My very long playing group is switching over from 3.5 to Pathfinder and I want to get some rule basics regarding ability score bonuses and damage right from the beginning. I am comfortable creating house rules but this is a very fundamental rule question that effects all kind of ways ability scores can be effected like spells, magic items, poison, disease, etc. If we go to a convention tournament I would like to be following the ‘official’ rules.
This post is long but only because in my search for an answer on the message board all I found were confusing and conflicting answers that seem to express opinion with little bases from the rulebook.
My fundamental example question is does Bull’s Strength spell add +2 damage or +3 damage when using a Two-Handed Weapon.
My following of the rules says +2 damage but that does not appear to be the popular answer.
My following of the rules is >
What does Bull’s Strength do?
Bull’s Strength
The subject becomes stronger. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, adding the usual benefits to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, and other uses of the Strength modifier.
The pertinent part of that quote is “spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength” all the rest of it is condensed information that over simplifies which can create confusion. If the extraneous information provided in the Bull's Strength spell confuses the issue with people the Barbarian Rage ability could be exchanged in this example. There are many ways to get a bonus to Strength. They should all work the same.
So what does a “+4 enhancement bonus to Strength” do?
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
Strength: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
The relevant ability is “Strength”.
So for every two points of bonus to Strength, apply +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed under Strength which are:
- Strength-based skill checks
- Melee attack rolls
- Weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength)
- Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger)
- Combat Maneuver Defense
So how does this bonus to skills and the listed statistics interact with the Two-Handed Weapon rules?
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don’t get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
The Two-Handed Weapon damage rules have no effect since the Strength bonus is not one of the listed statistics under the rules for temporary increases to ability scores.
So Bull’s Strength does not interact specially with Two-Handed weapons. It adds +2 to Two-Handed Weapon damage. In fact Bull’s Strength adds +2 damage to all Weapon damage rolls, including Off-Hand Weapon, Secondary attacks, whatever, ALL being the key word.
Now some would use real world logic and say that the spell makes you stronger and that does not seem ‘right’ or ‘accurate’ which I would agree with using real world logic. But I assume this is a decision made for game design reasons and tempo during gaming combat. So if a player has four different sources that could increase their strength during combat they do not have to be constantly recalculating even or odd ability scores and how they might round when multiplied by 50% or 150%. They can just cast Bull’s Strength then add +2 to the attack number and +2 to the damage number on their character sheet, then cast Rage and add another +1/+1 to attack/damage for +3/+3 total, Bull’s Strength wears off then +1/+1 total with very little figuring while in the thick of combat. For the same reason encumbrance is not effected. And for the exact same reason the concept of Negative Levels that give a -1 penalty to lots of stuff was created instead of having to recalculate your entire character from true level loss in D&D 3.5 then later it becoming permanent after 24 hours and you can do all the calculating and updating your character sheet hopefully when other players are not waiting on your character to swing. It is the same idea with temporary and permanent ability adjustments; temporary for streamline combat; permanent for updated and reprinted character sheet.
Am I missing something in the rules? Is there errata I don't know about? I don’t want to teach all my players this new Pathfinder concept of temporary ability bonuses and then it not being the official way they might encounter at a Pathfinder Society Organized Play event.
Thanks for any insight that can be provided.
PFS-wise, I would assume they would use old rules for 1-1/2 times bonus for two-handed. That said, I don't play pfs, and am no expert in that field. Dotted and waiting for further posts before I hit FAQ .
I think this is unforeseen side-effect of changing the way the bonuses to ability scores work. It might be RAW by very strict reading but I doubt it would be RAI. Actually it could argued one way or another on RAW level (does Strength bonus when speaking about damage equivalent to Strength-based weapon damage bonus? if yes then 1-1/2 multiplier also applies to Strength-based weapon damage bonus).
I don't see this as an unforeseen side-effect of the temporary ability bonus rules.
I believe it was intended as a sacrifice of accuracy for the sake of less recalculations during combat in an attempt to streamline spell effects in combat. Coming from a high level 3.5 gaming environment where players could often have 4 or 5 short term sources effecting their strength in combat this recalculation could really become a problem for people getting 50% and 150% adjustments. A couple of my players had pretty extensive charts showing their attack and damage bonuses depending on the common combinations of buffs they might have at any given moment.
Why else even distinguish between temporary and permanent bonuses. They could have just as simply said anytime an ability score changes, recalculate your entire character (which is what D&D did). It would be more accurate and what happens anyway if the ability bonus becomes permanent but it really can slow down play and kill a dramatic combat scene.
It hurts the two-handed combat style compared to the two-weapon combat style in regard to bonuses but on the flip side when taking ability damage two-handed weapons are not effected as much.
Four points of damage to strength would cause a -2 not -3 to weapon damage when using a two-handed weapon.
It is not quite a fair trade as ability bonuses are more common that ability damage but it eases the sting some for the two-handed weapon users.
By comparison it helps two weapon users. Full temp STR bonus to off-hand?
Why else even distinguish between temporary and permanent bonuses.
I can answer this one: it's because a temporary bonus doesn't allow you to qualify for things like feats, whereas a 'permanent' bonus (defined in-game as simply having a temporary bonus for more than 24 hours) does. A Bull's Strength spell isn't going to ever become a 'permanent' bonus, but a Belt of Physical Might can.
By comparison it helps two weapon users. Full temp STR bonus to off-hand?
Yes, under the temporary ability bonus rules an off-hand attack would get 100% temp STR bonus to damage. A two weapon user would get 100% temp STR bonus on two attacks while a two-handed weapon user would get 100% temp STR bonus on one attack.
