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If the main thing you are interested in is skills, take a look at the bard and their versatile performance. With some smart choices of perform skills you can eventually have an effective 17 skills per level :-) Knowing how to dance, speak (oratory), and tell a joke (comedy) can fit into any backstory. Plus all those knowledge skills :-D You do not need to be an instrument using bard either. Inspire Courage just works without any perform skill.
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There are over all two types of rogues.
1: Combat effective rogues that can do other things.
2: Rogues that can do stuff and are OK in combat.
I prefer combat effective rogues that can do other things.
For me Rogue/Ranger is a very good way to go. If your going full Rogue it really changes how you build. So a bit more incite in what you want. Will help.
I don't think the Rogue really needs a good int for skills. You're doing fine with 8 base, especially if you're a human. 12 is gravy, unless you have a generous PB.
You can go straight Dex if you get an Agile weapon. Otherwise you'll want some Str. I also like the Offensive Defense talent. Of course, I feel like mechanically a Ninja accomplishes what the rogue dreams of, but that's beside the point.
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I'm playing a TWF rogue right now, and kind of regretting it. It's very difficult to get two sneak attacks in one round, and you shut yourself off from a lot of cool other options.
Here's my human Rogue 5/Shadowdancer 1 and some of the problems I've had with it.
Str - 10
Dex - 18
Con - 10
Int - 14
Wis - 10
Cha - 14
Feats: Quick Draw (so I can switch to short swords and get a full attack)
Dodge/Mobility (our DM combined them)
Combat Reflexes (to be able to take Shadowdancer)
Two Weapon Fighting
Rogue Talents:
Fast Stealth
Weapon Finesse
Equipment:
-Short Sword of +3 Shock Burst
-Short Sword +1
-Boots of Speed
-Mithril Chain Shirt
-Hat of Disguise
-2 Hand Crossbows (useful for getting two sneak attacks off even if I'm not next to someone)
-Wand of Grease
-Gloves of Dex +2
-Cloak of Resistance +2
-small supply of Smokesticks and Tanglefoot Bags
Pros:
-Excellent skill monkey/party face - disguise, bluff, sleight of hand, etc. (plus a Chaotic Neutral alignment) lead to a lot of fun social options, and your disable device is off the charts
-Awesome scouting/stealth - with a +14 to stealth (5 dex, class skill, 6 ranks) and Hide in Plain Sight from Shadowdancer, I'm nigh impossible to detect
-Tons of ranks in acrobatics and high dex make it really easy to safely get where you want on the battlefield
-Occasionally get two sneak attacks for ridiculous quantities of damage
Cons:
-Very hard to get two sneak attacks
-Fragile - 20 AC and 34 hit points at level 6 mean I have to frequently withdraw from combat early; if you're going to be a melee fighter, invest in Con
-Against enemies immune to sneak attacks (undead, constructs, rogues, mages that can give themselves concealment) there's very little you can do. Using the Wand of Grease to grease people's swords is fun, but at early levels it's hard to get Use Magical Device to work, and at higher levels they make their DC 11 reflex checks easily.
Here's my advice: don't try to be a damage dealer. You can't dish out or tank damage like a Paladin, Fighter, or Barbarian. What you can do is harass enemies, disable the squishy targets in the back, and occasionally get in a sweet sneak attack. If I were to go at it again, I think I'd equip my rogue with a rapier and a whip (and weapon finesse, of course) and go for Improved Trip. You'll be able to get to the back and poke your rapier where it hurts into the squishy casters, trip multiple targets in one turn, and be an awesome Indiana Jones/sky pirate style dashing rogue. In later levels you might have to figure something out, and you won't be useful in every combat, but that's OK.
PS: More than 14 int really isn't necessary; 13 could work too, if you just want Combat Expertise.
Combat Expertise is of questionable use to a Rogue. The thing is, you have only a medium Base Attack Bonus, and your class doesn't offer a lot of ways to boost it. This means 1) You don't have the attack bonus to spend on Combat Expertise and 2) You will have trouble successfully tripping enemies (especially at high level, where many enemies become very big and very strong). If you want defense, take talents like Offensive Defense. If you want to trip enemies, you might consider a different class.
