Changes for Guide 4.2

[Michael Brock]

There are multiple threads advising that something should be added or taken out of the next Guide. In the interest of keeping all those thoughts in one place, please use this thread to list all of those. This will be a tremendous aid to me and the Venture -Officers when we look at the Guide closer to Gen Con.

This thread is not to debate changes, just to list them. Thanks for your help.

[Michael Brock]

I will start. Minimum age should be defined by what is listed in the Core Rulebook. Found in page 5 under Abilities. Discussion started in this Thread

[Pirate Rob]

Spells ending at the end of the scenario needs clarifying.

[Helaman]

Wizard Bonded Item (2nded) needs clarifying.

Nice if the ammo costs were resolved as well but I doubt that will come in 4.2.

The bonded item thing should be in it

[teribithia9]

Sadly, I think something should be put in the sanctioned novels section to clarify that the items listed on the chronicles are not received for free; that the chronicle grants access, but you still have to pay for the item.

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Since the bonded item is specific to only a couple of classes, that will probably end up in the FAQ.

While the ammo prices for special materials is definitely vague, it is also a problem with the way they are written in the Core rules, not PFS rules, so errata for that should be requested in the main forums.

Does it not already say somewhere in the Guide that getting a chronicle, regardless of what kind it is, only gives access to buying the items listed? If not, then that definitely needs clarifying.

[calagnar]

I'm new to PFSP so take this for what it's worth.

This lay out wold have made allot more sense to me reading it for the first time.
Day Job
Fame (this affects what you can buy. So it makes it simpler to understand.)
Benefits of Fame
Spending Prestige Points
Where to Buy Gear

Other then that it was very well done. And I figured it out but it wold have been less confusing to me to know befor hand that you have to have # Fame to buy X.

[james maissen]

Michael Brock wrote:

There are multiple threads advising that something should be added or taken out of the next Guide. In the interest of keeping all those thoughts in one place, please use this thread to list all of those. This will be a tremendous aid to me and the Venture -Officers when we look at the Guide closer to Gen Con.

This thread is not to debate changes, just to list them. Thanks for your help.

1. Removing the restriction on taking 10 from the day job roll.

2. Allowing scrolls of higher caster level to be purchased.

3. Removing the special rules on consumables (i.e. if a Paladin's lesser restoration spell is a problem then simply have the rule be that it's now a 2nd level spell for them, etc).

4. Highlighting in a different color the text that's changed from the prior version of the guide to make it easier for the casual reader to catch.

-James

[Dragnmoon]

ooooh I got one...

Current Reading

PFS Guide Pg 20 wrote:

Any spell cast by a PC during the course of a scenario that is still active at the end of a scenario ends when the scenario does.

Change to

PFS Guide Pg 20 wrote:

Any spell cast by a PC or NPC during the course of a scenario that is still active at the end of a scenario ends when the scenario does.

[Alexander_Damocles]

Dragnmoon wrote:

ooooh I got one...

Current Reading

PFS Guide Pg 20 wrote:

Any spell cast by a PC during the course of a scenario that is still active at the end of a scenario ends when the scenario does.

Change to

PFS Guide Pg 20 wrote:

Any spell cast by a PC or NPC during the course of a scenario that is still active at the end of a scenario ends when the scenario does.

It needs to be more specific than that. Would healing spells end at the end of a session? How about damage spells to enemies? What about any spells or rituals performed by the PC's for faction objectives? It seems like the campaign is going out of its way to avoid spells such as permanency, animate dead, and masterwork transformation.

[Dragnmoon]

And 2 more.. 2 that seem to bring up a lot of questions.

PFS Guide Page 26 wrote:

Seasons 1 and 2 (Scenarios #29–#56 and #2–01 through #2–26): These scenarios all include two faction missions. For characters using the standard advancement track, one of these should be considered the faction mission and the other the success condition for the scenario, maintaining the 2 Prestige Point maximum.

I know what you guys where trying to say with this, to keep the same theme going, but it has just been to damn confusing.

Change to

PFS Guide Page 26 wrote:

Seasons 1 and 2 (Scenarios #29–#56 and #2–01 through #2–26): These scenarios all include two faction missions. Completing overall scenario goal for these scenarios does not give you a prestige point. Characters using the standard advancement track get 1 prestige point per faction mission competed.

