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usually enemies -should- hit you for at least 2 rounds (bar the ones that are actively going for the weakest member in the group, such as animal predators) and honestly, if an enemy ignores you, and you have twf +shield feats, thats a fair bit of damage coming out.
on another note, animated shield allows you to two hand your weapon, while still getting a free bash attack per round (that one magical shield thing..)
on another nother note, I have been with someone who went pure tank, and when the enemies stopped targeting him, he began using spells such as holy shield (gave squishies a +5-9ish shield ac boost) shield other and other spells. He was able to tank for others thanks to these. What are your thoughts on this type of "tank". its limited in use with spells. but paired with sacred shield and or other archetypes it may work.
I like the War (tactics) domain for the WEAPON MASTER power.
usually enemies -should- hit you for at least 2 rounds (bar the ones that are actively going for the weakest member in the group, such as animal predators) and honestly, if an enemy ignores you, and you have twf +shield feats, thats a fair bit of damage coming out.
on another note, animated shield allows you to two hand your weapon, while still getting a free bash attack per round (that one magical shield thing..)
on another nother note, I have been with someone who went pure tank, and when the enemies stopped targeting him, he began using spells such as holy shield (gave squishies a +5-9ish shield ac boost) shield other and other spells. He was able to tank for others thanks to these. What are your thoughts on this type of "tank". its limited in use with spells. but paired with sacred shield and or other archetypes it may work.
Two-weapon fighting is feat intensive enough for a paladin without adding in shield feats as well. If you're looking to effectively two-weapon fight plus fight with your shield, you want to be a fighter, not a paladin. The animated shield, by itself does not shield bash; you're thinking of the belligerent shield.
When enemies stop targeting you, if they leave you completely alone without you making them do so (typically by intimidating them), your GM is playing your foes poorly. Aside from that, if they're busy swarming you and they just can't hit you (but they have you trapped between them), you're expending a standard action to cast Holy Shield, but you're only giving them your +3 bonus with that belligerent shield. Shield Other expends a standard action to give a +1 deflection bonus to an ally; hardly action economical. Tactical Formation would be a better choice, since you can affect multiple targets and give them a +2 deflection bonus, but it limits their movement. Were there other spells that you wanted to consider?
When combining these limited tactics with Sacred Shield, you don't gain much benefit at all until 11th level. Your allies take half damage from the target of your smite only if they're pretty much within reach of your target, provided that your target is adjacent to you, since your Bastion of Good ability only works out to 10' prior to level 11. Problem is, you just gave up your offensive aspect of Smite Evil for this limited protection. At level 11, it increases to 20', which allows for more tactical positioning, but you just gave up your Aura of Justice. Three words... Not worth it.
Unless, of course, you're playing a purely defensive paladin (like a tank and/or healer that doesn't worry one bit about offense), in which case, it's not a half-bad exchange... Once you hit level 11, that is. However, there's no longer much point in going with a two-weapon fighting paladin, since you gave up the single most effective offensive benefit you have. You'd be better off concentrating on defensive feats to help you take hits and/or feats that improve your ability to heal.
Can it work? It's valid, if that's what you're asking. Is it tactically sound? Depends on the party you're in. In most situations, I would say, "No."
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I am finally reworking the Guide. It's going to be a while yet, but I could use some eyes on it to help me to find the formatting, spelling and grammatical errors. I do plan to include the following elements in the update:
- The Hospitaler Build (with thanks to FangDragon; though I think I'm going to call it the Combat Medic Build.)
- Greater details from Blood of Angels, including more detail on Aasimars, Fey Foundling, and other elements.
- Removal of the suggestion to dip other classes, as I don't write guides for gestalt characters.
Any assistance that the users here can offer to those ends would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Some insight on Unsanctioned Knowledge, and other means of expanding the spell list.
In fact, the entire section on spells could use some love, Oaths, Sacred Servant, and the aforementioned feat can all greatly add to the paladin's repertoire of resources and can increase self-sufficiency.
A paladin taking Sacred Servant with Travel Domain gains access to flight and a +10 movement speed, combine it with Oath of Vengeance and it basically negates the (seemingly) only downside of sacred servant.
I would also like to see you thoughts on Oath Against the Wyrm. Myself, while I find it's class abilities to be situational (dragonbane, and evasion against breath weapons) I do find as far as the Oaths go, the spell list is by far the best and makes it worth considering over Oath of Vengeance.
There have been a lot of feats released since I first read your guide, and I feel that some of the ones you have may fall lower on your rating scale compared to the newer options. Particular story feats, and access to new traits from Ultimate Campaign strike me in particular.
I also would like to see your impressions on Intimidate builds, as they can be very effective, remember: Lawful Good doesn't always mean Lawful Nice.
Some insight on Unsanctioned Knowledge, and other means of expanding the spell list.
In fact, the entire section on spells could use some love, Oaths, Sacred Servant, and the aforementioned feat can all greatly add to the paladin's repertoire of resources and can increase self-sufficiency.
A paladin taking Sacred Servant with Travel Domain gains access to flight and a +10 movement speed, combine it with Oath of Vengeance and it basically negates the (seemingly) only downside of sacred servant.
