I'm facing a problem with a fellow player (who is also our group's "main" GM) interfering with the current adventure's GM.
Lets call this "main" GM, Alpha.)
Alpha is our group's "main" GM and the most senior in terms of age and time spend playing Pathfinder. He runs our group's main Serpent's Skull adventure and we play at his house.
Alpha is great as a GM, and we enjoy playing at his table. Early on, we decided that we would spend every other month or so playing some other Pathfinder Modules or homebrews, ran by the rest of us in the group. This is to allow Alpha to prepare the next section of adventure.
The problem starts when Alpha becomes a player. He takes on a very "commanding" role and makes a point to dictate what the party does.
This is far from normal, as we usually try to reach a consensus when options differ. With him, we need to make an effort to convince him otherwise, or he would just shoot us down or berate us for disagreeing with him.
This "problem" wasn't that bad at first, but as the months past, his commanding attitude is getting more prominent.
Recently, Alpha started interfering, rule lawyering or disagreeing with certain rules at the table. This reach the point where he even berates the current GM for certain actions that the GM made in the advanture. (Both in-combat and out.)
Alpha would criticize the amount of monsters send against the party, the decisions or actions of NPCs and Monsters, complain about the rest of us not supporting or healing him enough, questions why certain powers don't behave the way he thinks they should or just plain panic whenever a player drops.
He just don't seem to trust any of us to GM for him. And it shows.
What should/can I do as a player?
We are months into Serpent's Skull, and don't feel like leaving the group over this.
We also do love his GMing, and our playing location is his house, but his behavior is getting far from pleasant as a player...
... and it doesn't help that since he is older, we don't feel appropriate/able to tell him.
Help?
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If I was in the new GM's shoes, I would talk privately with Alpha and explain to him that I cannot keep on GMing with him being that disruptive.
And if he should retaliate by stopping his Serpent's Skull campaign, then I would be sad but also relieved for getting rid of a false friend. It makes that much more space for new true friends to step in.
Alpha needs to be more mindful of his role in the group. If he's not DMing he should wait for his advice to be solicited rather than force it on the current DM. If he has disagreements with the DM, he should bring them up after the session and in a polite manner.
He sounds like he's treating this as "his" group rather than as "the group." I would suggest bringing it up before the next session where he is a player. Let him know you really enjoy it when he runs, but that it would be nice for the group as a whole if he eased up when he played. It would allow the others to have good roleplaying opportunities and everyone would have more fun. See how he responds to that before deciding whether he needs to remain a part of the group or not (or if you do, personally). Good luck!
Communication is the key. Approach "Alpha" in a calm, respectful way. Don't berate him, but point out his behaviors that are causing problems. He may not realize that his actions are disruptive.
It seems maybe alpha has spent a little too much time behind the gm screen and has forgotten there are many kinds of games and many of them are fun. Often if you have been THE gm for a long long time you forget what its like to be a player. You forget that its not up to you and in fact you shouldn't be the one driving the story forward all the time. You also forget that your understanding of the rules is not law at the table when you are on the other side of the screen.
I would have a conversation with him about the issue. Talk calmly and openly about what you dont like. Sit down ahead of time and write down specific examples, so if he asks what do you mean, you can explain with an exmaple (do not bring this list with you to speak with him, just use it to organize your thoughts on his behaviors you dont like).
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Remind the GM about Rule 0 and that while he is a player he doesn´t enforce it.
As his fellow players talk to him and show him the error in his ways, he might understand after all as a GM it's his job to prevent something like this.
If all fail try it in character, let your characters tell him that they don´t like the his style.
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I'm facing a problem with a fellow player (who is also our group's "main" GM) interfering with the current adventure's GM.
Lets call this "main" GM, Alpha.)Alpha is our group's "main" GM and the most senior in terms of age and time spend playing Pathfinder. He runs our group's main Serpent's Skull adventure and we play at his house.
Alpha is great as a GM, and we enjoy playing at his table. Early on, we decided that we would spend every other month or so playing some other Pathfinder Modules or homebrews, ran by the rest of us in the group. This is to allow Alpha to prepare the next section of adventure.
The problem starts when Alpha becomes a player. He takes on a very "commanding" role and makes a point to dictate what the party does.
This is far from normal, as we usually try to reach a consensus when options differ. With him, we need to make an effort to convince him otherwise, or he would just shoot us down or berate us for disagreeing with him.
This "problem" wasn't that bad at first, but as the months past, his commanding attitude is getting more prominent.Recently, Alpha started interfering, rule lawyering or disagreeing with certain rules at the table. This reach the point where he even berates the current GM for certain actions that the GM made in the advanture. (Both in-combat and out.)