Also

PFS Guide Page 6 wrote:

Additionally, except for specific examples cited in this guide or the Pathfinder Society FAQ, the Craft skill is not legal for play and crafting of mundane items is not allowed in Pathfinder Society.

Saying Craft skill is not legal for play is just not true, it invalidates many Missions and scenarios using the craft skill for a success condition which both don't meet the criteria "specific examples cited in this guide".

Change to

PFS Guide Page 6 wrote:

Additionally, except for specific examples cited in this guide or the Pathfinder Society FAQ, crafting of mundane items is not allowed in Pathfinder Society.

the Craft skill is not legal for play and was removed from above.

[Michael Brock]

Please start a new thread if you wish to ask why something is or why something should change. I just need highlights here so when we get ready to review the new Guide, I don't have to scroll through 400 posts. Please just list what you think should be changed or tweaked and debate it in its own thread. You can even link the discussion like I did above if you like.

I'm going to remove all posts that do not fit that criteria. If you have questions, want to raise issues, etc... please don't do it here. It just makes it harder to use this thread for its intended purpose in 6 months. Thanks for the help.

[james maissen]

Michael Brock wrote:

Please just list what you think should be changed

Remove the ban on the spell permanency.

-James

[deusvult]

Add in a statement that says GMs can't approve PCs creating new spells.

[W. Kristoph Nolen]

I would also Suggest to others - for sake of helping Mike with this thread - that we use the "favorite" in the corner of each post if we agree with or like the idea of the proposed change. That way he knows how many of us want the same change.

[Eric Clingenpeel]

You guys are missing the point of the thread. This isn't to suggest things that you think need changing, its to post things that need clarification or are actually wrong.

[Kalmyel Stedwethren]

No, the OP clearly states that it's for listing what changes you want to see in future guides (without arguing over them).

That said: Please reinstate the Magical Knack trait. As it stands, spellcasters are essentially punished for multiclassing while the other classes suffer no such penalisation.

[Paz]

Clarification on what the limits of the Weapon Style trait (available to the Lantern Lodge faction) are with regard to weapon choice, as discussed in this thread.

[Dragnmoon]

An Oldy but a goody!

The Original intent of the Original PFS coordinator was to allow scrolls and Wands to be bought at Higher caster level, But a misunderstanding between myself, Mark (Yes that Mark) and Joshua led to a weird chain of events that it was not clarified in the guide and not added PFS.

And it is all My Fault!!!! *cries*

Here is the original post by Joshua

Here is a description of the weird chain of events that led to it not being added.

I have always felt bad about this one... :(

[Theocrat]

As it currently reads, a GM needs to sign off on a Novel Chronicle or even a Special Holiday Boon. To be a GM according to the guide is to have a PFS number and a desire to be a GM. Thus according to the rules, anybody that decides to download a novel or holiday chronicle can sign their own sheet (of course they still need to officially own the novel [in at least one format]). With any event number (many GM's have a standing event number for general events that they run) they can list that event and sign their own chronicle. This seems to be a grey area but one that is not illegal as it reads. Maybe a clarification that a GM other than the GM/Player themselves needs to sign novel and holiday boons.

[Shivok]

Dragnmoon wrote:

An Oldy but a goody!

The Original intent of the Original PFS coordinator was to allow scrolls and Wands to be bought at Higher caster level, But a misunderstanding between myself, Mark (Yes that Mark) and Joshua led to a weird chain of events that it was not clarified in the guide and not added PFS.

And it is all My Fault!!!! *cries*

Here is the original post by Joshua

Here is a description of the weird chain of events that led to it not being added.

I have always felt bad about this one... :(

YEAH YOUR COMPULSIVE POSTING RUINED THIS MAN!

...But really this should get removed you should be allowed to purchase wands at higher level. Casters get hosed in all different ways already in PFS. This shouldnt be one of them.

....please change
.......pretty please
..........pretty please with sugar on top....

[Edric Nansen]

Besides what Dragnmoon posted, there is an additional piece of text that I think contributes to the Prestige Point confusion for non-Season 3 scenarios.

PFS Guide page 18 wrote:

In each scenario, you have the opportunity to earn up to 2 Prestige Points, 1 for achieving the overall scenario mission and 1 for achieving your faction mission.

That's in the Player's part of the Guide, and reads in a rather absolute way. For some players, it seems to set up the expectation that all scenarios work the way Season 3 scenarios work.