I would also like to see you thoughts on Oath Against the Wyrm. Myself, while I find it's class abilities to be situational (dragonbane, and evasion against breath weapons) I do find as far as the Oaths go, the spell list is by far the best and makes it worth considering over Oath of Vengeance.
There have been a lot of feats released since I first read your guide, and I feel that some of the ones you have may fall lower on your rating scale compared to the newer options. Particular story feats, and access to new traits from Ultimate Campaign strike me in particular.
I also would like to see your impressions on Intimidate builds, as they can be very effective, remember: Lawful Good doesn't always mean Lawful Nice.
Thank you for your input on the Guide.
I'm going to work in reverse order here. I have no plans for demonstrating Intimidate builds. They are an auxiliary build; you don't just Intimidate and then wander around when everything has been frightened off. Besides, most of the feats available let you make Intimidate checks as either a free, immediate or move action when you're doing something else (usually attacking), or they give circumstantial bonuses to Intimidate that cannot consistently be relied upon.
I generally don't rely upon advising others to take Story feats; those are largely up to the GM to work out with the player. Going back to Intimidate feats for a moment, looking at Dynasty Founder, you have to have lived in the chosen city for at least 1 year or be the heir of a former city leader. Not a hardship, but not something you can just declare to your GM in order to take the feat. While some Story feats are accessible if you take specific background traits, that's still something you work out with the GM, and therefore, not strictly left up to your own choosing. That, and I don't see most of the 48 extant Story feats as being significantly superior to standard feats to bloat the Guide further via their recommendation.
Here are my thoughts on Oath against the Wyrm; it works reasonably well, but its real benefits are against dragons, and unless you're running about in a heavy dragon campaign, you're not really gaining anything of significance. The oath spells aren't so "oh my goodness, I have to have them!" that I would recommend taking the Oath against the Wyrm. Gaining access to fly and stoneskin aren't worth replacing Holy Champion, particularly given the existence of your (seemingly) all-time favourite feat (and other reasons, which I will mention below).
Sacred Servant with the Travel Domain isn't a bad combination to have, but the real downside to Sacred Servant is the loss of the Aura of Resolve, which is a great defensive ability. You don't lose the Aura of Justice.
As for the section on spells, I'm not going to bloat the guide to include every possible cleric, bard, inquisitor or oracle spell you can gain through Sacred Servant (for cleric spells) or Unsanctioned Knowledge (which isn't half as good as you peddle to others since Intelligence is a low-priority stat required by Unsanctioned Knowledge and it eats a feat to basically give you what you could get by buying a wand - which you could use before level 13 where you'd get to have your 4th level spell with Unsanctioned Knowledge). If you really want to see what spells are worth taking, I highly recommend going to the appropriate guide for that character class, or Caleb T. Gordon's spell guide.
Thanks for you assistance in helping me to find formatting, grammar and spelling errors in the Guide.
Best wishes!
I find I really enjoy Cornugon Smash, since handing out the Shaken condition essentially gains you +2 AC, and Dazzling Display gains the entire party +2 AC, and boosts your casters DCs. Intimidate is one of the most useful skills to the paladin, and I find that using it along with Diplomacy, and some love in Spellcraft, Sense Motive, and a couple Knowledges really helps the class out. For that reason, I always seem to end up with enough INT for Unsanctioned Knowledge anyway.
Going over every spell possible isn't really that important, but making a mention of the optimal ones I can't see as being too bad. Alter Self, Haste, Displacement, Bladed Dash, Blur, Divine Power. All of these spells can prove to be really useful to the paladin, and can add some autonomy in that your wizard no longer has to be the one to cast it on you, saving him a turn of buffing, and buying him a turn of battlefield controlling.
I find I really enjoy Cornugon Smash, since handing out the Shaken condition essentially gains you +2 AC, and Dazzling Display gains the entire party +2 AC, and boosts your casters DCs. Intimidate is one of the most useful skills to the paladin, and I find that using it along with Diplomacy, and some love in Spellcraft, Sense Motive, and a couple Knowledges really helps the class out. For that reason, I always seem to end up with enough INT for Unsanctioned Knowledge anyway.
Cornugon Smash and Dazzling Display are already recommended in the Guide. Intimidate is also suggested (in fact, recommended), along with Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Spellcraft and a couple of Knowledge skills. Are you sure you've read my Guide? You can find skill recommendations on page 23.
Going over every spell possible isn't really that important, but making a mention of the optimal ones I can't see as being too bad. Alter Self, Haste, Displacement, Bladed Dash, Blur, Divine Power. All of these spells can prove to be really useful to the paladin, and can add some autonomy in that your wizard no longer has to be the one to cast it on you, saving him a turn of buffing, and buying him a turn of battlefield controlling.
Wands. They save your wizard a turn of buffing and buy him a turn of battlefield controlling, and they can be used by practically anybody. Alter Self, Haste, Displacement, Bladed Dash, Blur and Divine Power are all standard-action spells (that you can find in other Guides, if you're looking; my Guide is not a "if someone could buff you with any spell, which spell would you choose?" Guide; that's bloat that isn't directly related to the class and therefore doesn't belong in there), and since using your wand requires a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity (which casting a spell does), it's a more economical use of your feats and your actions. Granted, it requires an investment in Use Magic Device, but that investment doesn't need to be yours unless you plan on going solo, so it could be even more economical in that another party member (like a Rogue) can do it for you. Of course, if you want to invest in Use Magic Device, you can do it for yourself.