Spring Attack and Improved Feint are both options, but I wouldn't recommend taking both. They each require less useful prerequisites, and can't be used together. They also both suffer as you get more attacks. Once you have +6/+1 Base Attack Bonus, they are of questionable value. If you mix in haste or a speed weapon, you are crippling your damage output. Of the two, Spring Attack is probably more useful, allowing a bit of skirmishing for the Rogue who doesn't make combat his sole focus.
Also, Ninja is amazing. It is an alternate class from Ultimate Combat. It has a ki pool, which is great, and offers many "Ninja Tricks" that are among the most powerful talents available. I'd highly recommend it.
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This is probably going to start an argument with a bunch of people who love the rogue very much (I'm sorry), but I would avoid that class altogether. You have access to the APG and UC, and there are better skill-monkey classes to choose from. Cheapy suggested the bard, and it's a great choice. If you want a rogue-like bard, I would go for the archaeologist, who is basically a rogue with bard magic and luck bonuses to his attacks or skill checks. The ninja is also a better choice; even the core rulebook bard who, as Cheapy says, gets a great number of skills on top of all the buffs he provides for his party, is superior.
If you must go rogue, I would suggest high strength, scout archetype with a longspear. *Sigh*
Cons:
-Very hard to get two sneak attacks
-Fragile - 20 AC and 34 hit points at level 6 mean I have to frequently withdraw from combat early; if you're going to be a melee fighter, invest in Con
-Against enemies immune to sneak attacks (undead, constructs, rogues, mages that can give themselves concealment) there's very little you can do. Using the Wand of Grease to grease people's swords is fun, but at early levels it's hard to get Use Magical Device to work, and at higher levels they make their DC 11 reflex checks easily.
Just caught this. Undead are not immune to sneak attacks in pathfinder unless they're incorporeal.
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Click my name.
I am a rogue who can do other things.
My focus is on the Bluff skill:
- bluff to distract, allowing you to hide in combat (and SA).
- bluff to feint, allowing a SA.
- bluff for social dominance as a con artist.
- bluff to deliver hidden messages, such as the order to "attack" without victims knowing until it's too late.
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My example PFSP character I'm working on making.
Half Elf (Favored Classes : Ranger, & Rogue : All of it to skills)
Ranger/Rogue(Bandit)6
Level progressing: Ranger 1-2 Rogue 1-2 Ranger 3-6 Rogue 3+
Str 15 (+2 Human)= 17 (+ all level up points here.)
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 7
Traits : Reactionary (+2 trait bonus to initiative.)
Freedom Fighter (You gain a +1 trait bonus on Stealth checks and a +1 trait bonus on attack rollsmade during the surprise round.)
Skills : Max out Acrobatics, Disable Device, Linguistics, Perception, Stealth, & Survival. You will have a few more skill points for some other skills.
Feet's
Half Elf adaptability : Skill Focus : Perception
1st : Two Weapon Fighting
Combat style (Two Weapon Fighting): Double Slice
3rd : Weapon Focus : Kukri
Rogue Talent : Fast Stealth
5th : Improved Initiative
7th : Step Up
Combat style : Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9th : Improved Critical : Kukri
Rogue Talent : Surprise Attack
11Th : Following Step
Rogue Talent : Combat Trick : Step Up and Strike
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The only reason to ever use the Step Up chain is on casters. So they can not take a 5ft step to cast on you. If for some reason a melee is taking a 5ft step to take a potion of healing. Your better off following them for the same reason you can do more damage then the potion will heal. And stand a good chance of drooping them. If there not hurt and there moving let them with out using the step up feet. Simple basic tactics can go along way to making things effective or not.
So what your saying is every thing is used in PFSP. Thats true the problem is no one character can do every thing.
