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Bill and Ben are facing each other in combat.
Each has a vorpal weapon and a ton of critical feats, and poor ACs to boot, so each is vitally keen to get in the first blow.
At first, neither is within striking distance, though we can assume that initiaves have been rolled.
Bill, the sharper of the two (no pun intended), decides to ready an action to hit Ben should Ben go to hit him. He reasons that, since the readied action takes place before the condition for which it is readied, he'll get in the first blow.
Ben, seeing what Bill is doing, decides to do exactly the same thing.
And so they both gradually close in on each other, poised to strike but unwilling to do so, until the bells of Doom toll and they both die of old age.
Unless, of course, a wise man comes along and explains to them how to get out of their predicament.
What would he say?
Richard
"Why on earth do you care so much about getting the first hit? Vorpal has a 5% chance of even threatening to chop off your head. You should be more worried about who gets the first full attack, which is going to be way more deadly at this level. And neither of you have a ranged weapon? Heck, throwing rocks is going to be a better use of your turn than "Ready Action.""
As Mort mentioned, he would say "Why don't you own a ranged weapon?"
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"I have a solution for both of you. Sit down, have some tea, and read this scroll. Afterwords, hopefully you have resolved your differences." -Old man walks off, leaving a haiku scroll of the most powerful Explosive Runes cast known to mortals-
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Can Bill and Ben tell what action the other is readying? I ask because the rules are silent on this issue, and I've always played it in my games that you can see that someone is readying an action, but not what action they'e readying (that just makes sense to me).
If they can't anticipate the trigger for each other's actions, the answer is easy!
You can 5-foot step as part of a readied action, so Ben should get just outside of Bill's reach and ready an action to "Step Forward and Strike once Bill Readies an Action"
If Bill readies an action, Ben's action goes off before hand, he steps forward and cuts off Bill's head. If Bill doesn't ready an action, Ben can step forward and cut off Bill's head on his next turn without fear of reprisal.
If Bill can see what Ben's plan is, however, then Bill only has to step forward and strike, since that won't trigger Ben's action. In that case, I think it would come down to Bluff checks to obscure one's intent, or possibly Fortitude/Constitution checks to see who passes out/dies from starvation/thirst/sleep deprivation.
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[sigh]
Ok, for *whatever* reason, Bill and Ben want to get the first blow in.
Probably the example I should have given was that they're both on 1 hp, don't have any ranged weapons. Maybe they're gladiators in an arena - the last two standing.
There is a paradox here because the rules on "readying" are illogical.
In the real world, you cannot ready an action to do something based on the condition that your opponent starts doing the same thing, and then somehow imagine that you're going to finish first.
"Readying" has got to somehow or another involve shortening the length of time that an action takes by, well, getting it ready, like drawing back a bow or, presumably, swinging back a weapon.
The effect of readying has got to be that the length of time for completing the action is now less than the length of time of the action you are triggering on.
So, in my Bill and Ben example, the two readied actions are now the same time, so "readying" no longer works - whoever swings first will connect first.
Equally, I could not conceive someone readying an action in response to an Immediate or Swift action, i.e. you couldn't ready an action to shoot a spell-caster when he casts Feather Fall.
The common use, readying an action to shoot a spell caster when he tries to cast a (standard-action based) spell, works fine, I just think some of these other cases need clarification.
Richard
If we want to get reality based on this, two characters, even in adjacent squares, are not actually right next to each other. There is a distance between them, a distance that one or the other is going to have to cross to attack. The other character is waiting for him to get close, watching intently so that he can get his attack in on the opponent first. I don't find this terribly unrealistic.
As for shooting a caster who uses a swift or immediate spell, I still don't see the problem. The spell is fast, but not instantaneous. By reading the action, you are standing there, bow ready and arrow nocked, waiting for any indication of casting. The moment they start, you let your arrow fly. I don't know how long it takes to cast a swift spell, but I'll wager it is less time than it takes for a speeding fantasy arrow to travel between the two of you.