Unsanctioned Knowledge is sub-optimal, and has been the entire time.
Generally speaking, I include things in the Guide when I recommend that you should take them, not when you should avoid them. The Guide would be five times larger if I included all of the pitfalls to avoid. That's what discussion threads are for. :-)
Best wishes!
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So, in your mind, the pluses to Divine Hunter for the archer paladin outweigh the minuses. I created one at level 10, seems be fun to play. Haven't encountered much yet, mostly in the RP stages. Will save is 13, but that may be due to 11 in Wisdom...
I think my next paladin will be more 2 handed castigator.
Again, thanks for the guide, I've read it a few times.
So, in your mind, the pluses to Divine Hunter for the archer paladin outweigh the minuses. I created one at level 10, seems be fun to play. Haven't encountered much yet, mostly in the RP stages. Will save is 13, but that may be due to 11 in Wisdom...
I think my next paladin will be more 2 handed castigator.
Again, thanks for the guide, I've read it a few times.
First, thanks for your comments. Here's how the Divine Hunter plays out.
Level 1: Precise Shot Feat versus Heavy Armour Proficiency Feat
As an archer Paladin, you're probably going to be avoiding the heavy armour in the first place because of the Dexterity caps and the armour check penalties. Precise Shot is a prerequisite feat for other feats you'll likely want to acquire, and a very good feat to have in the first place. This is an easy call.
Level 3: Aura of Courage versus Shared Precision
Immunity to Fear is a hefty defensive bonus, and giving the bonus to nearby allies to their saves versus fear is also pretty good. However, as an archer, you want to stay away from the fray as much as possible. It's not that you cannot fight in close quarters, it's that your abilities are best applied at range. Since you're likely to stick back from the fight, giving Precise Shot to other archers that you may work with is a lovely benefit.
Level 5: Divine Bond versus Divine Bond
This is an even swap, really. As an archer, you'll want the Divine Hunter version of Divine Bond, unless you want a mount. Mounted archery can be cool, too, but then you'll have to invest in mounted combat feats to get it up to speed.
Level 6: Mercy versus Distant Mercy
There's not a huge handicap here. The Staggered Mercy is really the only one worth getting here, and while it's a hefty handicap that you want to cure, you can still pick it up with your 9th level Mercy pick, and the 9th level picks are not as good anyway. Distant Mercy can let you use your Lay on Hands at a distance of anywhere between 30 (at 6th level) and 100 (at 20th level) feet. Granted, you have to use two uses of Lay on Hands, but it's got superior range to the Word of Healing feat, so you can heal from range while you're busy sniping your foes from afar.
Level 8: Aura of Resolve versus Aura of Care
The Aura of Resolve is definitely better here; immunity to Charm and the ability to give your nearby allies bonuses to it definitely beats being able to shoot past your allies without having them provide a cover bonus to your enemies in close-quarters combat. Still, it's not a horrible ability to have.
Level 11: Aura of Justice versus Hunter's Blessing
You can't give your allies your smite with Hunter's Blessing like you can with the Aura of Justice, but you can give them Deadly Aim, Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot to help them with their ranged attacks as well. Useful when working with a cohort of archers, but they're probably going to have some of those feats already. Personally, I prefer the Aura of Justice.
Level 14: Aura of Righteousness versus Righteous Hunter
So you get an offensive ability instead of a defensive one which applies to your nearby allies as well. It's that Damage Reduction that you get with the Aura of Righteousness that's the sticking point, though making your arrows bypass any damage reduction vulnerable to good (which is not completely uncommon) isn't completely shabby.
So, it's worth considering; certainly valid for ranged play.
Please dedicate some love to Sacred Servants. I know you mentioned in one of the earlier post that you think the Rage domain isn't worth it, but please give it some more thought.
Thanks for your input on the Guide!
I can assure you, I've given it more thought.
I've played both a normal pally and a rage-domain sacred servant, and I can say without a doubt that the raging pally is insanely more powerful than the normal paladin at high-level play (level 11+). Between level 1-10, they're roughly the same, though it does matter how the DM allows the Celestial Ally to play. At level 11+, the celestial ally doesn't even matter, as the rager will just obliterate everything. Losing Aura of Resolve hurts a bit, but I'm not sure why you rate that ability so highly, given all the things you get from Sacred Servant. In any case, pleaaase take a look at the Sacred Servant archetype.
Please feel free to submit your build for consideration.
Also, items and spell selections could use an update. I'm curious to hear why you think Unsanctioned Knowledge is underwhelming? I've taken it once, and I liked how I can get Magic Vestment instead of relying on a cleric, and I can get Mirror Image for that one "oh crap" fight. I tend to choose spells that are situational (or cast in the morning).
I wrote about Unsanctioned Knowledge previously in this thread. You can see my detailed evaluation there, but it essentially boils down to one word: wands.
Best wishes!
@Bodhizen This is Forthepie, this is actually my divine hunter. I want to thank you for your detailed answer. Thank you! It really lets me know what I have to give up, but what I get in return. It also does give me some idea of how to RP the divine hunter. He's not just an archer, but a gifted ranged attacker who can buff his allies too. Plus it's a nice change of pace to the sword wielding paladin. Too bad the sword/board paladin isn't awesome.