Suggested rewording:

Quote:

In each scenario, you have the opportunity to earn up to 2 Prestige Points. For scenarios with two faction missions per faction, you earn 1 Prestige Point for each faction mission completed. For scenarios with only one faction mission per faction, you earn 1 Prestige Point for completing your faction mission and 1 Prestige Point for completing the overall scenario mission.

[teribithia9]

Also, Mike, you've clarified in other threads on the Sanctioned Novel chronicles that you can apply one to each pc that you own (once) when you buy the novel. However, the current wording in the organized play document makes it sound like you can only apply the chronicle to one pc. A rewording would be nice.

[deusvult]

Apparently we need a list of domains a deity will not tolerate for Seperatist Archetype Clerics. Or a list that they WILL.. whichever is shorter.

[Deussu]

The next guide should include information about session types, such as home games, convention games etc.

I raise the question since online PFS sessions are still on the gray and though the Pathfinder Society Online Collective exists, it remains unpromoted and secluded. How are Play By Post games managed? Should they happen exclusively on Paizo's messageboards? How about online gaming? Contacts, recommended software? Is the GM then required to print out, sign, scan, and then send all the chronicle sheets to the participants? (hint hint digital chronicle sheets would be awesome)

Yes, you could contact your nearest regional coordinator, but I doubt even he/she would know about all the possibilities that exist.

[Qstor]

@Mike B. its a good idea to add in your ruling in the other thread: Eyes of Ten gives retroactive XP. If you have finished the entire arc, you will be level 13 with 2 XPs.

Mike

[Chot]

james maissen wrote:

1. Removing the restriction on taking 10 from the day job roll.
-James

Remove the shirt reroll restriction on day job rolls too

[Talonhawke]

Ban the Heirloom Weapon trait so that players don't take a trap option for a weapon that can't be upgraded as they go.

[the Haunted Jester]

Could Handle Animal be added to the list of day job skills?

I could see training animals as a very effective and viable means of making a living.

[Eric Clingenpeel]

There's a vanity for that Jester, a Farmstead for 5pp. (Sorry for the "discussion" post... ;D)

[Tarma]

Remove or lessen the upgrade penalty on +2 upgrades on magical weapons. It should be made so that if you have the fame for the upgrade purchase (but not the total weapon) you should be able to get the upgrade.

At the very least, please clarify how the upgrade process works in 4.2

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Tarma wrote:

Remove or lessen the upgrade penalty on +2 upgrades on magical weapons. It should be made so that if you have the fame for the upgrade purchase (but not the total weapon) you should be able to get the upgrade.

At the very least, please clarify how the upgrade process works in 4.2

Making a +2 enhancement "Always Available" for any character that has reached an appropriate level, somewhere between 5 and 7, would be a good way to fix this.

[Chris Nehren]

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:

Making a +2 enhancement "Always Available" for any character that has reached an appropriate level, somewhere between 5 and 7, would be a good way to fix this.

Sounds like that requirement could be expressed with Fame. Unless there are scenarios in the 1-5 tier that grant disproportionate fame, I don't think that'd be a problem. And even if there were, if your character survived an especially tough scenario, maybe they've earned the right to carry around a +2 item. :)

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Chris Nehren wrote:

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:

Making a +2 enhancement "Always Available" for any character that has reached an appropriate level, somewhere between 5 and 7, would be a good way to fix this.

Sounds like that requirement could be expressed with Fame. Unless there are scenarios in the 1-5 tier that grant disproportionate fame, I don't think that'd be a problem. And even if there were, if your character survived an especially tough scenario, maybe they've earned the right to carry around a +2 item. :)

Even if you earn perfect Fame for every scenario, you would be just short of 6th level (27 Fame) before you have enough to buy a +2 weapon (8000 gold + base weapon cost). But you are not supposed to earn perfect Fame, rather you should average 1.5 to 1.75 per scenario, depending on compatibility between character and mission and toughness of the GM. Besides, having a second tier of basic "Always Available" items, such as +2 weapons and armor, for those who do not have their Fame handed to them by their GMs, would be nice.

[TwilightKnight]

Assuming that is the prevailing opinion, then perhaps a change in table 5-3 Fame and Item Purchases that allow earlier access would be a better solution.

[Eric Clingenpeel]

I don't see this as a problem. I've got a third level rogue that has access to a +1 returning dagger. I can't afford it, but I still have access to it. I haven't played a ton of scenarios, but I'm sure there are others that give access to +2 weapons earlier than you can gain the fame for.