Alpha would criticize the amount of monsters send against the party, the decisions or actions of NPCs and Monsters, complain about the rest of us not supporting or healing him enough, questions why certain powers don't behave the way he thinks they should or just plain panic whenever a player drops.
He just don't seem to trust any of us to GM for him. And it shows.
What should/can I do as a player?
We are months into Serpent's Skull, and don't feel like leaving the group over this.
We also do love his GMing, and our playing location is his house, but his behavior is getting far from pleasant as a player...
... and it doesn't help that since he is older, we don't feel appropriate/able to...
I had a logical response lined up, but then realized it's all for moot, because....
....BIG, COMFY COUCH TRUMPS ALL ARGUMENTS!
Well, I am fairly experienced as both a player & DM, and seriously, I am going to suggest something no one else has, something just the opposite of what I usually suggest and what other have suggested (which is usually the best idea). In other words, I am going to say- DON’T talk to him about this.
Just drop the other DM’s game for now, saying you “want to concentrate on Alpha’s great game” (which it is).
Then AFTER his ‘turn” as DM is over, then start the other game. Then see if the behavior continues. If so, then talk to him.
Basically what is happening here is that Alpha is too used to being DM. Thus, if you guys “turn on him” (as he will see it) you may lose him as DM (& even host)
However after he’s no longer behind the screen at all, then you can have the talk- but it may no longer be needed
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Well, I am fairly experienced as both a player & DM, and seriously, I am going to suggest something no one else has, something just the opposite of what I usually suggest and what other have suggested (which is usually the best idea). In other words, I am going to say- DON’T talk to him about this.
Just drop the other DM’s game for now, saying you “want to concentrate on Alpha’s great game” (which it is).
Then AFTER his ‘turn” as DM is over, then start the other game. Then see if the behavior continues. If so, then talk to him.
Basically what is happening here is that Alpha is too used to being DM. Thus, if you guys “turn on him” (as he will see it) you may lose him as DM (& even host)
However after he’s no longer behind the screen at all, then you can have the talk- but it may no longer be needed
This focuses on preserving the fun they have playing his Serpent's Skull campaign through manipulating Alpha (by not telling him the truth and feelings behind the decision). However it does not deal at once (which is usually the only way to really deal with such cases) with the problem player (ie, Alpha).
I find it very likely that if nothing strict is done now to adress this issue, feelings will simmer and a more violent clash will happen later, maybe completely ruining the Serpent's Skull campaign.
Have you tried making your alternate game a different system? If possible, one that Alpha isn't an expert at.
Have you tried making your alternate game a different system? If possible, one that Alpha isn't an expert at.
That's what I was going to suggest. I've seen a number of players who act like Alpha. In fact, I'm ashamed to admit that I've been guilty of some of those infractions myself (e.g. second-guessing the number/type/tactics of the monsters that the GM sends against us).
A possible solution would be to play a game using a more light-hearted system like Toon or Teenagers from Outer Space. Then Alpha can be in charge of the "crunchier" game when it's his turn to GM Pathfinder.
As long as you keep your cool, you can address the issue at the table or away from the table.
Depending on the people involved, I'd check that there is at least another player who I trust that think the same and who is also able to keep his cool (if you are the only one to have problem think again and make sure that the problem isn't you), but I'd avoid trying to rise all the players against him: even if I were "alpha" and I were wrong, I would not like having all of my friend attacking me with premeditation. Avoid by all mean this we-are-talking-at-your-back-all-the-time scenario.
When this happen again, just point out as a de-facto matter that he would not like if one of the player did what he is doing and that at that table you already have one GM and that's enough. Don't try to discuss the issue, the key is just reminding him stuff he should know, not try to convince him.
Keep in mind that experience do matter: at my tables we have both experienced and inexperienced players and GMs (one new GM who played for as little as six months) and we used to see something similar happening all the time (I did the same, being the one with the most solid knowledge of the rules and the one who spend the most time on the boards). In our case we noticed what was going on and we agreed on not making it harder for the new GM, and now it all works perfectly.
If you really think that you need to use tricks, one could be this. Talk with the next GM beforehand and when you play do exactly what he is doing. Chances are that alpha will correct your behavior: at this point you admit your error but point out that he does the same (or let the GM point this out). Also, don't expect to see immediate results, just the fact that the cat's out of the bag should solve the problem in time.