So the temporary ability bonus rules benefits the two-weapon fighter more than the two-handed weapon fighter. Plus 2 damage to two attacks is better than plus 2 damage to one attack.
But as a small consolation, temporary ability damage hurts the two-handed weapon fighter less. Minus 2 damage to one attack is better than minus 2 damage to two attacks.
Why else even distinguish between temporary and permanent bonuses.I can answer this one: it's because a temporary bonus doesn't allow you to qualify for things like feats, whereas a 'permanent' bonus (defined in-game as simply having a temporary bonus for more than 24 hours) does. A Bull's Strength spell isn't going to ever become a 'permanent' bonus, but a Belt of Physical Might can.
True that is what the rule does but that does not explain why the rule would be created.
I do not believe the temporary ability bonus rule would be needed to limit selection of things like feats due to a temporary ability bonus. From a game design point of view allowing the selection of things like feats would be very little difference from allowing their selection from things like a Belt of Physical Might. In both cases the feats would not work when the bonus went away which would be a simplification of the rules which is normally a good thing in game design.
A player would have to be quite bold though to take a feat based on a spell. This is a nice facet of the rule to limit weirdness like this though I don't see it as the primary reason.
More important I believe the temporary ability bonus rules prevent situations like in 3.5 where:
Character sheet says: 2d6+11 damage
Then the character takes 1 STR damage so the player goes back to his STR and starts recalculating everything over.
17 STR = +3 bonus
2-Handed (150%) = +4
Weapon Specialization (+2) = +6
Magic Weapon (+3) = +9
Ah, my new damage is 2d6+9.
But wait, I take 2 more STR damage. So start at beginning and recalculate.
Bull's Strength and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful are cast, recalculate but with more steps. More spells are cast, more recalculations with more steps as more spells are layered on. Each time starting back at STR and calculation all the way through remembering to add everything that might be effecting you at that moment. Remember not just STR adjustments but any spells or effects that add damage bonuses.
Contrast with temporary ability bonus rules.
Character sheet says: 2d6+11 damage
1 STR damage = no effect regardless of whether STR is even or odd number
3 STR damage = -1 to damage, new damage 2d6+10
Bull Strength = +2 damage, new damage 2d6+12
Spells that add +2 stacking STR and +2 damage = 2d6+15
Bull Strength dispelled = -2 damage so 2d6+13
No need to ever go back to the beginning and recalculate through all your spells, abilities and effects. Every new effect just takes your current damage and adjust it.
Not as accurate but streamline combat calculations at the gaming table.
Save the more accurate calculations for permanent ability bonuses only that are less likely to change.
Ultimately though my main concern is not the reason for the rule design but if I am interpreting it correct.
Several pages are dedicated to the temporary ability bonus and damage rules, they are quite a departure from 3.5 rules with significant ramifications, and they seem mostly ignored by the player base. Maybe it is because they are stuck in the back of the book in an Appendix.
really?
strength damage was easy to work out in 3.5...
first know whether your strength is an odd or an even number.
for one handed weapon users with it is -1 to hit and damage for each odd amount for strength damage taken (-1,-3,-5...) if your initial strength is an odd number, and -1 to hit and damage for each even amount of strength damage you take (-2,-4,-6...) if your initial strength is even.
For two-handed users it is the same, but you subtract an extra -1 from damage for every other time you lower your bonus to hit (so every other one gets -1/-2 instead of -1/-1) starting on either the first or second lowering depending on whether your initial strength bonus was even or odd to begin with.
So if your initial strength is a 30 (+10 bonus) a two handed user gets +10/+15 if you takes 2 points of strength damage he gets -1/-2 dropping to +9/+13, at 2 more points of strength damage he gets another -1/-1 dropping to +8/+12, 2 more points of strength damage drops it by -1/-2 and so forth.
no need to do any huge recalculations just some simple subtractions from your total.
I believe it was intended as a sacrifice of accuracy for the sake of less recalculations during combat in an attempt to streamline spell effects in combat.
I agree. The temporary score rules also prevent cases like a cleric getting infinite channels by putting on a headband of charisma, channeling, then taking it off.
really?
strength damage was easy to work out in 3.5...first know whether your strength is an odd or an even number.
for one handed weapon users with it is -1 to hit and damage for each odd amount for strength damage taken (-1,-3,-5...) if your initial strength is an odd number, and -1 to hit and damage for each even amount of strength damage you take (-2,-4,-6...) if your initial strength is even.
For two-handed users it is the same, but you subtract an extra -1 from damage for every other time you lower your bonus to hit (so every other one gets -1/-2 instead of -1/-1) starting on either the first or second lowering depending on whether your initial strength bonus was even or odd to begin with.
So if your initial strength is a 30 (+10 bonus) a two handed user gets +10/+15 if you takes 2 points of strength damage he gets -1/-2 dropping to +9/+13, at 2 more points of strength damage he gets another -1/-1 dropping to +8/+12, 2 more points of strength damage drops it by -1/-2 and so forth.
no need to do any huge recalculations just some simple subtractions from your total.
I would argue that what you just explained is not 'just some simple subtractions' and is far from simple.
Sure I understand but things like remember to do something every other time or if your initial strength is even or odd, but that is only for one-handed, if it is off-handed do it this way, and if it is two-handed do it this way make it not simple. Are there tricks that help? Can you do it in our head? Sure. But that does not make it simple.
Simple is something I can explain to my young daughters or a friend that has had three beers and just wants to swing.
P.S. Those two groups are never at the same gaming session. :)