Again, thank you for your time. I look forward to reading the new and improved version.
A few nice even if specifics feat I found recently while building a paladin for Wrath of the Righteous:
- Death or Glory (awesome flavor)
- Vengeance
- Dreadful Carnage (Mythic Dreadful Carnage is pretty awesome)
Also will you add Mythic related things to your guide? like Path, Mythic Feats etc.
I am finding that Mythic Vital strike is extremely powerful on a paladin, typically.
Also some details on some nice traits for each type of build would be nice.
Cheers
A few nice even if specifics feat I found recently while building a paladin for Wrath of the Righteous:
- Death or Glory (awesome flavor)
- Vengeance
- Dreadful Carnage (Mythic Dreadful Carnage is pretty awesome)Also will you add Mythic related things to your guide? like Path, Mythic Feats etc.
I am finding that Mythic Vital strike is extremely powerful on a paladin, typically.
Also some details on some nice traits for each type of build would be nice.
Cheers
I'm really not looking forward to going through Mythic Paths and Feats on top of it all, as there's a fair amount to parse through, though I have considered it. I've spent a few hours preparing the combat medic build before I move on to the Antipaladin section for restructuring. It's a pain in the tail to recreate the whole thing from scratch, so... If you're willing to lend a hand in the review department, I'd love the assist. PM would work out just fine for now.
Death or Glory, Vengeance and Dreadful Carnage... Going to check them out before I'm finished with the non-mythic material.
Thank you very much!
(STR Ranger here)
This is my Tactics domain Sacred Servant.
Currently playing in the Council Of Thieves AP.
We are almost finished Walcourt (DM has had to up encounter levels I believe we're are above recommended AP level)
So that is a consideration to what I write.
Daniel Arrisen is not what I would call 100% optimal. But he STILL trashes encounters.
For instance he has UNSANCTIONED KNOWLEDGE
for
1-Delusional Pride
2-Instrument of Agony
3-Slow
4th spell not selected yet.
Obviously the spells selected were for adding some De buffing capacity. It has worked well. Currently 1 and 2 are not prepped because without giving too much away, we are not encountering valid targets for the first 2 spells.
Now he took the War (tactics) domain,
Which with his 8 Wis only works 2/day but letting our Group's witch go first can be quite conclusive.
The real Icing has been the WEAPON MASTER power. Because Daniel is a tripper (which again, until now has been freaking awesome), he pretty much qualifies for any combat feat I have needed as a swift action.
Cleave,
Gtr Trip
Improved Overrun
Improved Bull rush
Furious Focus have been my most common uses.
Now I Went With half orc because he was going to be a Conrugan Smash build (but the DM feels it's overpowered)
As for the Sacred Servant class abilities.
Being able to summon a Hound Archon with a task like 'Assist us in combat to bring down the council for 1 week' has been sweet having a at will teleporting, magic circle vs evil ally on tap. (I carry an armored coat and use the magic vestment domain spell to up his AC)
When we get into more outdoors type areas I'm going to see if he'll allow summoning a 1/2 celestial Griffon with a task 'serve me as a mount for 1 week'.
I have a set of +2 Equestrian Fullplate for that.
The sacred bond I just use for extra LOH (oath of Vengeance for more smites)
Now with Decent AC and Fey Foundling, most of the time my +1 Quickdraw Shield remains on my back and I just 2 hand my Longsword.
Daniel smites and soaks damage like a champ.
Could he be better?
Probably.
If he were to remain Half-Orc,
I would have used Unsanctioned Knowledge to get Vanish, Blur and Gtr Invisibility and went the MOONLIGHT STALKER chain.
It would make a nice change to try a misdirection based Pally but the DM did not feel a Pally could work that way. Dishonor etc.
Or I did try a version with the Destruction (Rage) subdomain in a one shot.
It destroyed everything.
Worshipped Ragathiel and 2 handed a +1 Furious Bastard sword.
Nice write up dude.
And sounds like a REALLY nice Melee char.
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The gist of a rage pally build is to take your basic Oath of Vengeance pally build (tiefling with Fey Foundling, or elf or halfling if you'd prefer) using a 2h weapon. Take the traits Fate's Favored (helps with Divine Favor/Power, and Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier) and Magical Knack.
Thanks for your input on the Guide!
It's not exactly the build, but we can work with this. Here are some criticisms to your build.
Sacred Servant will allow the paladin to cast GMW in the morning at higher CL due to Magical Knack and the Sacred Servant ability. This will allow him to save money to put the Furious and Courageous enchants on his weapon instead, giving him a +3 Furious Courageous weapon by level 11 (when he gets Rage). That means when you Rage, now you'll get +6 to your Str and Con, which matches a barbarian of equal level.
Money isn't extremely relevant, but a wand of Greater Magic Weapon costs (at most) 60,000gp. Sure, the Furious & Courageous weapon is much cheaper, but that's not the primary concern. At level 11, your Furious weapon (while raging) gets you a +4 to attack and damage which is, granted, better than the +3 you get from your Divine (Weapon) Bond, but it doesn't scale. You keep that +4 to attack and damage on up through level 20 while your standard paladin's Divine (Weapon) Bond goes up to +6. I will certainly grant you that the additional hit points are valuable, but they're lost first after the rage (which you can compensate for by use of Lay on Hands) and the armour class penalty is unfortunate.