Being more ranger then rogue. Is only because of the level cap of 12. If you go higher you keap taking levels of rogue and leave ranger at 6. So if the level cap was 20 it wold be Ranger6/Rogue(Bandit)14. But you need the 6 ranger for the improved two weapon fighting. The reason for not going higher and getting Greater Two Weapon fighting. The Rogue has a problem hitting, but has extra damage from sneak attack. So the goal is to hit first. The 3rd attack is at a -10, two weapon fighting -2 = -12 to hit on the 3rd off hand attack. I can tell you this dose not hit very often and no reason to pick it up. Verses ganing the 2D6 sneak attack damage from rogue. I will take the exta damage every time. When compared to a to hit roll that will not hit very offten.
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Keep in mind, and this should go for every character you ever make. The name of your class is not who your character is. The class rogue in this game is a description of class abilities, no more and no less.
If a ninja's class abilities fit what you want your character to do better than the rogue's, go with it. If someone asks you what your profession is, say what your character thinks of himself as. Chances are most fighters don't call themselves fighters. They may call themselves mercenaries, soldiers, warriors, bandits, bouncers.
This is one of the reasons I suggest urban ranger to many people that want to play a 'rogue'. Act rogueish, be a scoundrel, steal, cheat and lie. Don't pick abilities that you won't enjoy because you want to write 'rogue' at the top of your character sheet.
Short version: Role-play your character, not his class.
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I'm honestly not the best role-player anyway. I'm much better at it when I'm the GM and I have an NPC's stat block in front of me. I've never liked the idea, however, that a barbarian can only be played as a barbarian, or that a rogue can only be played as a rogue, etc. Granted, some classes like clerics and paladins fall more heavily into playing out their name, but to make a rogueish character? A fighter, bard, ranger, barbarian, cavalier (and the list goes on) could all be rogueish. If you're taking it for trap-finding the urban ranger is where you want to be. If you want to pick locks try out the sandman bard or the archaeologist. If someone bugs you about it, take a crayon and write 'rogue' at the top of your character sheet. :)
I think the Urban Ranger is actually a better rogue then a Rogue. True he has 2 fewer skills, but with bonus from favored enemy and favored community he often ends up with a higher roll. He is also way better in combat. You can also take the trapper Archetype as well and actually be able to set traps as well as disarm them.
The Archeologist Bard is also extremely good.
The Rogue is really a poor class as there is almost nothing he can do that cannot be done better by another class.
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A lot of people at my PFS group know me as the person who hates rogues. Embarrassingly enough, the only character I've killed in PFS so far has been a rogue (a new player too, at his second game >_<). I don't think it was my fault, as he'd dumped his constitution to 9 and tried to crawl away while prone and next to the BBEG, at 0hp, but I still feel pretty bad about it. That has nothing to do with the rogue being a bad class, but I do believe that it isn't a good one. It has a few abilities that look really good at first (the main offender being sneak attack), but just don't work in practise. Compare that with favoured enemy, favoured terrain, and bonus feats with no need to meet prerequisites on top of full BAB and nearly as many skills, and the rogue looks pretty poor.
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A good friend of mine is playing the "Knife Master" rogue archetype and is freaking PWNING with it. Yes, you give up trap finding, but unless your GM throws them at you every 15 feet or so, its not really that big of a deal IMHO.
Plus, there is something just very cool about being a "dirty knife fighter".
Check it out.
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I wasn't impressed with it. It's an extra 1 damage on average per sneak attack die, so 4.5 per die instead of 3.5. Yes, better, but you still have to get into sneak attack position, and playing a vivisectionist, it's not easy.
That's actually another problem with rogues: they can't hold onto their class abilities. Every book that comes out gives away another one. First they lost trapfinding in the APG, and in Ultimate Magic the Vivisectionist stole sneak attack at full rogue progression. The archaeologist is really the final nail in the coffin.
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The difference is in the point buy. Going two weapon fighting as a rogue you need the Dex for the feet. Using the Ranger you can skip the dex and go for high str. Keeping the dex high enough to be useful but not focusing on it.