I don't think clarification is necessary. I see at as working fine pretty much all the time, you see it working fine most of the time. With any rule set, corner cases are going to come up that don't create a satisfactory resolution. The question is whether or not several sentences, or even paragraphs of text are worthwhile to address a situation that comes up rarely, if at all.
I believe this whole situation falls under the initiative rules.
They are effectively going at the same time. Therefore, the higher modifier goes first, and if equal, the higher Dex. After that, you roll.
But yeah, the whole goal here is to be the one with the most attacks going first. You've a 5% of losing your head, but a full attack routine is 4 chances to take his head, with a whole lot of damage adn critical effects on top of that.
==Aelryinth
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I must admit I intend to house-rule this, because I think you can have an equally simple system which doesn't lead to these paradoxes.
1) You can ready any action which can be prepared in such a way that its completion is an immediate action. You can then take that immediate action like any other immediate action.
2) If you take damage while "readying" a spell in this manner, you have to make a concetration check just as if you were casting a full-round spell.
3) An immediate action can only interrupt someone else's standard, move or full action.
That's it.
I'm not sure about having to specify the trigger condition ahead of time and the change in initiative. It would simplify things to remove these two things. I know that it means that someone could, on their initiative, use their immediate action to finish casting last round's spell and then cast another spell, but that's no different to casting a full-round spell followed by an ordinary spell.
Richard
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[sigh]
Ok, for *whatever* reason, Bill and Ben want to get the first blow in.
Probably the example I should have given was that they're both on 1 hp, don't have any ranged weapons. Maybe they're gladiators in an arena - the last two standing.
There is a paradox here because the rules on "readying" are illogical.
I dunno, I've seen (and lived) this situation many times in sports, whereas each player waits for the other player's move. It even has an important place in cinema. Watch Star Wars IV, V and VI and there are several moments where luke/obi-wan and darth vader hesitate for of 5-6 seconds before taking a move. Spaghetti western duel everyone?
Usually, one of the 'adversary' yields to pressure a take the first move (be it pressure from fans, opponent's team, the rest of the game/players or stress built-up between the two 'adversaries').
All that to say that the situation doesn't seem illogical to me and far from being paradoxical (although I admit it can be rather anti-climatic pertaining to a RPG, unlike in movies). If I had a situation like that to deal with, I might enforce a Will save with raising DC each round. Whoever fails first is forced to take the first move.
'findel
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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[sigh]
Ok, for *whatever* reason, Bill and Ben want to get the first blow in.
Probably the example I should have given was that they're both on 1 hp, don't have any ranged weapons. Maybe they're gladiators in an arena - the last two standing.
There is a paradox here because the rules on "readying" are illogical.
I dunno, I've seen (and lived) this situation many times in sports, whereas each player waits for the other player's move. It even has an important place in cinema. Watch Star Wars IV, V and VI and there are several moments where luke/obi-wan and darth vader hesitate for of 5-6 seconds before taking a move. Spaghetti western duel everyone?
Usually, one of the 'adversary' yields to pressure a take the first move (be it pressure from fans, opponent's team, the rest of the game/players or stress built-up between the two 'adversaries').
All that to say that the situation doesn't seem illogical to me and far from being paradoxical (although I admit it can be rather anti-climatic pertaining to a RPG, unlike in movies). If I had a situation like that to deal with, I might enforce a Will save with raising DC each round. Whoever fails first is forced to take the first move.
'findel
This. It's not a paradox, it's a feature!
ready an action to "Step Forward and Strike once Bill Readies an Action"
That doesn't seem legal. If it is, I wouldn't allow it in my games.
Were I running the game, I would use this opportunity to reminisce back to the days of Oriental Adventures and Iaijutsu Focus.
Two mighty warriors, staring at each other across a field of battle. Sweat evaporating from the intensity of their glares... a cherry blossom leaf falls ... sudden movement.
Take the opportunity from their jackassery to create a dramatic moment, and move the game along. Personally, if both are readied, I'd call time out and say "OK, we are now in staring contest mode. Give me opposed <something> checks to see who flinches first."