The Furious weapon ability does not increase your Raging benefits to +6 to Strength and Constitution from +4, you just get the +2 weapon enhancement bonus (on top of the weapon's existing properties).
On top of that, you can use LoH to cure your fatigue as a swift action, allowing you to rage cycle all day long if you choose to. All the outsiders you can get from Call Celestial Ally will be able to give you SOME benefits, regardless of how your GM treats it. Even if they're just there as invisible scouts, hey, that's better than nothing. A simple 2HD lantern archon can even give you those 2d6 range touch attacks, and it gets better with the higher HD creatures. Anyone wanting to know more about the outsiders that can be called, look here for a list of outsiders http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pgyc?True-Name-HD-Reference
Call Celestial Ally is certainly worthwhile, but as you point out, how the GM treats your Celestial Ally determines its basic effectiveness.
If you make it to level 13, your Bloodsworn Retribution will benefit from your Courageous weapon. If you take Unsanctioned Knowledge, you can get Dance of a Hundred Cuts to go along with that, which when combined gives you around +6 to +8 to your attacks, damage, saves, and skill checks. Unsanctioned Knowledge also could give you Magic Vestment to go along with GMW in your morning spellcasting.
None of this is specific to the build; any paladin can benefit from this combination of spells. However, as I have pointed out earlier in this discussion, Unsanctioned Knowledge is sub-optimal compared to wands.
At level 15, you can get your first Rage Power, which could give you Superstitious (more morale bonus if you're that paranoid), Raging Vitality (helps mitigate the hp hit if you use Bloodsworn Retribution, along with the usual benefits), or Lesser Celestial Totem (which should give you +15 or +19 to your LoH if you have the Bracers of Merciful Knight).
Raging Vitality is a feat, not a rage power, by the by. However, you can get better healing via feats or even the Hospitaler archetype. The morale bonus could be worthwhile, but I'm not convinced, considering other things you give up.
For all that, you lose out the ability to be immune to charm effects, and give your party +4 vs charms. You also lose the Divine Bond, which is a big loss if you want to have that Brilliant Energy enchantment at your beck and call, but you give up a standard action to get enchantments, vs a free action Rage.
The only thing to keep in mind about the Sacred Servant is that it's meant for mid to high level games. After all, any 2h Oath of Vengeance pally below level 8 is pretty much all the same anyway.
That immunity is a solid defense and the Divine (Weapon) Bond is a pretty solid blow to offense (not just because of the Brilliant Energy enchantment), even when you apply the rage powers.
This build is certainly viable, and a raging paladin provides for some interesting role-play opportunities. However, I am not convinced that it is an optimal use of the paladin, or the sacred servant archetype.
Best wishes!
P.S. STR Ranger: I haven't forgotten about you. I'm looking over your build as well, but it may take me a while to comment as my primary goal is assessment and getting the Guide revised.
Death or Glory, Vengeance and Dreadful Carnage... Going to check them out before I'm finished with the non-mythic material.
Thank you very much!
Death or Glory is best comboed with: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/inheritor-s-smite
Thus avoiding the retaliation.
Dreadful Carnage is for intimidate paladin, and is especially powerful if you can get Mythic Dreadful Carnage but is already real nice just by itself.
Lauraliane,
Thanks for your input! Dreadful Carnage is already recommended in the Guide. Vengeance isn't something that I'm going to include, as Story feats are not specifically left to player-choice. Death or Glory... I'm on the fence about it and need to consider it further.
If you have recommendations as far as Mythic play, I'd be more than happy to look them over. Adding in a section for Mythic play in the guide is going to be a lot of work, so I want to have all of my ducks in a row before I plunge head-first into it. That might mean that it will have to wait for another iteration of the Guide, depending on how much assistance I can get. For now, the primary goal is to get the revised Guide put together.
Best wishes!
Having written all that, my final analysis would be:
Normal paladin: Immunity to charm, gives allies +4 to saves vs charm. Standard action Divine Bond, which provides not only enchantment bonuses, but the versatility of other types of weapon enchantments.
Sacred Servant paladin: Additional daily LoH, and up to +6 CL. The CL is useful for morning daily spells, or use as a standard action during combat, which would be a boon for spells such as Litany of Righteousness, which has SR, so CL matters a lot, and it also gives better GMW access earlier than a normal pally. He also gets 12 HD celestial ally at lvl 12, and 18 HD at lvl 16 which provides great versatility. Most importantly he gets free action +6 str/con and +2 weapon that stacks with GMW, and gets access to a few Rage Powers (+lvl to LoH from Lesser Celestial Totem, etc.).
Greater Magic Weapon access (or Greater Magic Weapon in general) isn't restricted to the Sacred Servant Paladin, and it doesn't get you to the spell any earlier, as the Divine Symbol adds to the caster level of spells that you cast, not to your overall caster level. As with the consideration of any buff spells accessible to paladins, it's a moot point, as it's an "anything you can cast, I can cast too" unless you're using the sub-optimal choice of Unsanctioned Knowledge or using specific spells via any domain choices. However, as the remain level 4 spells or lower, you can still get them on a wand (and depending on how much gold you want to spend, get them at higher caster level than yours), freeing your paladin's spell preparations up for things that you're likely to want to use multiple times per day.
