shocking grasp 9d6(elec),+1d6(fire),+1d6(frost)+[first hit] 4d6(negative) for a total of 16d6+1 non crit or 25d6+2 crit on the first successful spellstrike. So you can see 2 points of damage is not so important in the end. However, if that was in the supprise round with your held charge with a str of 18 thats an extra 6 points of damage. That much damage if you don't kill the target out right or it has friends will make you way popular. Good thing 4d6 of that is added to you hp lol.
i have to add real fast that you wont get the extra str damage with a rapier. so you have to weigh the extra chance for crit vis the extra 6 pnts damage supprise round.
That is incorrect. Spell Combat is a full-round action which includes all attacks you make on your turn, including the non-spell attacks and the free attack from the spell you cast.
I would have to disagree that it encompasses all attacks for your turn. If you cast a quickened spell as a swift action, I'm pretty sure most GMs would allow you to make a spell strike attack with it at no penalty; even if your next action is to initiate spell combat (and potentially another spell strike).
I just think that by RAW, spell combat allows you to cast a spell and get all your iterative attacks with a one-handed weapon as a full round action. If the spell you cast during spell combat gives a free action touch attack (as stated in my rules quote above), you can use that free action anytime before the round is over (including after your full-round spell combat is over). Furthermore, Spell strike gives one the option to make an attack with a weapon to deliver the spell as this free action instead of the standard touch attack.
|
Developer
|
That is incorrect. Spell Combat is a full-round action which includes all attacks you make on your turn, including the non-spell attacks and the free attack from the spell you cast.I would have to disagree that it encompasses all attacks for your turn. If you cast a quickened spell as a swift action, I'm pretty sure most GMs would allow you to make a spell strike attack with it at no penalty; even if your next action is to initiate spell combat (and potentially another spell strike).
I just think that by RAW, spell combat allows you to cast a spell and get all your iterative attacks with a one-handed weapon as a full round action. If the spell you cast during spell combat gives a free action touch attack (as stated in my rules quote above), you can use that free action anytime before the round is over (including after your full-round spell combat is over). Furthermore, Spell strike gives one the option to make an attack with a weapon to deliver the spell as this free action instead of the standard touch attack.
You are fiddling with the wording and intent of the rules to try to eek out extra damage. The free attack from casting the spell is part of casting the spell, even if you wait to use the attack at the end of your turn. It's not "after spell combat" because the attack is part of casting the spell whenever you make the attack during your turn, and since the attack is part of the spell you used Spell Combat to cast, you still need a free hand. Sure, if you then cast a quickened spell it would not be part of your full-round action. But the free attack from your Spell Combat spell is definitely part of the full-round action, not a "separate" free action.
You are fiddling with the wording and intent of the rules to try to eek out extra damage. The free attack from casting the spell is part of casting the spell, even if you wait to use the attack at the end of your turn. It's not "after spell combat" because the attack is part of casting the spell whenever you make the attack during your turn, and since the attack is part of the spell you used Spell Combat to cast, you still need a free hand. Sure, if you then cast a quickened spell it would not be part of your full-round action. But the free attack from your Spell Combat spell is definitely part of the full-round action, not a "separate" free action.
It is definitely its own action.
From the prd:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action.
--------------------
The touch being it's own free action is what allows you to do things like cast a spell (standard action), move (move action), and finally make a touch attack with the spell (free action).
And with some feats the magus could be TWFing as well (say kicking with unarmed strikes) and with natural weapons using them as well in a full attack action.
I'm not sure how that would be legal... To get TWF attacks you need to be taking a full-attack action. Spell combat is a special full-round action (not a full-attack action), that allows you to get all your attacks with a single one-handed weapon in addition to casting a spell.
It's a free action that's directly tied to another action the casting of the spell that produced it. You want to cast it and move, that's fine, but by my books you forfeit the free action to for the touch or spellstrike attack and have to wait until next round to strike.
Taking your touch attack after the move is explicitly allowed by the PRD (and the entire basis of the recent faq entry regarding magus spellstrike and moving).
---------------------From the PRD:
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
------------------------
From the recent faq entry allowing a magus to cast, move, and spellstrike with a weapon.
http://paizo.com/products/btpy8k8r/faq?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Ultimate -Magic#v5748eaic9oym
Magus: Can a magus use spellstrike (page 10) to cast a touch spell, move, and make a melee attack with a weapon to deliver the touch spell, all in the same round?
Yes. Other than deploying the spell with a melee weapon attack instead of a melee touch attack, the magus spellstrike ability doesn’t change the normal rules for using touch spells in combat (Core Rulebook page 185). So, just like casting a touch spell, a magus could use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, take a move toward an enemy, then (as a free action) make a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell.
On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.
Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.
—Sean K Reynolds, 02/07/12 Back to Top
Lazar you may make the attack as free action at any point in the round.
The problem is that bigmac did not quote the entire rule section.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
In short the free touch is free for the entire round. Once that round is over the attack as a free action is gone. It would have said same casting, and not same round if the entire round did not apply.
|
Therefore I would think you could work it as follows:
1) Declare spell combat with longsword as your main weapon, other hand casts spell.
2) Make your regular attack with longsword with one handed damage.
3) Cast shocking grasp with other hand
4) Full round spell combat action is now over
5) Grip longsword with both hands as free action
6) Use the free action touch attack to deliver shocking grasp with your longsword at two-handed damage.
My understanding is that when your full round action is over your turn is over. Thus it's called a "Full Round Action" as opposed to "Most of the Round".
When the rules refer to a “full round”, they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
If you are doing something after the full round action it is in the next round (and no longer a free action.
Free actions are done while taking other actions.
Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally.