Who agrees?
Take a Staff of Power for example. A brand new, fully charged staff has 10 charges. Not only does this staff cost more than a +10 weapon, but it doesn't even allow enough charges to use each spell one time (you would need 14 charges for that).
I say let staves have 50 charges just like wands. Then, when you drop the big bucks for them, you don't feel like you got ripped off.
Who agrees?
Take a Staff of Power for example. A brand new, fully charged staff has 10 charges. Not only does this staff cost more than a +10 weapon, but it doesn't even allow enough charges to use each spell one time (you would need 14 charges for that).
I say let staves have 50 charges just like wands. Then, when you drop the big bucks for them, you don't feel like you got ripped off.
They MIGHT, and I stress Might, be worth it if they had 50 charges and were recharable. ALthough if they only have 10 charges and self recharged that'd be worth it too.
Some links to previous staff discussions.
Are staves worth having
Are Staves too expensive for what they do"
I would buy them if you could charge them with more than one point per day. As it stands, I don't think I would ever buy one. The GM would have to come up with a really good one for me to reconsider.
Staves should be a definitive item for wizards and druids at least. They are integral to the popular image of both archetypes. In PF they are not merely overpriced, they are of limited effectiveness and the recharging rules are ridiculously burdensome.
Staves should do for casters what weapons do for martial characters. Besides having rechargable spells which can be cast at the caster's DC, they should also boost save DCs and/or spell penetration.
Staves as currently designed are the last significant magic item that any caster of mine would even consider buying.
Though I do think staves are overpriced, I do not believe increasing their charges to 50 (or any other value) is the solution.
Also, may I direct you to this thread?
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I don't think that changing the price of the current staves will fix this, but rather have the staves auto charge. Another fix would be to create new staves with new rules in future books. Staves should be a definitive item for spell casters.
Suggestion number one, 4th edition does a pretty good job of making staves available at lower levels. One of the items if rather than a staff having a stored charge already in it can store a lower level spell and allow a caster to change up spells on the fly. Or make minor adjustments to effective caster level, DC to save, of add a metamagic effect.
Suggestion number two, another effect would be to change allow the caster to apply their bloodline, domain power, of school power to the staff for an effect.
--- Example
Segmental Capacity (staff property)
As a standard action a cast may spend 2 uses of a power to apply the effect to a radius 20ft spread from a range of (25 ft. + 5 ft. /2 caster level) Affects that require a melee or ranged touch attack will now require a ranged touch attack for each target. For an effect that grant an attack, like claws, an invisible force attacks each target and using a melee attack
Suggestion number three, since Staves are be a definitive item for spell casters. I've like to see staves to somethinig other than cast spells. If you are a caster then you can already cast spells and do you really need a staff to cast more spells. I'd like to see staves act like focuses to where you can cast through the stave to avoid arcane spell failure, or use 10 + your spellcraft or knowledge religion\aracna for spell dc of spells you already cast, ect.
I don't think Staves are at all overpriced compared to other consumable items (staves aren't exactly consumable because of their recarge ability, but I think they're closer to wands than items with charges per day). In fact, they're only slightly more expensive than wands. 800xlvxCL vs 750xlvxCL.
Compared to per day items, they cost about as much as items with 2-3 charges per day. Provided you have several days downtime for every 3-4 days spent adventuring(which, IMC we generally do), you'll likely get at least 2-3, if not more, uses per day with the added benefit of being able to use your caster level and main stat.
If, on the otherhand, you adventure non-stop for weeks at a time, I can see how the recharge mechanic would fail to satisfy.
I don't think Staves are at all overpriced compared to other consumable items (staves aren't exactly consumable because of their recarge ability, but I think they're closer to wands than items with charges per day). In fact, they're only slightly more expensive than wands. 800xlvxCL vs 750xlvxCL.
Compared to per day items, they cost about as much as items with 2-3 charges per day. Provided you have several days downtime for every 3-4 days spent adventuring(which, IMC we generally do), you'll likely get at least 2-3, if not more, uses per day with the added benefit of being able to use your caster level and main stat.
If, on the otherhand, you adventure non-stop for weeks at a time, I can see how the recharge mechanic would fail to satisfy.
It would usually take more than just a few days for my casters to recharge a staff while between campaign story points. They typically have some need to cast other high level spells for a few days at least. To recharge a staff would require being on a vacation in a highly secure facility so that high level spells can be dedicated to charging a staff. My casters aren't typically going to sacrifice their best divination or defensive or warding spells just to charge their staves.