The Sacred Servant has to blow a use of Lay on Hands (which is a good deal of healing energy) to avoid the fatigue from raging (if they choose to avoid the fatigue). Sure, the additional daily Lay on Hands compensates for at least one use, but you could potentially blow through more, and it detracts from your caster level boost in whatever combat that you've prepared for, so it's a "choose one or the other", chosen at the time of your standard action to activate it. The +6 Strength only translates to +3 on attack and damage rolls, which is weaker than the Divine (Weapon) Bond's benefits.
The non-Sacred Servant paladin can get access to enhanced Lay on Hands, and as previously demonstrated in the thread, any benefits given via spell buffs from spells of level 4 or less are better used via wands (which can have any caster level you can afford or acquire). Caster level doesn't matter as much as you might think, even considering spell resistance. Paladins aren't the best casters, even with your build conditions, and Litany of Righteousness is, for example, more easily defeated by foes that don't understand the language you call down the litany in than by spell resistance.
As we've both agreed, your build is viable, but again, I remain unconvinced that it's optimal.
Coinshot Colton,
I very much appreciate your input! I do, unfortunately, remain unconvinced, and I can guarantee you that I'm not overlooking action economy in the build differences, nor am I forgetting anything in the enchantments on weapons.
As for Sacred Servant getting access to higher enchantments faster, I think it's an issue in how you're wording your statement; you are completely correct that sacred servants can potentially gain higher-level enchantment bonuses that are variably affected by caster level. I hope that clears up any confusion in our mutual understanding. Still, access is granted to CL 20 spell effects if you can afford them on a wand. Personally, I think it would be more useful to ignore 4th level spells and below if you don't want to negate the argument with the wand factor, which would, unfortunately, discount all paladin spells in their entirety.
Celestial Ally is also a wild-card, as you admitted when you first started talking about it, so we'll set it aside for the purposes of our conversation. It is also important to note that the standard paladin can benefit from morale bonuses via a Courageous weapon, so if they were granted such a morale bonus via any spell or effect (such as your aforementioned Bloodsworn Retribution), it would also apply to the standard paladin (granting an additional +7 to attack and damage, as in the case of the aforementioned Bloodsworn Retribution). As multiple morale bonuses on the same character do not stack, that's the best that either the Sacred Servant paladin could get or the standard paladin could get.
For now, I'm going to leave spells completely out of any further discussion because the sacred servant doesn't cast them any faster, doesn't get any more of them, and doesn't get access to any spells that the standard paladin either couldn't get, or couldn't get on a wand, so it's a moot point to include them in the "build". Therefore, they're not really relevant to a discussion about any builds (and they can override the bonuses that you get from raging anyway, which makes the entire discussion moot, so it's best if we leave them out of it, I think).
Please feel free to submit a build for analysis if you like, and again, I thank you for your input. The theorycraft is fun, but it is distracting me from my work, unfortunately.
Best wishes!
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I'll point out that "oh you can just get it on a wand" is great to say, but keeping up with UMD DCs for non-class spells can be a righteous pain in the tuchus with all the other things you'd like to invest those skill points in (and wasting charges on failed checks means wasted money). it also costs dosh, and at a hilariously high rate if you want anything beyond base CL for them, or metamagic effects built-in (provided they still fall under the 4th level hard cap for wands), and so on.
BUT, if you remain unconvinced, I've given it my best shot! I'd still take this over a normal pally, because I prefer higher accuracy and dmg output, and I'd rather spend my money on other items instead of consumable wands. Spending money for high level consumable wands is not optimal imo, but I guess maybe you and others on the boards see differently.
I'm a tough sell, but I do look into the various factors and attempt to duplicate (or beat) any given build to see how it matches up. I promise that I'm not just messing with you or being stubborn. :)
I'll submit a build, but I'm not sure what you guys use to make your write-ups so well-organized.
Hero Lab. It's not freeware, but it's a fantastic program.
I'll point out that "oh you can just get it on a wand" is great to say, but keeping up with UMD DCs for non-class spells can be a righteous pain in the tuchusI really need to read up on UMD, because I don't even know what the DCs are for using wands that aren't on your spell list, and at higher CL. Also need to read up on how much they cost, because I can't imagine they're cheap.
Well, the UMD DC to use a wand is only 20, regardless of CL, and that's not insurmountable, especially since it's a Charisma-based skill. At level 11, if you invest solidly in it, you're at +14 (assuming a +3 Charisma bonus). Means you only need to role a 6 to succeed. You also get a +2 bonus to activate the wand if you've ever used it before, dropping the role to a 4. Even if you don't invest solidly into Use Magic Device, you can still get to a 10 by investing 5 skill ranks, giving you a 50% chance on a roll to activate it (provided that you've activated it once before). The other great thing about wands is that you don't have to use them.
Best wishes!