Could be fresh init, could be bluff or perception. Pick something that doesn't give one an unfair advantage.
By RAW, though, they'd stare at each other until a bladder gave out.
I would ask the players how long they would wait, not out loud in order to reduce metagaming, but to pass me a note. If they are too silly to change tactics or walk away from the fight then they both pass out from exhaustion(no sleep).
Five foot step back and throw something.
I must admit I intend to house-rule this, because I think you can have an equally simple system which doesn't lead to these paradoxes.
1) You can ready any action which can be prepared in such a way that its completion is an immediate action. You can then take that immediate action like any other immediate action.
2) If you take damage while "readying" a spell in this manner, you have to make a concetration check just as if you were casting a full-round spell.
3) An immediate action can only interrupt someone else's standard, move or full action.
That's it.
I'm not sure about having to specify the trigger condition ahead of time and the change in initiative. It would simplify things to remove these two things. I know that it means that someone could, on their initiative, use their immediate action to finish casting last round's spell and then cast another spell, but that's no different to casting a full-round spell followed by an ordinary spell.
Richard
I have no idea what you're trying to do here. You can already take immediate actions on other people's turns (that's why they're immediate, not swift), and you can't make attacks, cast most spells, or anything else as an immediate action.
one of them runs away, waits behind next corner with readied action to strike him when he runs after him.
If he doesn't run after him, sneak up when he sleeps.
That's of course if I were the GM.
If I were the old guy, I would get close to player A, lean close to his ear so player B can't hear me, and then stabb him in the back.
Tell player B how he owes you one (free action) while you secretly ready an action, when he comes close to thank you, stabb him in the face.
I just got 2 vorpal +1 blades and can live the rest of my life in brothels and die with a smile on my face.
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I have no idea what you're trying to do here. You can already take immediate actions on other people's turns (that's why they're immediate, not swift), and you can't make attacks, cast most spells, or anything else as an immediate action.
A readied action, by RAW, is very similar to an immediate action in its execution. You have to have readied it, but then you can take it more or less whenever you like, and it's far from a quick thing.
I could ready an action to run 30' through a door when I see you about to fire an arrow at me. I could even run past you to do it, and round the corner to get total cover, and you would have to watch me do it before you got a chance to let your arrow fly.
Now of course this is basically what happens in the initiative system anyway, and sure it's unrealistic but we have to accept that. What's odd about the readied action system is allowing you to take a standard or move action in response to some trigger, like some getting ready to fire an arrow at you, and then completing your action before the triggering one does.
To my mind, "readying" has to imply that you perform most of the action in your initiative, leaving just the last little bit to be performed at the point you want (i.e. like an immediate action).
Richard
Readying an action is not on your initiative. What you are doing when readying is getting in setup.
It would be like me saying I am going to shoot the wizard with an arrow if he starts to cast a spell. That does not mean my arrow is nocked, but I am so focused on that one action that nothing else enters my mind.
I do understand why you see it like you do. I was just giving another version of possible flavor. :)
Also remember that this is all happening in 6 seconds.
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In the real world, you cannot ready an action to do something based on the condition that your opponent starts doing the same thing, and then somehow imagine that you're going to finish first.
You can ready actions in the real world. In the real world you can see when someone is getting ready to attack. Their eyes, their limbs, their breathing all give things away. In the real world you start your ready action as soon as you see the other person acting. Most people use this defensively: knock a weapon aside, block a blow, or step aside. In boxing you can see that plus attacks in response. Sometimes the ready action is to wait for an opening while defending.
We can do more contingencies in combat in real life than in the game, which is fine as it prevents overly complicated ready actions in the game. In combat attention is at a premium. If you are readying against one guy you might not see the other guy.
Regarding the original question: these guys are high level and low AC and low hp. I think one just throws his vorpal sword and kills the other guy. -4 is not gonna matter much and one might have Throw Anything.
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Readying and Delaying if done by all parties in a fight would just delay the fight forever. It becomes the old schoolyard fight trope "you punch first" "no, YOU punch first." Until once person finally attacks or they both walk away.