As a avid rules enthusiast, I often find myself second-guessing my fellow players and GM, though only in good faith of course! :)
I find a full discussion with the player in question, the GM, and the other players helps to iron out many problems. Set up some time after the next session for this :P
This focuses on preserving the fun they have playing his Serpent's Skull campaign through manipulating Alpha (by not telling him the truth and feelings behind the decision). However it does not deal at once (which is usually the only way to really deal with such cases) with the problem player (ie, Alpha).
I find it very likely that if nothing strict is done now to adress this issue, feelings will simmer and a more violent clash will happen later, maybe completely ruining the Serpent's Skull campaign.
It does, but it also focuses on leaving in place a DM who everyone likes and thinks is great according to the OP. Some long term DMs just can’t be DM and a players at the same time, but become a Ok player after they step out behind the screen.
My 35+ years or experience here tells me that Alpha will calm down and not be so bad after he isn’t DM. Yes, maybe he’ll need a little time to relax and maybe someone can have a little talk with him.
Right now is a very bad time to force this issue to a head, as there is simply no reason to. Just let Alpha finish his campaign, which everyone is enjoying.
If you plan on continuing to play pathfinder using another GM occasionally during the time between modules, then your current GM needs to speak with him, preferably 1 on 1. Basically he needs to say something to the effect of:
“Look, you’re a great GM and we all respect your ability but when I’m running a game you shouldn’t be critiquing or criticizing my game at the table. Just as I’m sure you wouldn’t like it if the group were to constantly question or complain about everything you do. If you have suggestions I’d love to hear them. But after the game, then I can think about them and possibly adjust things for the future. Even then realize even then I reserve the right to do things my way when I GM, if I don’t agree with something I’m going to do what I think is best. All I’m really trying to say is give me the same respect we give you.”
As to the problem dominating the group that can be a common problem for experienced GM’s. They are so accustomed to running the game and know so much about it that taking the lead in the group often seems second nature. Unfortunately, some forget that it is, first and foremost, a group effort and they should ask for a consensus on actions that effect others and not assume everyone always want to do the same thing.
Two important things that help with this are, first to make sure other players speak up when they want to do something. For example, if the group in at someone’s house and alpha says, “Let’s head back to the inn and ask the innkeeper…”. Then the players should feel free to speak up and say that they’d like to do something else. If they don’t then apha has every right to assume everyone’s ok with heading over to the inn.
The other thing to watch for is the language used. For example, if above alpha had said, “We head back to the inn and ask the innkeeper…”. The GM needs to make a point of asking if everyone is in agreement or perhaps even if everyone else is going with him. This lets them know that he doesn’t get to say what their characters do and subtlety points it out to alpha as well.
On that note, there is one big red flag that needs dealt with immediately if it ever happens. Let’s say that one of the other player’s is playing a rogue named Steve and the group comes upon a large stone door while dungeon delving. Alpha then says, “Steve checks the door for traps.”. Stop him in his tracks right there. Under no circumstances should he ever tell the GM what someone else’s character is doing. Imo this is one of the worst things that a GM can allow.
Personally, my response would probably be something along the lines of raising an eyebrow and saying something to the effect of, “Excuse me?” After which I’d shake my head and say, “You don’t ever get to say what someone else’s character does. Now if you’d like to ask him to search for traps that’s fine”.
Older, younger, friends or not, stepping over that line needs to be dealt with immediately and should leave no doubt whatsoever on where you stand. Hopefully that hasn’t happened, as long as he’s merely speaking for the group the GM can usually curtail it by simply making a point of asking the other party members what they do. Though even then if it keeps happening all the time the GM may need to eventually want take alpha aside and bring it to his attention.
There's a lot of good advice here. These are some of the toughest situations at a gaming table, since it's all about interpersonal relationships, group dynamics, and the specific play culture of your group. I sympathize with your Alpha in part, since I am also usually a DM and even though I love being a player, sometimes it's hard to turn off the DM brain that's constantly saying, "Is this how I would do it?"
For me, I try to remember that part of my job as a fellow player is pretty similar to an important DM task - making sure everybody has fun. I'm pretty social and gregarious, so I often tend to jump in and talk immediately, which can sometimes shove the rest of the players into secondary positions. I try to remember that everybody needs a chance in the spotlight and create situations for that as a player as well as a DM.
I think everyone else on this thread is right, there's no other way to deal with this than have a talk with Alpha in a calm, friendly way. He still might take it the wrong way though. Hopefully his better nature will win out and he'll see his way to moderating his Alpha behavior when he's a player.
Trying some new venues, like others have suggested, sounds like a great idea. First of all, it minimizes the risk of Alpha taking his toys - his gamespace - and going home to punish everyone. Secondly, playing at someone else's home or a neutral place like a gameshop might help send a subtle message that it's not Alpha's group - it's everybody's group.