Well, the UMD DC to use a wand is only 20, regardless of CL, and that's not insurmountable, especially since it's a Charisma-based skill. At level 11, if you invest solidly in it, you're at +14 (assuming a +3 Charisma bonus). Means you only need to role a 6 to succeed. You also get a +2 bonus to activate the wand if you've ever used it before, dropping the role to a 4. Even if you don't invest solidly into Use Magic Device, you can still get to a 10 by investing 5 skill ranks, giving you a 50% chance on a roll to activate it (provided that you've activated it once before). The other great thing about wands is that you don't have to use them.
Best wishes!
The UMD DCs are easy to hit, sure. But I'm more concerned about the action economy involved in using wands. I have to take an action to draw it, then the action to use it (which is always at least a standard action), then the action again to put the wand away, then another action to get your weapon back out. Unless you are in the business of just fee action dropping your wands on the ground and leaving them there assuming nothing will happen to them, that's a bit of a pain in the ass when it comes to combat spells.
Should the spell you want to cast normally have a casting time less than a standard action, too bad, you need a standard action to use a wand.
If you want to get over the whole wasting actions to get the wand back out, you could use the Quick Draw feat, sure, but I thought the whole point of not taking Unsanctioned Knowledge and using UMD instead was to save yourself a feat. At that point you are just taking a feat that is marginally useful to try and prove a point about another feat that doesn't really exist.
Scaling caster level, and the actions required to use them make wands sub optimal on most combat oriented spells and buff spells. Wands themselves are more useful for utility purposes and healing, and the paladin can already use wands of most of the cure spells without UMD in the first place.
I guess I just don't get how wands invalidate the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat anymore than wands invalidate any spellcasting class in the first place.
I guess I just don't get how wands invalidate the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat anymore than wands invalidate any spellcasting class in the first place.
A: Most spellcasting classes aren't limited to fourth level spells or lower like wands (and paladins) are. Your strawman carries no weight.
B: As I have repeatedly stated, the paladin doesn't have to be the one to use the wand on the paladin, though they can be.C: You can easily get a higher CL on the wand than you can currently cast.
D: You're really not very well-versed on your actions. You can draw or sheathe a weapon (i.e. wand, explicitly) as a move action (unnecessary if point B applies), and you're allowed to hold a two-handed weapon in one hand as a free action. The Quick Draw feat does not apply to wands as per James Jacobs.
E: Most of the spells you advocate acquiring are standard action-cast spells (fly, longstrider, alter self, haste, displacement, bladed dash, blur, divine power, expeditious retreat, wrath, bear's endurance, stoneskin, etc...) that you're likely to want to prepare before combat, not cast mid-combat, as they all (save bladed dash) have durations that will likely last throughout your combat. Spells that you want to cast mid-combat are spells that you can personally prepare. Non-paladin spells that you feel that you must cast in combat are able to be cast via wand as per points B and D.
Thank you for your comments.
Okay, so here's a level 11 Sacred Servant. I'm not sure what you (Bodhizen) see as an "optimal" build, so I've left this pretty open. I only put +1 items below (cloak, ring, amulet), and still have over 20k to spend. Many of the selections are replaceable, such as feats, items, etc. Because I won't rely on UMD for wand usage, I didn't bother putting in skill points in this example. If your build uses it, I'd like to see the spread if possible. I built this with a focus on damage, yet I tried to make it all-around balanced.
The build uses 20pt buy.
I'll check into it. Thanks for showing me the build! Please excuse me if it takes a short amount of time.
Best wishes!
Ok, I understand that the Holy Gun is likely a suboptimal ranged choice. Loss of medium/heavy armor, no Detect Evil, and a radical change to Smite Evil alone probably do it. However, it doesn't really change a lot of features. You get 2 bonus feats, and a free ranged weapon that you can upgrade without a skill check.
The question is, can we somehow make it viable? I do understand that it is more feat-intensive than the Archer Paladin, but let's at least explore the possibility.
Ok, I understand that the Holy Gun is likely a suboptimal ranged choice. Loss of medium/heavy armor, no Detect Evil, and a radical change to Smite Evil alone probably do it. However, it doesn't really change a lot of features. You get 2 bonus feats, and a free ranged weapon that you can upgrade without a skill check.
The question is, can we somehow make it viable? I do understand that it is more feat-intensive than the Archer Paladin, but let's at least explore the possibility.
start the build with 1 in gunslinger (avoid mysterious stranger, since while cha grit is tempting, the loss of quick clear REALLY hurts) or 3 in trench fighter (if allowed).
bam, gun proficiencies (and bonus feats for trench fighter)--the latter also gives you dex to damage and a cover AC bonus. continue with paladin to taste and enjoy being better in pretty much every field compared to a holy gun (smite + touch AC is freakin' MEAN).
So the advice is to just avoid the Holy Gun instead of trying to make it work? Kinda defeats the purpose of the question there. Guess if I got to ask the question, I better be prepared to produce an actual answer myself.
Given that the Holy Gun already gives the Amateur Gunslinger and Gunsmithing feats (which makes the need for levels in Gunslinger kinda moot), we most likely already have the Quick Clear deed as our selected free deed. In the event of multiclassing, it would also mean one could go Holy Gun/Mysterious Stranger without losing that deed.