That is the problem with your scenario. It assumes that they will never walk away or that one won't get impatient. When running games I find that players get impatient after a couple rounds and just attack. Once in a while I take advantage and have the enemy use the free round to run away. Oooo that gets their goat.
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The problem is that the readied action finishes before the one that triggers it, even though they both take the same time.
If I ready an action to drink a potion the second I see you start to drink yours, I'm going to finish drinking my potion first.
The only way you can prevent this happening is to also ready an action to drink your potion. Now I wont start drinking mine, because you didn't start drinking yours, and if I do start drinking mine you'll get yours drunk first through your readied action and you'll win!
So we'll both stand there staring at each other with potions in our hands :-)
(Assuming all this matters, of course)
I'm going to post up some house-rule suggestions for this and a few other related issues which bother me in the Advice forums in a few days time when I've sorted them out in my head. I think it's best to think of this sort of thing as house-rules rather than a critique of actual rules.
Richard
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The problem is that the readied action finishes before the one that triggers it, even though they both take the same time.
If I ready an action to drink a potion the second I see you start to drink yours, I'm going to finish drinking my potion first.
The only way you can prevent this happening is to also ready an action to drink your potion. Now I wont start drinking mine, because you didn't start drinking yours, and if I do start drinking mine you'll get yours drunk first through your readied action and you'll win!
So we'll both stand there staring at each other with potions in our hands :-)
(Assuming all this matters, of course)
It does not matter.
You will never have the eternal circle of readiness because either the player or DM will get impatient and then go. No house rules are needed to fix it.
It might happen in the abstract: two devils eternally circling but never in a real game. I would bet $1000 no one has had that happen.
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Any anomaly in the rules can be sorted out on the fly by players and GMs.
However, the reason so many debates about the rules happen here is because people don't like anomalies in the rules.
My personal preference is to resolve anomalies in some sort of logical way and then document it.
Richard
This is not an anomaly in the rules. It is an anomaly in tactics. They are essentially choosing to never attack unless the other guy attacks. They can break out of the cycle at any time. If one guy advances and attacks then the other guy's readied action goes off. There is nothing to fix.
edit: just to be clear here. You need to ready the action again every round (since combat is done in rounds) and if a guy chooses to do a different action than readying the cycle is broken. Just that easy. I am throwing this in just in case you didn't realize that ready was only good for the round.
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Ready:
ReadyThe ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
Distracting Spellcasters: You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell.” If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Spellcraft check result).
Readying to Counterspell: You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell”). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (and are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster's spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn't always work.
Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready weapons with the brace feature, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.
Readying is a single action, no "I will 5 foot step and strike if he does X". You essentially forfeit the action that your readied act needs and sit and wait. If the trigger goes off, then your initiative count moves to a step before the one who triggered it. If the one who triggered the action has an immediate action to use, he may use that in response, if he has not used a swift action that round already. The initiative move in no way effects the trigger man, other than him being on the receiving end of the action. He still continues to resolve his turn.
The OP Situation will only resolve when one decides to enter reach range of the other and triggers the readied action. there is no anomaly in the rules or any endless looping situation other than two dorks with swords.
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There is still not a problem. Let us say the enemies are A and B. The Spaces between them are X and Y
A x y B
Standing in those positions with readied actions to attack one another will do nothing. The first one using a normal action to step forward one space will trigger the others readied action. Until then, they stand still and do nothing.
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Good one.You're *THIS* close to figuring out why RPGs need to be run by a DM and not a robot.Any anomaly in the rules can be sorted out on the fly by players and GMs.
No it's not, actually; I found that comment both ignorant and offensive. I don't advocate slavish adherence to the rules, however I see no reason why we shouldn't discuss how well or badly the rules work on this forum.
Richard
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You may find it offensive, but it certainly isn't ignorant. I am fully aware of what is being discussed and the mechanics involved, I just find it laughable to expect a rules system to cover every corner case imaginable. And, as other people have already said, there isn't an issue with the readied action rule. The "speed" of that action has nothing to do with the rule, one interrupts the other's action. If you issue a conditional statement and the condition isn't fulfilled, the readied action does not occur.