Bandit Archetype fixes alot of the problems with geting in sneak attack with this one ability. You can not full attack with it but it will let you get in place and attack them in the supprise round.
Ambush (Ex): At 4th level, a bandit becomes fully
practiced in the art of ambushing. When she acts in the
surprise round, she can take a move action, standard action,
and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move
or standard action. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
At level 12 what you end up with is.
Ranger6/Rogue6
Str 20 (+6 Item) = 26(+8)
Dex 16 (+3)
Con 14 (+2)
Int 10
Wis 12 (+4 Item) = 16(+3)
Cha 7 (-2)
BAB 10
Fort 9
Ref 13
Will 5
Duel Wielding Kiri +2
18/18/13/13 Damage 1D4+10 Crit 15-20/X2
Sneak Attack 3D6 (You give up Three dice of sneak attack damage. To gain bonus damage (Your Str mod) that applies all the time. That is the real difference when you use Ranger to get the ability to use two weapon fighting.)
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Two-Weapon Fighting is awful for skirmishing though, because you need to be right up close. A skirmishing build should use a reach weapon like a longspear and the lunge feat. However, no rogue should ever expect to consistently pull off big damage. The ranger does have big damage, and he has nearly the same skill set as the rogue with the addition of the urban ranger archetype.
Two-Weapon Fighting is awful for skirmishing though, because you need to be right up close. A skirmishing build should use a reach weapon like a longspear and the lunge feat. However, no rogue should ever expect to consistently pull off big damage. The ranger does have big damage, and he has nearly the same skill set as the rogue with the addition of the urban ranger archetype.
Scout archetype using Charging Hurler may make a better skirmisher than using a longspear. Maybe take EWP (rope dart) just to avoid carrying a bunch of throwing weapons.
Another rogue option would be to take the thug and bandit archetypes, take a 1-level dip into gunslinger w/ mysterious stranger archetype (to avoid MAD), and focus on skirmishing with guns vs touch AC plus some social skill use. Feats - Dodge, Mobility, Leaping Shot Deed, Two-Weapon Fighting. Stand Up rogue talent. If a 3-level dip was taken along with the Underhanded rogue talent and Quick Draw feat, max damage sneak shots could be done with a concealed pistol in surprise rounds.
(Edit: The gun approach has the same issue as most ranged rogues of needing ways to deny opponents their Dex bonus, of course.)
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I would try out archaeologist. You could make a good one that still acted like a thief or a skirmisher. The luck bonus they can get to their attacks stacks with another bard's performance, and they benefit from bard casting. Add to that better weapon proficiency and the ability to disarm traps like a rogue (along with access to the Trap Spotter talent) and you have what the rogue should have been to begin with.
One specific feat to grab is lingering performance. It will triple the amount of archaeologist's luck you can make use of.
One specific feat to grab is lingering performance. It will triple the amount of archaeologist's luck you can make use of.
So at 17th level you get +4 to all attack rolls, saves, skill checks and weapon damage for - I don't know - 30+ rounds, on top of all your other bonuses. You realize, of course, that's pretty broken....
What is really great for a rogue is "gang up".
Only two allies have to threaten a foe so you count flanking him.
Having some guys with reach weapons or a threatening archer is great then.
Using a reach weapon yourself is also good then, you stay out of trouble that way. Whips are finesseble and with the whip mastery feat chain really nice.
What is great in the ninja are vanishing trick and invisible blade to make SA consistently. But you can get that with a rogue too..
To improve your damage the moonlight stalker feat chain is nice, combine it with a lesser claok of displacment, you always have concealment to hide then.
Combining that with spring attack is also nice.
Because you could just get an agile weapon. Also rogues themselves are a trap.
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Weapon Finesse is a trap feat because you're spending a feat to do less damage. Agile weapons are also a trap in my opinion, because you're spending a +1 just to do the same damage as a strength weapon.
Rogues themselves are indeed a trap, and for the last time I think you should play an archaeologist bard instead. :)
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As one of his players, I cherish Mergy’s grasp of the rules and his kindness in helping me with my character generation. However, I do have my differences with him.