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Here is an example of the cost being too high for what you need.
Staffs Fire 18,950, being that you has to spend at max half on total on one item you cannot afford this staff until level 9. This staff gives you 5 fireballs, but at level 9 you can already prepare 6 fireballs. Almost the same can be said for wall or fire, 3 from the staff or cast 3. And this is before adding the specialties or added spells from attributes. I see that instead of 6 fire balls you can now do 11 in one day, but how many times do you have to cast fire ball. For the cost it really seems like something unneeded.
For 1/2 the cost a person can get a metamagic rod and improve the spells that they are already casting.
=---= Note this is before the cast 11 in one day then spell the next day to recharge or cast yourself decision.
My biggest problem with staves is that by the time you can afford them, both in terms of gold and in terms of recharging them, they are of dubious value. When they would be most useful is precisely when they are the least practical.
Just give me staves that boost my spell DCs or improve spell penetration by using charges, and recharge at the same cost as the spells I am casting. Then they would at least be useful, even if I still couldn't afford one,
Didn't some 3.5 book have a version of staves that were a billion times better and more interesting? I think what they did was allow you to, on the fly, convert prepared spells or spell slots to the spells in the staff. So like, a staff of burning hands would let you spontaneously convert your spells to burning hands cast through it. There might have been some other catches, like a per-day limit, or you might have had to lose a higher-level spell or something. I can't remember what they're called - I want to say "magestaff", but that doesn't seem to get any good google hits. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
Runestaffs. They were a more refined version of what Pathfinder attempted to do with their staffs.
That's it! Thanks, RD!
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Yes runestaffs from the Magic Item Compendium, my be not the same thing but this allows for some lower level staffs to be in the game and still balance it.
Further more it can input the extra powers of the classes and convert them to match the theme of the staff, like a blood line power, or domain power to be transfered over.
Like a Celestial staff that allowed someone to at the moment spend a spell slot to cast a spell from the Celestial bloodline of the same level or spend a domain power, bloodline power, school power, Bardic Performance or other supernatural ability to perform "Heavenly Fire"
Yes runestaffs from the Magic Item Compendium, maybe not the same thing...
Aren't they though? Casting select spells from your staff and then using your own spell slots to recharge it is hardly different from a staff that let's you spontaneously cast said select spells. Both allow you to use up your slots to cast spells you wouldn't otherwise be able to cast. The latter, however, makes more sense (from a scaling standpoint) and has FAR less rules complexity behind it.
It would usually take more than just a few days for my casters to recharge a staff while between campaign story points. They typically have some need to cast other high level spells for a few days at least. To recharge a staff would require being on a vacation in a highly secure facility so that high level spells can be dedicated to charging a staff. My casters aren't typically going to sacrifice their best divination or defensive or warding spells just to charge their staves.I don't think Staves are at all overpriced compared to other consumable items (staves aren't exactly consumable because of their recarge ability, but I think they're closer to wands than items with charges per day). In fact, they're only slightly more expensive than wands. 800xlvxCL vs 750xlvxCL.
Compared to per day items, they cost about as much as items with 2-3 charges per day. Provided you have several days downtime for every 3-4 days spent adventuring(which, IMC we generally do), you'll likely get at least 2-3, if not more, uses per day with the added benefit of being able to use your caster level and main stat.
If, on the otherhand, you adventure non-stop for weeks at a time, I can see how the recharge mechanic would fail to satisfy.
It takes max 10 days to recharge a completely empty staff. It takes longer than that to craft anything worthwhile at high levels. Even if you have less, even a couple of days is enough for one more day of adventuring.
I don't even see the big deal about recharging while adventuring if you absolutely must, let alone hiding in a high security facility. It takes one, 1, singular, high level spell per day to recharge a staff. Depending on the staff, maybe not even the highest level you can cast. Even if it is, you get at least three of your highest level, plus 4-5 of your 2nd highest level, not to mention anything your other class abilities bring to the table. Most casters can afford to give up just one of those spells and still bring it with the best of them, and you get back that power in the form of versatility with your staff, including a spell of the level you sacrificed.
Finally, if you need to cast more than three of your highest level spells per day during downtime, then it's not really downtime and you should ask your GM about earning some XP for that stuff.