[Mourne]

Add a table of contents and/or an index to the guide. I know its only 36 pages, but there are a lot of rules crammed in there and it can be a pain to find something specific sometimes.

[setzer9999]

Clarify/add clear language around what items can be purchased via the fame tables. Currently it says you can purchase items through your faction, but as far as I can see, reading it over and over, you have to make a logical leap to understand that you may purchase "any legal item" this way. Something along the lines of something as clear as "You may purchase any item legal for Pathfinder Society Play if you are eligible to purchase it based on fame score and in an appropriate settlement". The way it is currently written it just says you can "capitalize on fame", and elsewhere there is a table listing fame to gold prices... but forgive me if I'm missing it, but I was confused as to what that actually meant for a while, and if there was any specific language tying the two together or if you had to put it together yourself.

As far as I can tell, the guide indicates you can purchase "items" at the gold cap of your fame, but it doesn't say "any PFS legal items". This may be being picky, or I may be missing the text that says it, but it being a little clearer couldn't hurt.

[Dragnmoon]

This is more of a Alternate Resources thing then Guide Thing, but it does help bring PFS closer to the RPG rules. I hope that is ok.

Please Re-think about the following not being allowed in PFS play. Some I believe should be added because certain PFS rules have changed, some because I don't understand why they have been excluded since they don't actually break any PFS rules.

I am only listing Pathfinder Roleplaying Game books, though I may list other from APs, Player Companion or Campaign Setting books later.

Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide

Since the Day Job rules have changed, I see less reason to have the following not legal:

• Craftsman alternate Dwarven racial trait
  
• Practicality alternate Halfling racial trait
  
• Heart of the Fields alternate Human racial trait

Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat

I don't understand why the following is not allowed

• poison conversion discovery
  
• Inquisitions for Inquisitor

I still believe the Following Gunslinger type archetypes can fit within the campaign, and the overrun of gunslingers through PFS was way overblown.

• The musketeer archetype
  
• The holy gun archetype
  
• The trophy hunter archetype
  
• The spellslinger archetype

Field Repair - Though I understand the initial response not to allow this feat to be allowed in PFS play, I think it would work withing PFS because it does not actually Craft items, and would allow alternative to the mend spell.

Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic

• Alchemical Simulacrum discovery
  
• alchemical zombie discovery
  
• doppelganger simulacrum discovery
  
• greater alchemical simulacrum discovery
  
• Clone Master alchemist archetype
  
• Pack Lord druid archetype
  
• Broodmaster summoner archetype
  
• true name arcane discovery
  
• staff-like wand arcane discovery

[Alitan]

Something I'd like to see happen is letting PC craft mundane items for purchase or trade with other PCs.

We wouldn't be magically producing gold out of the NPC economy (which is my best guess at why just making stuff was disallowed -- chime in if you know I'm way off, here).

I like making stuff... silly, maybe a bit (like rolling dice to simulate actions by imaginary people in imaginary worlds isn't?) but I was surprised and a bit sad when I found out one of my favorite pass-times was out.

I used to spend the excess skill ranks I got for a high intelligence on my wizard picking up craft skills; glassblowing, woodworking, bookbinding, etc. "Hands-on" wizardry. Rather than filling up on knowledge skills (what I do now in PFSOP) and always fulfilling the "bookworm" stereotype haunting wizards.

Anyway. I used to have a lot of fun with craft skills, would like to do so again.

Thanx.

[teribithia9]

This is a personal pet peeve of mine and I realize it probably won't be changed, but it would be really nice if that phrase about a pc having to be one step in alignment from his/her god (regardless of class). I just find it exceptionally annoying that my sorceror who gets absolutely no divine spells at all from her god, has to be one step away in alignment, even though the core rules put no such restrictions on sorcerors. (especially since her deity isn't actually a god at all) This restriction pretty much puts a block on playing oracles the way they're supposed to be played, revering all the gods who stand for the mystery they're a part of. You can't be one step away in alignment from both Sarenrae and Asmodeus for the fire mystery, for example.
Oh, well. Just thought I'd say it again.

[godsDMit]

What I want more than anything else for the future versions of the guide is for them to have a Table of Contents, a Glossary, or both.

It doesnt need to be extensive to be helpful, and anything would be better than the nothing the guide has now.