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One of my players is creating a PFS PC and asked my advice over the Weapon Style trait, available to the Lantern Lodge faction:
Weapon Style: You gain proficiency in one weapon normally used by monks, such as kama, nunchaku, sai, or shuriken.
The question is, which weapons is the trait limited to?
Is it just those four weapons listed in the trait?
Is it any weapon that monks are proficient with as standard?
Is it any weapon with the monk special weapon quality?
Is it any weapon in the monk expanded weapon group?
The specific question was about the fighting fan from UC, an exotic light melee weapon with the monk weapon quality and in the monk weapon group, but which monks are not proficient with as standard.
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The UC FAQ refers to 'monk weapons' (i.e. the monk special weapon quality) rather than weapon groups, but it implies that unless specifically stated (such as with the class proficiency list, or in the weapon description of the temple sword), a monk is not proficient with these weapons by default.
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I think that monks are proficient with all weapons in the monk weapon group as stated in Ultimate Combat. The monk weapon group I think was created after the CRB which is why you don't see that referenced in the class text.
As referenced by Paz, monks are only proficient with weapons either listed in their proficiency or which say so in their own descriptive text.
The "weapon groups" - monk and otherwise - exist only for the purpose of fighter weapon training.
It would be my interpretation that the trait in question would refer to weapons with the "monk" special weapon quality.
It would be my interpretation that the trait in question would refer to weapons with the "monk" special weapon quality.Ditto.
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| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. |
I think that monks are proficient with all weapons in the monk weapon group as stated in Ultimate Combat. The monk weapon group I think was created after the CRB which is why you don't see that referenced in the class text.As referenced by Paz, monks are only proficient with weapons either listed in their proficiency or which say so in their own descriptive text.
The "weapon groups" - monk and otherwise - exist only for the purpose of fighter weapon training.
It would be my interpretation that the trait in question would refer to weapons with the "monk" special weapon quality.
I recommend restricting oneself to weapons that a plain-vanilla CRB monk can use, i.e., no exotic or new splatbook monk weapons (unless the accompanying text specifically says monks can use them; e.g., temple sword).
Problem: "...one weapon normally used by monks....
-- It is reasonable to conclude that "normally" means those a monk is explicitly listed as being proficient in.
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Thanks for the advice; it looks like the bulk of opinion is that using this trait to gain proficiency with a fighting fan is OK.
If a future FAQ/guide update clarifies that this is not the case, I'm not sure how the errata rules on p22-23 of the guide apply. Would the player be able to exchange the trait for another and sell back the weapon at full value? Or could his PC be left with a weapon (possibly masterwork or magic by that point) that he couldn't use?
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If a future FAQ/guide update clarifies that this is not the case, I'm not sure how the errata rules on p22-23 of the guide apply. Would the player be able to exchange the trait for another and sell back the weapon at full value? Or could his PC be left with a weapon (possibly masterwork or magic by that point) that he couldn't use?
You probably could exchange the trait. To maintain proficiency, a Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid ioun stone would grant familiarity with the weapon; this is a lot cheaper than taking a feat or a level of Unarmed Fighter.
-Matt
Allow me to roll open the question once more; maybe the consensus that Paz refers to has shifted. I'd like for the trait to include any weapon with the monk special quality - but typically getting access to a exotic weapon requires a feat.
Limiting only to weapons that a monk is typically proficient with would make the trait useless for a monk character (given that the most likely faction for a monk is the Lantern Lodge, that would be unfortunate). Also, the strictly monk-proficient weapons are of particularly little interest for the average character - but likewise it is a great short-cut for a select few classes/characters to get proficiency with a slightly more powerful weapon than they have by default.
As an aside: I think the intention is for the trait to give monks of the Lantern Lodge access to some of the more interesting weapons - suitable for a faction representing the Far East. Typically only the "monk" (i.e. flurryable) quality is relevant for these weapons, as the other qualities are generally available for characters already without investing a feat.
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Is it any weapon that monks are proficient with as standard?
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My interpretation has always been this.
No other weapons are normally used by monks. This however includes unarmed attacks.
I dont think this trait is intended to permit anyone tu use a kusarigama, but rather to let non-monks use unarmed attacks, shuriken, sai with proficiency.
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Is it any weapon that monks are proficient with as standard?
...My interpretation has always been this.
No other weapons are normally used by monks. This however includes unarmed attacks.
I dont think this trait is intended to permit anyone tu use a kusarigama, but rather to let non-monks use unarmed attacks, shuriken, sai with proficiency.
Keep in mind that every character is automatically proficient with unarmed strikes, so no interpretation of this trait will have any effect on unarmed strikes.
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Yeah. It was improved unarmed strike I was thinking of, but that is not a proficiency, but a feat. Regardless my understanding is that this trait allows access to a weapon on the monk weapon proficiency list, as a way to add flavor. If it gave access to the arsenal in UC this would be as unbalanced (almost) as the original Heirloom Weapon trait.
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If it gave access to the arsenal in UC this would be as unbalanced (almost) as the original Heirloom Weapon trait.
I dunno; for weapons with the "monk" quality, I'm mostly seeing glorified longswords and such whose only advantage is, in fact, having the "monk" quality. Is there something I'm overlooking?
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Shurikens -- a Hurler/Weapon-Master build could do some sick damage with those (although why such a build would not include Ninja for Flurry of Stars begs the question).
Aside from that, it'd be a way to get shang guo access in a disarm/trip fighter, or a monk's spade (only weapon in the game which will do all three damage types, and which is capable of being used two-handed), or nine-section whip (a d8-19/20x2 block/distract/trip weapon you can use whip feats with, though you forfeit reach and finesse).
Kusarigama or kyoketsu shoge
these weapons are hardly anywhere near unbalanced. in fact, the latter is a weaker version of the former. and the former isn't that bad.
they have fancy tricks, but most of the time, you are better off just whacking stuff with a falchion or plugging it full of arrows.