The real benefit of staves as they are written now is added versatility. Giving up a single 6th-level spell slot every day is totally worth it if it gives you access to multiple different 6th-level spells, as well as some lower level spells as well.
Turn that maximized fireball you had into your choice of a chain lightning, greater heroism, greater dispel magic, or web. The staff allows me (more) powerful damaging spell, buffs, debuffs, or battlefield control as needed for a given situation.
Heck, if I'm expecting a vacation coming up, I can turn that 1 slot I used this morning into TEN SLOTS.
Hugely helpful when you know the coming battle with the BBEG is an all stakes game.
The first time I saw staves I assumed that they recharged every day. Once I found out that's not true I was upset.
It takes max 10 days to recharge a completely empty staff. It takes longer than that to craft anything worthwhile at high levels. Even if you have less, even a couple of days is enough for one more day of adventuring.
I don't even see the big deal about recharging while adventuring if you absolutely must, let alone hiding in a high security facility. It takes one, 1, singular, high level spell per day to recharge a staff. Depending on the staff, maybe not even the highest level you can cast. Even if it is, you get at least three of your highest level, plus 4-5 of your 2nd highest level, not to mention anything your other class abilities bring to the table. Most casters can afford to give up just one of those...
I'm sure everyone plays this game differently. In my group we don't have long breaks between encounters. Ever. The longest "downtime" my level 8 druid has had since starting her current campaign at level 5 has been three days. We still haven't completed the quest. When we do, I may never play her again. But until then she ain't never gonna have ten days to charge a staff.
And if she HAD a "staff of fire" fully charged at any point in time? That would allow her to cast four walls of fire before she begins sacrificing spellpower for the ability to cast "wall of fire." Which she can already cast without the staff.
If she was in a campaign where she got to soak in the spa for a week after a difficult day at the office, then maybe staves would be more practical.
AD, you're making an argument against staves, based, in large part, on the style of y0ur particular GM.
Staves are fine, the way they're priced. You might just talk to your GM and ask for a break, or a bend in the rules to allow you to recharge more than one charge of the staff per day.
AD, you're making an argument against staves, based, in large part, on the style of y0ur particular GM.
Staves are fine, the way they're priced. You might just talk to your GM and ask for a break, or a bend in the rules to allow you to recharge more than one charge of the staff per day.
No, it's not the style of the GM. He is running modules. The modules don't give the party vacation time.
Sure, he could fudge the module so we could head to the beach, but he's playing the modules straight.
Plus, that's how most fantasy literature is written too. Long strings of combat with very little break until some major plot point is achieved, then perhaps a significant break in the action.
And playing as if the characters are actual sentient humanoids, the party has made powerful enemies and those enemies won't take the day off either.
Staves seem to me to be useful for a very specific style of play. Take a long break on the beach, charge everything up in comfort, then go off on a four or five day "adventure" and take another two week break.
If anything belies verisimilitude, it's that type of play.
Staves and recharges during adventuring seems to favor a Lord of the Rings approach to an adventure - namely, one which is comprised of several to many days of just walking between encounters/plot points. In my experience, the point where staves become affordable is the point where we stop walking places and teleport/air walk/whatever to get to where we're going lickety split.
If I had 2 days of walking where I didn't need to use more than a handful of spells, I could easily recharge my staff. But since we're eager to vanquish whatever burgeoning evil we're pitted against, and since my staff wielder is a mage of reality-shaping powers who can fold time and space at a whim, such opportunities rarely present themselves.
AD,
Most of the paizo modules I've been in aren't very long, 2-3 sessions at most. With as much downtime as your DM wants in between. Most of the APs are designed with as much downtime as the DM wants as well.
In games I DM, even when I present my players a plot point, the crafters may often say, "I'll get right on that. Just as soon as I finish this item." That leaves me with the decision of whether or not to penalize them, or even allow them time off. Now, I don't give in to their every demand, but I also don't want to devalue their characters by not giving them enough time to use their feats and items.
running a party through 8 levels with no downtime in an AP that can easily be adjusted to allow as much downtime as the DM sees fit is completely a result of DM style.
And you don't have to go to the beach, either. Any day that your Druid doesn't completely cast every one of her spells is a day she can probably afford to put a charge on a staff.
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Here is an example of the cost being too high for what you need.