I prefer Guide to Urban Ranger (or any other flavour of Ranger.) My Urban Ranger took Undead as his favoured enemy but has yet to meet any after four PFS sessions. My Guide is always effective against the BBEG. (All this is anecdotal.)
I recently looked at Knife Master with Mergy. He felt that I made a surprisingly good case for it. Today, however, I feel that it is a trap and that perhaps a Swashbuckler with Dervish Dance might do more damage.
I am only doing PFS now, so I only plan ahead to 12th level. I suspect one plans differently for PFS than would be the case for an Adventure Path. To keep up with full magic users, AP players should dip as little as possible. In PFS, one is less likely to be punished for multiclassing.
For PFS at least, there is no harm in taking up to four levels of Rogue.
thanks,
Kodger
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Hey Kodger, thanks.
I do very much like the guide as well, but for the purpose of reproducing a rogue's abilities the urban ranger does a better job. For PFS, however, the guide is amazing, because there is never a need to wonder if you'll be able to use your class abilities.
Swashbuckler has some good things going for it, and Dervish Dance does improve Weapon Finesse, although I'll never be a fan of the feat without a very good reason to take it.
Weapon Finesse is a trap feat because you're spending a feat to do less damage. Agile weapons are also a trap in my opinion, because you're spending a +1 just to do the same damage as a strength weapon.
Rogues themselves are indeed a trap, and for the last time I think you should play an archaeologist bard instead. :)
I started reading about it. More to come :)
I'm still disappointed, can't believe the Rogue class is so meh.
Remember, your character can be a rogue without a single level in the rogue class.
I forgot to ask, what mistakes do you feel you made with your ranger?
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Mergy,
The only mistake I have made with my Guide was to take Cad at third level rather than second. A Guide's eleventh level ability, Inspired Moment, looks like a mini-capstone. This is the character I want to take to twelfth level.
I like to play swashbuckling finesse fighters. Thus, a Rogue is good choice, being acrobatic and getting sneak attacks' whose frequency can be improved via Improved Feint. But I'm reluctant to take more than eight levels of Rogue.
thanks,
Kodger
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Weapon Finesse is a trap feat because you're spending a feat to do less damage. Agile weapons are also a trap in my opinion, because you're spending a +1 just to do the same damage as a strength weapon.
Done right, you have more attacks and much higher AC than the typical all-strength Power Attacking lunkhead.
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That ranger is fragile because you started him with a constitution of 10. Constitution is the only stat that is important for every single class, and I've me many people that don't give it the attention it deserves. With a 20 point-buy I nearly always give my characters a constitution of 14; at the very least I'll buy a 12.
A bard has nearly as many skills as a rogue, and the addition of spells will provide more utility, not less. You're right, however, that a rogue is a simpler class than a bard. If you decide to make a bard, make a post asking for advice and I'm sure you'll get a lot of information to help you along.
Mike, weapon finesse 'done right' (I'm assuming you mean with two-weapon fighting and agile weapons?) takes a long time to succeed, and while your AC may be a few points higher, your damage will not, on average, be comparable. Full attacks are much more difficult to pull off than single power attacks, and the fact that a character will likely only get his first agile weapon after level 5 means you've got a lot of sucking to look forward to.
Dervish dance will almost equal your 'all-strength power attacking lunkhead in damage', but it costs an extra two feats.
I may start a topic for the Bard. I guess my friend just failed with his, it doesn't mean the class is bad!
I really don't understand the fuss about Weapon Finesse vs damage done. Assuming I start with 18 Dex, the +4 will go on my dmg roll right? Plus, I don't see TWF as a viable option for the Rogue, since you mostly want to wait for another melee to attack a mob first, then go in the do Sneak Atk - you don't want to wait there and get hit in the face imo.
Weapon Finesse uses your Dex mod for attack rolls, not damage. You need to pick up the Dervish Dance feat or invest in agile weapons to add Dex to damage.