In this instance, I would let both players hold their triggered actions for as long as they want and have them make CON checks to see who can hold their position/stance the longest.
Bim bends Ben's broom
Ben bends Bim's broom
Bim's bends
Ben's bends
Bim's bent broom breaks
Ben's bent broom breaks
Bim and Ben lead bands with brooms, Ben's band bangs while Bim's band booms.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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The problem is that the readied action finishes before the one that triggers it, even though they both take the same time.
The finale of The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
Go watch that scene, it's awesome.
Pay attention to the part right before the shooting starts. You'll note that, right around 6:39 or so, Angel Eyes (aka The Bad, played by the incomparable Lee Van Cleef) actually moves first. It's a bit jumpy, but you can see him reaching for his weapon before Blondie draws his gun.
Clint Eastwood gets to shoot first because he's faster than Lee Van Cleef. He won Initiative. Just like in the readied action scenario you posted above, it doesn't matter who makes the first move, whoever wins initiative is faster, and gets their action first. I think it works fine that way.
But that's just my opinion. I can't and wouldn't stop you from tinkering with the system. Just don't write the old girl off so easily. :)
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But that's how it works when I change it - the faster in the initiative wins.
Clint wins initiative, but since he's not metagaming he readies an action to shoot rather than just shoot, in case Lee has his action ready.
Lee is now sunk. If he shoots, Clint's readied action gets him first. If he readies his action as well, by RAW they both just stand there, but by my system Clint shoots Lee because Clint's action is now immediate and Lee can't interrupt that with his own (even immediate) readied action.
Richard
In a real game I would just take a different action such as shooting him in the face with a bow. He can keep getting shot in the face or drop that readied action. Making people make decisions is a part of the game.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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But that's how it works when I change it - the faster in the initiative wins.
Clint wins initiative, but since he's not metagaming he readies an action to shoot rather than just shoot, in case Lee has his action ready.
Lee is now sunk. If he shoots, Clint's readied action gets him first. If he readies his action as well, by RAW they both just stand there, but by my system Clint shoots Lee because Clint's action is now immediate and Lee can't interrupt that with his own (even immediate) readied action.
Richard
Then your problem isn't really that the readied action occurs before the trigger, because that's how it would work in your system too (right?)
(EDIT: That is to say, if I ready an action, and you trigger it, in most cases my action still goes first under your proposed change, yes?)
Your problem is this hypothetical deadlock, that only occurs when you have two hyperlogical immortals that never need to eat, drink, or sleep. (As an aside, I think it would be a pretty cool encounter for a plane hopping party...to stumble across two evenly matched outsiders standing paces apart, their hands on their weapons, waiting for the other to make the first move. That's kind of cool.)
In the game world, just like in the real world, just like in The Good, The Bad and the Ugly, someone always flinches. Someone always makes the first move, even though they know it'll be disadvantageous. Lee Van Cleef may suspect that Clint has a readied action to shoot him down, but Lee can't stand there all day, and he can't walk away from the gold. He's going to draw, because worst case scenario there's at least a 1 in 20 chance that Clint will miss, and he's got to do something.
You remove the tension from the moment. Clint may as well just shoot on his turn, because if Lee has a readied action, nothing Clint can do can stop him, and if Clint readies an action, it gives him no real advantage over Lee.
Readied actions also don't always resolve first. If I ready my action to trip you if you try to run by me then the my action does not activate until you get into threat range even though you have already been moving.
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Good one.You're *THIS* close to figuring out why RPGs need to be run by a DM and not a robot.Any anomaly in the rules can be sorted out on the fly by players and GMs.
No it's not, actually; I found that comment both ignorant and offensive. I don't advocate slavish adherence to the rules, however I see no reason why we shouldn't discuss how well or badly the rules work on this forum.
That's the thing. The ready action rules already work well. There is no scenario where characters will be required to circle forever. They may choose to do so but that is a choice and not a rules problem. There is no infinite loop of ready actions.