Staffs Fire 18,950, being that you has to spend at max half on total on one item you cannot afford this staff until level 9. This staff gives you 5 fireballs, but at level 9 you can already prepare 6 fireballs. Almost the same can be said for wall or fire, 3 from the staff or cast 3. And this is before adding the specialties or added spells from attributes. I see that instead of 6 fire balls you can now do 11 in one day, but how many times do you have to cast fire ball. For the cost it really seems like something unneeded.
For 1/2 the cost a person can get a metamagic rod and improve the spells that they are already casting.
=---= Note this is before the cast 11 in one day then spell the next day to recharge or cast yourself decision.
I should point out that staves "use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a staff is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity".
So someone in your face a stave will be better than casting (no AOO) and wands (staves at caster spell level).
Generally speaking if Staves are provided in a module or adventure i /love/ them in our current game our bard has a staff that dumps out tornadoes and we just got one my char gave to her familiar for Telekinesis.
Would i have crafted any of them? no but its nice once we have them them it provdes access to spells we cant normally cast and our sorcerer can recharge them.
I should point out that staves "use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a staff is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity".
So someone in your face a stave will be better than casting (no AOO) and wands (staves at caster spell level).
By the time you can afford any kind of worthwhile combat staff, you will long have been able to cast your most powerful spells defensively without any chance of failure.
The last noun I would verb is idiomatic English for "I would not verb noun if I had any alternative" Staffs are not a capstone. They're like Prone Shooter. You take Prone Shooter if you're an epic level 600 player and have literally run out of feats to take. You buy a staff if your GM is so Monty Hall that you've run out of more economical magic items to buy.Which is pretty much the intended design...they're a capstone item for a master caster, not something for the novice.
Staves as currently designed are the last significant magic item that any caster of mine would even consider buying.
I have no idea what you said in the first part of that.
I agree with the last bit, though. I just "bought" a staff of evocation, when I hit 18th level, so that my druid could chuck out a chain lightning.
In retrospect, I think the gold might have been better spent on a metamagic rod.
AD, back to the topic, whether the 'no rest' think is a function of the modules' design, and/or the way the GM is running them, you might ask to bypass the 1 (re)charge/day rule.
I'm still standing by my position (and someone else summed it up with the fact that staves are rechargable) that they're priced correctly, due to the versatility they provide.
The modules our GM is running are 3.5 modules that he has converted to Pathfinder. When we originally began running them, we were still playing 3.5. It's a series of "something is corrupting nature" modules, and at least in the game world, there is no time to waste because the corruption is continuing even while you sleep.
The whole staff thing has never been an issue until now because up until our last boss fight and the massive loot from his underground lair, we never had nearly enough cash for a staff before. Once we did have enough cash to buy one, I looked at them and thought "wow, those really suck".
To give you an idea of how the modules work, as part of the final clearing out of the underground treant lair, we inadvertently appear to have released a dragon that is part of the dragon cult we originally set out to locate and destroy. So upon emerging from the lair, before we even had a chance to get to town to spend any loot, we were approached by a frantic ranger who begged us to rush to help battle the dragon which was now terrorizing the countryside.
So, yeah, not much downtime in this campaign. I suppose once we finally defeat the dragon and destroy his cult, we'll be able to have a few pina coladas and waste a few high level spells. Until then it appears we need every spell we have most days. And random encounters in the night are also not uncommon. So my druid tends to like to keep any "leftover" spells available just in case she needs it in the middle of the night.
In my mind, the big problem is how staves are not priced linearly by Wizard spell level.
Wands are alwyas 0.6 scrolls per charge. Staves are not. Watch...
Level 1
Scroll Cost : 25 gp
Wand Cost: 750 gp (as much as 30 scrolls)
Three Spell Staff Cost: 7,200 gp (as much as 288 scrolls)
Level 2
Scroll Cost : 150 gp
Wand Cost: 4,500 gp (as much as 30 scrolls)
Three Spell Staff Cost: 14,400 gp (as much as 96 scrolls)
Level 3
Scroll Cost : 375 gp
Wand Cost: 11,250 gp (as much as 30 scrolls)
Three Spell Staff Cost: 21,600 gp (as much as 58 scrolls)
Level 4
Scroll Cost : 700 gp
Wand Cost: 21,000 gp (as much as 30 scrolls)
Three Spell Staff Cost: 28,800 gp (as much as 41 scrolls)
Thus first-level staves are prohibitively expensive, but it is difficult to imagine any Wizard wanting to make a fourth-level wand instead of a staff.