Let's assume a Human Holy Gun Paladin for this experiment. First level feats most likely should be Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot, Amateur Gunslinger, and Gunsmithing. Regardless of what starting gun you use, you will likely need Rapid Reload. Musket is recommended, though. At 3rd level, you will likely want to have Precise Shot. Note that Smiting Shot is only for a single shot, which is why I didn't recommend Rapid Shot. Grit will be a problem until 14th level unless you took a level in Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger, so Extra Grit may be a necessary feat by 5th level. Deadly Aim is at this point a must for the Holy Gun. You need to make up for the loss of Strength to damage somehow. Take it by level 7 at the latest. Given that firearms possess the highest critical multipliers with a need for natural 20s to perform, it may be better to take Improved Critical over Critical Focus at 9th level.
Stats are fairly easy to figure out. Dexterity will be the highest stat we want, as per an Archer Paladin build. It improves our AC, our to hit, and our ability to shoot first. Always try for a minimum +4 bonus from it. Even though our smiting is altered and not quite available at first level, Charisma is still our second most important stat. At later levels, this gives us more grit to use for our smiting. Intelligence is actually something we may consider to be a higher priority than in an Archer build. This is because we have lost the ability to Detect Evil at will, so skill ranks will have to go into skills that will help us overcome that deficiency. Even a +1 bonus will go a long way every level. Strength is not as valuable in a Holy Gun build due to the fact that firearms don't get to add the stat to damage. You shouldn't consider it a dump stat, but it's not a very high priority. Consider what you might need to haul and if you plan on going into melee before adding to the stat. Constitution will primarily govern your hit points, so never ever dump it. You just don't always have to have a high Con score. Wisdom is still the one dump stat we genuinely have for this. Even if the wording of Amateur Gunslinger would make you think otherwise, you don't really need a positive wisdom score. After all, you're crazy enough to be using a gun as a paladin.
Now to look at equipment. As I said before, you probably want a musket as your first firearm. It only has an initial range increment of 40 ft. as ranged touch, but that's plenty in early level combat. You will want to later get or build a rifle as your primary firearm. With the Distance special ability you can add to it through Divine Bond, you're looking at an initial range increment of 160 ft you can hit things with a ranged touch. Adding the Smiting Shot and Deadly Aim at 8th level, that's a potential 1d10 + 6 + (Cha mod + 2) damage to an Evil Outsider before taking criticals into account. You will most certainly be looking into a Belt of Dexterity +4 at that level. Armor wise, you're looking at Mythril Chain Shirt and only at that. Of course, the bulk of your wealth will always be diverted into your ammunition. Ammo for firearms is notoriously expensive compared to arrows and bolts for regular crossbows.
i was more referring to the fact that the traded abilities for holy gun really hurt it, and plain smite is straight up better than HG's version.
I don't know, there is room for the Holy Gun's Smiting Shot. After all, you can actually use it regardless of creature alignment with gradually reduced effect. I had accidentally miscalculated that 8th level damage possibility. The formula was actually 1d10 + 6 + (Cha mod + 16) damage on Evil Outsiders/Dragons and any Undead at that level. Regular Smite Evil on a non-evil creature? Wasted Smite with no effect. And you can apply the Grit recovery rules to increase the number of times per day you can Smiting Shot. The primary loss appears to be the defensive buff and the effective duration.
Anyway, on to the regular stuff for the guide. I noticed on the optional suggested feats for the Archer Paladin builds that Fast Learner was a solid option for humans. That requires a 13+ Intelligence score to pick up. That would make the Archer Paladin more MAD than you may like.
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Version 2.0 of Bodhi's Guide to the Optimal Paladin and Antipaladin just went live. Please change your bookmarks to reflect its new address.
Thank you for your ongoing support.
Not loading for me... or maybe my computer is just slow....
Not quite sure what to tell you. I currently see 8 other viewers on it, so I know it's loading.
Bear in mind, it's a low-res version of the Guide (like the last one was) because, I think, that's how Google Docs hosts .pdf files.
the colors seem kinda borked, since greens are now grey, and only about 1/3 of the various pic's colors are coming through (i'm not colorblind)
actually makes reading the guide kinda confusing because text that's supposed to be color-highlited is just appearing as normal text.
That was also true of the previous iteration of the Guide. Unfortunately, hosting it via Google Documents renders it to be a low-resolution version of the document. This is a sample of what the Guide looks like in full colour.
The .pdf Guide text remains colour highlighted, although the green comes out as grey, but it's still noticeable.
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Love the new guide, very shiny.
A question: in the combat healer section you say you can take both the sacred servant and hospitaller archetypes. By a strict reading of the rules, they both affect the same class feature, smite evil, and whilst a reasonable dm might allow them together, combining the penalties, by RAW I can't see how it works. Has there been an errata or comment by paizo staff?
Since neither the hospitaler nor the sacred servant archetypes replace Smite Evil with something else, nor does it alter the smite evil ability to do something entirely different, it's still there, and still valid to replace. That, and it alters the smite evil ability to do the exact same thing, so there's no real conflict.
Generally speaking, it's not something that would be allowed in PFS play, but as I don't concern myself overmuch with PFS in my recommendations, there should not be a problem with it.
I did notice a serious lack of Necromatic Affinity in your antipaladin suggestions.
That was purposeful.